Our tagger?

[The Norm]

I think we need to really begin to develop a full-time tagger. Someone who tries to shut down the oppositions best midfielder, every game.

We haven't had someone like this consistently since Licuria (whose role changed towards the end of his career anyway). Brodie did it for a while and was quite good, but it looks like we might've seen the last of him.
Rhyce Shaw has been tried there to some decent success, but is used mainly as a running half-back these days and is probably gone anyway.
I don't think Cook will be up to it ... but he's still got time on his hands.

Who do we have that could be succesfull in this role?

Marty? I think his second half of the season was excellent, and was a big improvement on 07. Has an excellent kick and should have more confidence shooting for goal on the run from 50-60m. He's been tried as a midfield tagger and done quite well, this role could be a way of helping his transition into a midfielder (if that's what Malthouse wants him to become).

Toovey: If he could get his fitness better might be a chance. I'm not sure if he'd be quick enough to go with the better midfielders in the comp. Isn't pretty when he has the ball, but is good at stopping his man from getting it. Should definitely be kept on the list for 09.

Johnson: Should be kept on the list, and if he can return to his form of 2006 should become our permanent tagger. Problem is he seems to have completely changed the way he plays since getting suspended last year ... he doesn't go in anywhere near as hard as he used to and it looks like he sees himself more as a run-and-carry type player. He was used as a tagger a few years ago when he was having his best seasons, and when fit and in reasonable form is easily in our best 22.

The only others I could see doing this that I haven't mentioned are Heater and Harry, although both are best when providing run off the backline. Harry has been played on Goodes before, and though I remember him getting beaten, it's a role he could play. He seems as though he'd be able to get the ball from clearances and has pretty good stamina ... could anyone seee Harry being used occasionally as a defensive midfielder?
Other possibility is Maxwell (based solely on his job against Thompson), but he's more of a genuine utility plays lots of different roles.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Forgot Goldsack. He's another who I could certainly see playing this role with improved fitness.

 

[sirlothie]

Clarke is the only one out of the three you named who could possibly fill this role, he has the running capacity to match it with the best of them but I think he is too much of a free spirit footballer and too creatively minded to flourish in a role such as this, he has stated his aim is to become a forward-cum-midfielder in the mould of Didak and Thomas...

John McCarthy could be a candidate. Shannon Cox on the bigger types although he is still very fringe, and I won't consider Cook or Stanley in the role for the same reason but I think McCarthy has cemented a senior berth for himself for 2009 and beyond with luck and seems a likely type to enjoy this type of midfield role.

 

[xxxWillxxx]

Maxwell

 

[mdc]

None of the above.

Clake and Cook aren't big enough or physical enough to be taggers.

Toovey is too much of a liability going the other way to be playing in the middle.

Johnson is finished.

Goldsack isn't nearly accountable enough, nor is he likely to ever have the fitness.

 

[The Norm]

That's kinda my point ... nobody seems like a natural for this role. I think it's very, very important that somebody becomes a consistent tagger, or one or two players who can do it depending on the opponent.

I'll admit I'm being overly optomistic with Johnno. McCarthy is definitely one who could play that role. I don't think Cox will ever have that mentality ... he's not physical or agressive enough. I also agree that Marty would be better suited up the ground because of his creativity and flair.

I'm interested to hear thoughts on Harry having stints in the midfield, not necessarily as a tagger? Could he do it?

Would we consider trading for a tagger? ... ideal situation someone who can take their oponent out of the game yet get lots of ball themselves, esp. cleranaces - someone in the Kane Cornes mould.

 

[Dave The Man]

I think Mick was using Toovey as a Tagger

 

[Palmer Stoat]

I've always liked the idea of playing Goldsack as a tagger. He's pretty athletic, he's tall so he won't be exploited if his man runs forward, and he's got that grit and a little aggro that the best taggers have.

 

[The Sqawka]

None of the above.

Clake and Cook aren't big enough or physical enough to be taggers.

Toovey is too much of a liability going the other way to be playing in the middle.

Johnson is finished.

Goldsack isn't nearly accountable enough, nor is he likely to ever have the fitness.

good to see you know your team. Tys finished in the top 5 of our time trial at the start of the season. it was won by Marty Clarke. and i would argue that the determination and grit shown by Goldy is as good as maxys, which is streaks ahead of any other player on our list.

also he is extremely quick, as was shown in his run down tackles of many players throughout the year

 

[well left]

I've always liked the idea of Goldsack going into the middle. I just think his attack on the ball and the man would be what we need and if he has the endurance to do it I would be all for giving him a go at it. Think he would do a better job than Toovey.

 

[mdc]

good to see you know your team. Tys finished in the top 5 of our time trial at the start of the season. it was won by Marty Clarke. and i would argue that the determination and grit shown by Goldy is as good as maxys, which is streaks ahead of any other player on our list.

also he is extremely quick, as was shown in his run down tackles of many players throughout the year

He's quick, he's a great tackler, but he sucks at looking after an opponent unless they're an over the hill O'Loughlin.

And if his fitness is really in the top 5 at the club, he's not showing it.

I've always liked the idea of Goldsack going into the middle. I just think his attack on the ball and the man would be what we need and if he has the endurance to do it I would be all for giving him a go at it. Think he would do a better job than Toovey.

Mon Dieu! Did you not see the Fremantle game? Surely that killed that idea once and for all.

 

[well left]

Mon Dieu! Did you not see the Fremantle game? Surely that killed that idea once and for all.

Spot on. I did miss that one and from all reports I am glad I did.

What was the problem? Was it fitness based or did he just look lost?

 

[Palmer Stoat]

Mon Dieu! Did you not see the Fremantle game? Surely that killed that idea once and for all.

One game from a second-year 30-game player shouldn't kill any idea. Goldsack didn't have a full preseason and has struggled with injury and form this year, but I rate him as a player. Seems you've got an awfully itchy trigger finger with a lot of our youngsters, mdc. (Pendles being the obvious exception.)

 

[mdc]

Spot on. I did miss that one and from all reports I am glad I did.

What was the problem? Was it fitness based or did he just look lost?

Was played as a roaming HBF-cum-mid, and ran into tackle after tackle with the ball, causing more turnovers than Rhyce could ever dream of.

 

[mdc]

One game from a second-year 30-game player shouldn't kill any idea. Goldsack didn't have a full preseason and has struggled with injury and form this year, but I rate him as a player. Seems you've got an awfully itchy trigger finger with a lot of our youngsters, mdc. (Pendles being the obvious exception.)

I just don't believe in positional frivolity. And yes, that one game should kill the idea, just as Danny Nicholls' one game killed his career (correctly).

And fwiw, I'm also higher than most on Harry (at least before this year), JA qua forward, and Stanley. Maxwell too obviously if he counts.

edit: Oh, and Cameron Wood. In fact, I came up with the idea of 1st rounder for Wood. Hine never so much as sent me a thank-you ham.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

I just don't believe in positional frivolity. And yes, that one game should kill the idea, just as Danny Nicholls' one game killed his career (correctly).

What you describe as 'positional frivolity', others might describe as not pigeonholing players too soon on too little information. And if we're really serious about this 'one game' notion, which game? You say Fremantle in Rd22 this year. Well, I could point to Rd21 versus Sydney last year, when Goldsack was released up the field and had 25 possessions.

I don't see Danny Nicholls' one game of footy as a useful point of comparison.

 

[The Sqawka]

on nicho..

i am a very very close friend to daniel.. and i think he was stitched! he played hard and tough but of course kerr tore him a new one, he was an 18 yr old on debut at subi when wce were at their best!. his pre season games very fantastic that year. and also he'll go close to winning the b&f in the vfl side this year, of course he broke his foot with a few games remainding so it will be close. (as an unlisted player)

back to goldy...

he played very well as a midfielder in a few games last year. maybe more of a wingman. anyway as for knowing someones true position, lets leave it til their older than 21. look at gary ablett senior.. only at 30 did he become a key forward. lol maybe a one scenario, but dont be too judgemental too early.

 

[Optimax]

I think Mick was using Toovey as a Tagger

And did a good job of it too DTM got beaten once by a class mid who was having the ball shoveled down his throat by a class ruckman.

Toovey will get first crack at being the tagger next season

 

[The Sqawka]

And did a good job of it too DTM got beaten once by a class mid who was having the ball shoveled down his throat by a class ruckman.

Toovey will get first crack at being the tagger next season

If thats the case, i will vomit on myself. toovey has enough trouble running without falling over himself!

stanely would be better. i watched them both at vfl level more than 10 times this year. its clear to see who is the better footballer. argue you all you like, but who has actually gone and watched our vfl side more than 3 times?

 

[Optimax]

I just don't believe in positional frivolity. And yes, that one game should kill the idea, just as Danny Nicholls' one game killed his career (correctly).

i dont know mate 4 posseions and 5 frees against, s over teh shoulder, 2 holding the ball and an OOF suggest that you will probably not be great, especially when the rest of the team is doing a rather good job against the reigning premiers interstate.

Even worse when said player barely hits 179cm and isnt the greatest with footskills

 

[Optimax]

If thats the case, i will vomit on myself. toovey has enough trouble running without falling over himself!

stanely would be better. i watched them both at vfl level more than 10 times this year. its clear to see who is the better footballer. argue you all you like, but who has actually gone and watched our vfl side more than 3 times?

Stanley is an attacking player and using him as a tagger would be stupid.

Cook has extreme endurance, but struggles to read play and is very loose when guarding the man almost a liability as a tagger

Marty is of more importance as a counter attcking wepon using him as ahard tagger would take something away from the side, maybe run with.

Goldsack will be a defender ala maxwell needs the right match up.

That leaves toovey: decent height, very good endurance, decent foot speed, wears his man like a glove also has body size. His foot skills whilst being below average and ugly work more than they dont.

Toovey as of right now is the closet thing we have to a shutdown player so maybe take a quick eze to cure teh vomiting mate.

Edit i went to the VFL 4 times and our oraccy matches, in all of them iles cant kick burns worse than any senior mid, cook still has no weapons, toovey is ultra defensive, Caff looks a likely sort

 

[mdc]

What you describe as 'positional frivolity', others might describe as not pigeonholing players too soon on too little information. And if we're really serious about this 'one game' notion, which game? You say Fremantle in Rd22 this year. Well, I could point to Rd21 versus Sydney last year, when Goldsack was released up the field and had 25 possessions.

I guess we disagree on how much information is too little. 2 years of senior football is a sufficient sample for mine.

As for the 25 possession Sydney game, he was hardly released up the field. Got a lot of his possessions right around the HBF, where he normally plays. He just had a good game. Even in that game, I don't think he showed anything that would suggest he could play in the middle. Wing, sure. But as a winger, his tackling is wasted, and he's basically a taller, less explosive Rhyce Shaw.

he played very well as a midfielder in a few games last year. maybe more of a wingman. anyway as for knowing someones true position, lets leave it til their older than 21. look at gary ablett senior.. only at 30 did he become a key forward. lol maybe a one scenario, but dont be too judgemental too early.

Look, I don't profess to have all the answers. But I don't think it's too outrageous to make a judgment call on a player who's played 30-something games in the AFL. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

But I guarantee you the coaching staff would make similar judgment calls (which may or may not coincide with mine), and develop the player with those judgments in mind.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

I guess we disagree on how much information is too little. 2 years of senior football is a sufficient sample for mine.

I'm not talking about senior football; I'm talking about his suitability as a tagger. I don't think he's shown enough to rule himself in, or out, of that role. You do -- that's where we disagree.

As for the 25 possession Sydney game, he was hardly released up the field. Got a lot of his possessions right around the HBF, where he normally plays. He just had a good game. Even in that game, I don't think he showed anything that would suggest he could play in the middle. Wing, sure. But as a winger, his tackling is wasted, and he's basically a taller, less explosive Rhyce Shaw.

I don't think that's right. In that game he started on O'Loughlin, but he was released upfield. He had three inside 50s in that match, and I remember him having a shot at goal too. He played a wing for most of the night, as best I recall. Prima facie, that, combined with his athletic ability, suggests to me that he's worth a try as a tagger.

I don't see we wouldn't try him in this role. Train him up preseason with this role in mind, let him have a crack at it through the NAB Cup, and then reassess. If it hasn't worked, no harm done. If it has, well, we've got a tagger. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Look, I don't profess to have all the answers. But I don't think it's too outrageous to make a judgment call on a player who's played 30-something games in the AFL. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

If he'd played 30 games of football as a tagger, I'd agree with you. But he hasn't, and that's the guts of what I'm saying.

 

[swiftdog]

Toovey is seen as the best fit for me. Decent height, good endurance, alright pace. Mick loves him, Mick loves discpline. Using my fantastic mathematical abilty I conclude that Toovey has discipline. What is the number 1 rule when picking a tagger? If you said discipline give yourself a pat on the back. Therefore, Toovey would make a good tagger. Get him to do what Kirk did at the start of his career, just sit on an opponent and by no means whatsoever take possesion of the ball yourself, only in emergencey situations and in no circumstances whatsoever are you permitted to kick, just handball.

That is all.