Opinion Our problems run deeper than Cloke

[Daicosssssssssss]

I was at the game against the kangaroos. All I saw was bad delivery into the forward line.
When Dawes and Cloke lead, the midfield players generally kick it up in the air hoping for dawes and cloke to mark overhead. It reminded me of the days of Sav and Anthony Rocca.

Just kick it straight to their chests. Chances are 90% of the time they will mark it.
Put it this way how did Jarman used to pass to dunstall?

 

[SuperSub17]

For me I would love the club to SACK Cloke now but we probably lose our compensation pick so he has us between a rock and a hard place. He is playing like he has an agreement with another club. The players seem to be treating him like that. We're not idiots. On a positive note we should have money during free agency to grab a decent player.

I love Bucks but he coached like a rookie last night.

Free agency doesn't work that way...there exists an option to match any offer and then he can only leave via trade or the draft. If the players are annoyed at him it will be because he has not carried himself well over the season.

For those who haven't worked it out:
Young players = inconsistency. We still have Sinclair, Elliott, Seedsman, Mooney (and even Clarke) in the side. If and when we get back Toovey, Johnson, Krakouer, Goldsack and of course Swan, some of that inconsistency will disappear.

 

[Krueger]

Regarding Brown, coming back from a reco for a bigger player is a two year proposition both in mind and body. It's all about confidence. Cloke is obvious plus we're hurting him with delivery. Clubs have worked out how we delivered to Cloke in the past so we can't put the ball in the area that he used to run in to. The loss of ball in the middle puts a spanner in the works in terms of how others play. I think Wellingham may be a victim of that. Too much to say about that to write it here. Teams isolating our backs was always going to have an effect on the way Shaw and O'Brien play. O'Brien was always suspect under the high ball and body contact on his man. It's highlighted now because opposition deliver the ball differently against us now.

Clubs have worked out our press, gameplan, how we deliver to Cloke, how to zone off etc. How many more excuses can be made for our poor form? Why cant be work out another clubs gameplan i.e. Hawthorn, Carlton etc?

How can almost all of our players be so badly out of form for so long? I dont see Gary Ablett out of form due to being surrounded by young players. Clearly the message isnt getting through to the players, or they are just not listening and when they do it is not working.

 

[Checkside35]

Clubs have worked out our press, gameplan, how we deliver to Cloke, how to zone off etc. How many more excuses can be made for our poor form? Why cant be work out another clubs gameplan i.e. Hawthorn, Carlton etc?

How can almost all of our players be so badly out of form for so long? I dont see Gary Ablett out of form due to being surrounded by young players. Clearly the message isnt getting through to the players, or they are just not listening and when they do it is not working.

If teams work you out, it's not an excuse but a legitimate reason for poor performances. You isolate our backs and they'll struggle. You double up on Cloke and our young blokes don't get front and square, you clear the ball easily. Sinclair, Elliot and Fasolo aren't great at locking the ball in = simple fact. Sinclair tries his guts out but is an inconsistent kid. The press worked for one flag. Geelong blew holes in it the next year. As for Hawthorn and Carlton, we haven't been watching them for the past few seasons. Most sides with the required talent have devised plans to take us down.

It's not as if Buckley walked in on a blank canvass. MM had a rigid game style in place and it will take time to dismantle and build another. Ablett's a midfielder so it starts with him. On the other hand, Cloke and Dawes have to rely on others not only to get it to them but to crumb off them when they bring the ball to ground or look to dish off.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Clubs have worked out our press, gameplan, how we deliver to Cloke, how to zone off etc. How many more excuses can be made for our poor form? Why cant be work out another clubs gameplan i.e. Hawthorn, Carlton etc?

How can almost all of our players be so badly out of form for so long? I dont see Gary Ablett out of form due to being surrounded by young players. Clearly the message isnt getting through to the players, or they are just not listening and when they do it is not working.

I get the feeling you thought we were a much better side than what we actually were. WE did not win the premiership last year. In fact, we were beaten in all 3 games vs the premiers= we were not good enough to win the flag. There was a real lack of mature teams last year, making it a 2 horse race with 1 outsider (Hawks).
When you add the losses that Bucks has had to put up with this offseason...Malthouse (yeah, he prob was never going to stay, but that was the contract in place), Neeld, Watters as coaches, Davis and Brown as players. During the year we have lost Ball, Krakouer, Keefe, MaCaffer and Johnson pretty much for the whole year. During the year we have had 1 player play all 20 games. Swan, Reid, Pendles, Shaw, Wellingham and Thomas have missed 4-6 games each. Tarrant and Didak have barely played at all.
Now think about that for a second, and add in the Cloke controversy and his poor form this year and it has been a marvelous coaching performance to have us in contention for finals let alone top 4.

We may bow out quickly in the finals, and we have good reason to considering the tiring young bodies in our side. But if we somehow manage to play the Swans in a Qualifying final week 1 and manage to win it, we will be into a home Prelim final.

 

[Krueger]

If teams work you out, it's not an excuse but a legitimate reason for poor performances. You isolate our backs and they'll struggle. You double up on Cloke and our young blokes don't get front and square, you clear the ball easily. Sinclair, Elliot and Fasolo aren't great at locking the ball in = simple fact. Sinclair tries his guts out but is an inconsistent kid. The press worked for one flag. Geelong blew holes in it the next year. As for Hawthorn and Carlton, we haven't been watching them for the past few seasons. Most sides with the required talent have devised plans to take us down.

It's not as if Buckley walked in on a blank canvass. MM had a rigid game style in place and it will take time to dismantle and build another. Ablett's a midfielder so it starts with him. On the other hand, Cloke and Dawes have to rely on others not only to get it to them but to crumb off them when they bring the ball to ground or look to dish off.

I like your optimism and sounds good in theory but by now things should have been sorted. 20 weeks is plenty to fine tune a gameplan especially with our list and its not getting any better. If your think our players can all of a sudden become elite kicks and play a Hawthorn style of gameplan then it s just not going to happen.

 

[SuperSub17]

If teams work you out, it's not an excuse but a legitimate reason for poor performances. You isolate our backs and they'll struggle. You double up on Cloke and our young blokes don't get front and square, you clear the ball easily. Sinclair, Elliot and Fasolo aren't great at locking the ball in = simple fact. Sinclair tries his guts out but is an inconsistent kid. The press worked for one flag. Geelong blew holes in it the next year. As for Hawthorn and Carlton, we haven't been watching them for the past few seasons. Most sides with the required talent have devised plans to take us down.

It's not as if Buckley walked in on a blank canvass. MM had a rigid game style in place and it will take time to dismantle and build another. Ablett's a midfielder so it starts with him. On the other hand, Cloke and Dawes have to rely on others not only to get it to them but to crumb off them when they bring the ball to ground or look to dish off.

I agree, I've heard so many people say "we look shit in every one of our losses", without giving it the thought that maybe it was our opposition making us look shit. I just think a few teams have worked us out and when we come up against them either in the finals or next year, we have to try something else. As far as I am concerned we have the game plan to beat Sydney, Adelaide, Geelong and West Coast.

 

[Krueger]

I get the feeling you thought we were a much better side than what we actually were. WE did not win the premiership last year. In fact, we were beaten in all 3 games vs the premiers= we were not good enough to win the flag. There was a real lack of mature teams last year, making it a 2 horse race with 1 outsider (Hawks).

Huh? We were a great side and lost to a great side in the GF. At the end of last year it all fell to pieces, injuries, Heath Shaw brain fade, coaching fiasco etc all contributed to the GF loss. This year we have only played 2 decent games, vs Adeliade and the Swans. The rest have been patchy and ordinary.

Now think about that for a second, and add in the Cloke controversy and his poor form this year and it has been a marvelous coaching performance to have us in contention for finals let alone top 4.

Without being disrespectful I do not agree with that. I think our star players with their natural telent have carried the club the whole year. The win against GWS showed how bad our gameplan and structure is.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Huh? We were a great side and lost to a great side in the GF. At the end of last year it all fell to pieces, injuries, Heath Shaw brain fade, coaching fiasco etc all contributed to the GF loss. This year we have only played 2 decent games, vs Adeliade and the Swans. The rest have been patchy and ordinary.



Without being disrespectful I do not agree with that. I think our star players with their natural telent have carried the club the whole year. The win against GWS showed how bad our gameplan and structure is.

So you give the excuses for last year as a reason why we didn't win the flag, but this year when we have had a million more excuses for being off our game, you claim it is all game plan related??
Look at the amount of players we had last year who pretty much played every game, and now look at those same guys this year. It is bound to have an effect, missing a stretch of games, losing match fitness, putting extra pressure and stress on younger guys who then, as a result aren't able to perform their roles as well.

One thing about our gameplan I do think is terrible at the minute is defending of kickins. It's almost laughable how lazy and disinterested some of our markers are.

 

[Krueger]

So you give the excuses for last year as a reason why we didn't win the flag, but this year when we have had a million more excuses for being off our game, you claim it is all game plan related??
Look at the amount of players we had last year who pretty much played every game, and now look at those same guys this year. It is bound to have an effect, missing a stretch of games, losing match fitness, putting extra pressure and stress on younger guys who then, as a result aren't able to perform their roles as well.

One thing about our gameplan I do think is terrible at the minute is defending of kickins. It's almost laughable how lazy and disinterested some of our markers are.

Yes we lost the GF last year to Geelong, no shame in that with the reasons mentioned. But to play so poorly in so many games and looking totally disfunctional is the problem. The whole team at times has looked disinterested, been unaccountable and downright lazy. We were renowned for being the best drilled team for a long time which has totally fallen apart this year. Its like a ship without a rudder, sometimes on course but at other times all over the place.

With the type of football we have displayed this year it is amazing we are in the top 4 which I put down to individual player performances grinding out wins.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Yes we lost the GF last year to Geelong, no shame in that with the reasons mentioned. But to play so poorly in so many games and looking totally disfunctional is the problem. The whole team at times has looked disinterested, been unaccountable and downright lazy. We were renowned for being the best drilled team for a long time which has totally fallen apart this year. Its like a ship without a rudder, sometimes on course but at other times all over the place.

With the type of football we have displayed this year it is amazing we are in the top 4 which I put down to individual player performances grinding out wins.

I agree that we haven't played great football this year. But we have beaten last years premiers twice. That is two more times than last year. When is the last time you can remember us being so badly hurt by injuries in one year?
I remember thinking at the start of the year that we had a decent shot at the premiership only IF we didn't get too many injuries, given the appaling lack of seasoned depth on the list. Now we have gone 20 games and won 15 of them, you say mainly due to individual performances? Of Who? Only Swan and Pendles have managed to stay on their 2011 level. Whether it is by injuries or not, REid has dropped off, Thomas has dropped off, Cloke has dropped off, Tarrant has dropped off not to mention Ball and Krakouer and Davis and Brown being absent completely.
Beams and Sidebottom have flourished this year given more responsibility. Surely you give some credit to the coaches??

Thinking that Pendlles, Beams and SWan are the only reason we are winning games is baffling. These guys might win a lot of the ball, but none of them are negative midfielders, and it means we are being torched the other way this year as well. We are missing the defensive ability of Luke Ball, clearly.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Allow me to explain why Cloke (and Dawes) are the problem.

When you have every player performing to their required minimum level and doing what they're meant to be doing, you can implement a structure that covers the entire field. When ONE part of that structure breaks down, the WHOLE thing breaks down.

With Cloke and Dawes not creating contests, not taking marks, or kicking goals, this affect any structure Bucks attempts to implement, why? you say?

With forwards not kicking goals or applying pressure, who is going to do it? Midfielders. This means the mids are spending more time forward running to try and create the goals and apply the pressure the forward aren't.

Guess what this means? It means that if the goal isn't scored, the ball is going back the other way without a midfield to help out the defenders which makes THEM look like they're not doind their job, which in actual fact, they technically are. Nathan Brown did quite well on Petrie given the delivery Petrie was given and the amount and ease of whihc it was getting down there. Tarrant went back and was so effective that Brad Scott specifically mentioned trying to drag him out of there at 3 quarter time. Also, after the second quarter, the game was basically dead even when Tarrant went back there. The damage was done in the second quarter.

The only area where I blame Buckley, is that the Tarrant/Shaw move should have been made at quarter time. The bad signs were there in the first quarter, and the move should have been made then. By half time, the damage was done.

I'll actually defend Jolly, because he was more than likely playing hurt after the battering he took last week. Yeah he wasn't great, but it wasn't Jolly's worst game.

 

[SuperSub17]

Allow me to explain why Cloke (and Dawes) are the problem.

When you have every player performing to their required minimum level and doing what they're meant to be doing, you can implement a structure that covers the entire field. When ONE part of that structure breaks down, the WHOLE thing breaks down.

With Cloke and Dawes not creating contests, not taking marks, or kicking goals, this affect any structure Bucks attempts to implement, why? you say?

With forwards not kicking goals or applying pressure, who is going to do it? Midfielders. This means the mids are spending more time forward running to try and create the goals and apply the pressure the forward aren't.

Guess what this means? It means that if the goal isn't scored, the ball is going back the other way without a midfield to help out the defenders which makes THEM look like they're not doind their job, which in actual fact, they technically are. Nathan Brown did quite well on Petrie given the delivery Petrie was given and the amount and ease of whihc it was getting down there. Tarrant went back and was so effective that Brad Scott specifically mentioned trying to drag him out of there at 3 quarter time. Also, after the second quarter, the game was basically dead even when Tarrant went back there. The damage was done in the second quarter.

The only area where I blame Buckley, is that the Tarrant/Shaw move should have been made at quarter time. The bad signs were there in the first quarter, and the move should have been made then. By half time, the damage was done.

I'll actually defend Jolly, because he was more than likely playing hurt after the battering he took last week. Yeah he wasn't great, but it wasn't Jolly's worst game.

All very good points. The signs were definitely there but it was during the second qtr (which we lost by 21 points) which we lost the game, no doubt about it.

 

[theroach78]

All this talk about how teams have worked out our press and the like, when really, only three teams that play a running game have beaten us.

When it's contested, we are in our element, but with the future gameplan looking as though it'll be a non-stop run and carry, there's been a skew towards pacy younger/smaller players being chosen for our team. They just need time.

Most people have nailed it in here, though. A lot of the kicks to the forwards either were too short, too high, or going to Jamie Elliott who was almost nailing some great grabs against bigger players.

It just felt like North was a half-second ahead of our gameplan on Saturday night.

 

[Krueger]

All very good points. The signs were definitely there but it was during the second qtr (which we lost by 21 points) which we lost the game, no doubt about it.

I cannot remeber the last time we were in such dissaray. Heath Shaws altercation with the runner shows how frustrating it was. Clearly we lost all control in the 2nd qtr.

 

[SuperSub17]

I cannot remeber the last time we were in such dissaray. Heath Shaws altercation with the runner shows how frustrating it was. Clearly we lost all control in the 2nd qtr.

The way we played we were lucky to lose by 5 goals tbh

 

[the distributer]

All of our loses this year have been ordinary, the round 1 Hawks defeat was probably our best, the other loses were facepalm shit, flag isn't looking likely right now i must say, to be any chance we'll need to dodge the Hawks who IMO have our measure.

 

[Yonchi]

The game has gone past the idea that you can bomb it long to the forward line as your primary offensive plan. We need to look at how teams like the hawks and roos produce so many uncontested marks yet are still able to have a free-flowing style.
Believe it or not, Cloke and Dawes can mark the ball. Our very classy midfield should be providing the best service in the league to our forwards.

 

[HFF]

Forget the bombs we just put on Cloke and Dawes heads all season, when they actually do lead and get seperation on their opponents the kicks end up a metre short on the deck at their feet.

Just how exactly are these guys supposed to out mark more than just their direct opponents and then have to play like small crumbers when the delivery ends up at their feet?

Nathan Buckley said he wanted a slick ball use outfit. Same team under Malthouse and we were one of the best sides spotting up targets inside 50. We are now a rabble in terms of ball use and decision making.

 

[4#Didak#4]

I have been saying for a while our forward structure is in serious trouble and in need of emergency surgery. At about the 15 minute mark of the third quarter I declared our forward structure terminal.

I just can't see how we are going to fix it in time for finals. We seem incapable of consistently kicking winning scores. Certainly the delivery to the forwards has been terrible and on Saturday night Tony Lockett couldn't have done much better with balls kicked over heads & at the feet of forwards. Our forwards are grossly out of form so I am sure our mids have no confidence they are going to mark it whilst our forwards have no confidence that the ball will be kicked to their advantage.

I was happy to hold fire & hope things would start to click with the two big guys and the current structure. I hate hitting panic buttons, but I can barely hold my fist back from smashing that panic button.

Dawes has to stay - purely as the backup ruckman though. He gets beaten in the ruck but I prefer him to Woods as a chop out for Jolly. He competes really well in and around the contest and always works hard.

Cloke - We have to change his role. At the moment he is playing deep forward, he is out of form, is getting the best defender plus an extra one or two coming across because they know we only kick long balls to him. He will never get confidence back if we leave it this way. I think he needs to be played CHF leading well up the ground, using his tank and working back into space. Get some easy touches. I would also give him a run in the ruck on occassion, gets him involved and take out some frustration.

Time to go small up forward. Use our mids rotating through there - especially Swan. Run & carry it in, retain possession - no bombs. Our only strength at the moment is our midfield so why not play to that strength?

 

[Yonchi]

Forget the bombs we just put on Cloke and Dawes heads all season, when they actually do lead and get seperation on their opponents the kicks end up a metre short on the deck at their feet.

Just how exactly are these guys supposed to out mark more than just their direct opponents and then have to play like small crumbers when the delivery ends up at their feet?

Nathan Buckley said he wanted a slick ball use outfit. Same team under Malthouse and we were one of the best sides spotting up targets inside 50. We are now a rabble in terms of ball use and decision making.

So either the problem is how the forwards lead or how it is kicked to them. Or a combination of the two. It could be that the forwards lead in such a way that the midfielders can't kick it properly to them but I am inclined to think that the misdirected kicking to the forward line is primarily what needs addressing.

As a secondary point we were definitely not one of the best teams at spotting targets inside 50 in the Malthouse years. A few points on this:
1 - our focus was keeping the ball locked in the forward 50
2 - we regularly kicked such a high number of behinds (whether from the pressured play or where the ball was marked) that it was often an issue spoken about in the media and on these forums after games
3 - recall that we waited until the grand final replay to not bomb long to the forward line because Sam Fisher was dropping back and taking marks. Amazing that it took until the 26th game of the season to actually admit that we should direct the ball more accurately to the forward line (note that we still haven't taken the next logical step since that realisation)

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

All of our loses this year have been ordinary, the round 1 Hawks defeat was probably our best, the other loses were facepalm shit, flag isn't looking likely right now i must say, to be any chance we'll need to dodge the Hawks who IMO have our measure.

Yep.

We have to hope for Sydney first week, which then should put us into the Prelim.

Then hope Hawthorn beats Adelaide and goes to the other Prelim.

Then we can have Adelaide and roll them.

Then hopefully Sydney can give it to Hawthorn in the prelim.

Then we can have the Swans again on GF day.

That would be a dream and revenge for 03.

 

[SuperSub17]

Yep.

We have to hope for Sydney first week, which then should put us into the Prelim.

Then hope Hawthorn beats Adelaide and goes to the other Prelim.

Then we can have Adelaide and roll them.

Then hopefully Sydney can give it to Hawthorn in the prelim.

Then we can have the Swans again on GF day.

That would be a dream and revenge for 03.

Unfortuantely, chances of Sydney winning a game at the G = 0

 

[Checkside35]

I like your optimism and sounds good in theory but by now things should have been sorted. 20 weeks is plenty to fine tune a gameplan especially with our list and its not getting any better. If your think our players can all of a sudden become elite kicks and play a Hawthorn style of gameplan then it s just not going to happen.

It's not optimism. I agree that 20 weeks is time enough but we have to consider the type of players who have come in to fill gaps. With the younger players at our disposal, it would be a tough task to not only introduce them to the senior game but also change things up part way through a season in order to deal with teams like Hawthorn. Add the problems associated with Dawes (new role) and Cloke and you've got a fair effort to only drop five games to this point. If Krak, Caff and Johnson had been available for the season, I can't see how Sinclair, Elliot, Clarke, and Seedsman would have played as many games as they have.
Heard something interesting today from someone who was at the game. To him, it looked like some of the mids tended to hesitate when weighing up whether to go to a Cloke or Dawes lead. That meant uncertainty and plain butchering of the ball. He reckons that the confidence in these two is gone. Spun me out a bit. Wouldn't think anything of it if it didn't come from someone who had played a shit load of footy in the middle at VFL and SANFL level.

 

[rose jam]

I watched the game on TV and all night Darcy was blabbing on about Cloke and Dawes. I mean, did he or anyone actually watch this game? Sidey, Blair, and Pendles in particular kicked the ball about 2 metres short of the leads constantly. It was terrible. They had no chance to get any fluency and impact the game. It was like the players suddenly lost their pereption of depth at Etihad.
Clear pattern has emerged for us though, if we use the ball long forward we're toast because our smalls aren't good enough and the opposition kill us on the switch. Teams that use the short kick through the field are smashing us because we've got the wrong defensive press going.
Our backline defense is holding up well (despite the unbelievable decision to keep Brown in the team and not have Taz back there) but our run is missing.

Dane Swan will actually fix a lot of this, his presence alone would have made a huge difference as either a midfielder or forward.