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Overrated or Underachievers

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FootyEater

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I have left this thread untill the next day so that i have had time to calm down, and in the clear light of day make sure my thoughts are clear.

basically the first two rounds of this year have presented in my opinion an 80-20% split of negative to positive news for me as a dockers supporter. and i find myself asking the question, are we just overrated, or are we underachievers? i will start with the negatives.

1. players who we have rated in the past, who will not step up when required, i am looking at the following: Brett Peake, David Mundy, Michael Johnson, Chris Tarrant, Ryan Crowley, Matt Carr, aaron sandilands. all of these players have had big wraps on them, it has become abundantly clear that they are not going to be the players we can rely on to step up and take us forward, the two i am most disappointed in are Johnson and Sandilands, they have promised so much and just go missing when we really need them.

2. Injuries.... or lack there of, this is a disappointing aspect because, while im stoked that we havent had any, we also dont have any excuses. hasleby is a big loss, but we have been without a fit hasleby for the last three seasons.

3. Skills, i honestly thought that we could improve our skills, but they really havent changed at all, we have the worst skills in the afl, and what is most alarming for me is that its hard to teach old dogs new tricks. just look at mcmanus, he has been training hard and playing for 15 years, and his skills havent improved one bit. so therefore how can we expect schammer, peake, matt carr, chris tarrant and co to improve? deep down i think everyone knows that they wont.... so what good are they? if you get the ball twenty times and give it up ten times that could be five goals, thats not a great attribute to our team.

4. lack of intensity. i heard something interesting yesterday and im not sure how true it is, but the rumour is, is that the club has had to convince brett peake to play, that he doesnt have the passion to play and that half way through the preseason he told harvs that he was quitting! i havent seen him show anything this year and it would explain a few things. Michael johnson, david mundy, matt carr and chris tarrant have also shown no urgency or heart in their play. NOT GOOD ENOUGH! as i am typing thisi am watching geelong smash the bombers, every geelong player is committed to success, they are disciplined, and they work for their team mates, and even essendon look like they are giving their all, they have just been faced with playing a better team. can anyone reading this say that the dockers have shown that at all this year?

5. Poor descision making. some players like paul hasleby, james hird etc are just natural footballers, they know where to run, when to kick, handball, tackle etc...... we have too many stupid footballers. adam campbell is not a footballer. chris tarrant is not a footballer and the list goes on, that is a problem, and how do you solve it? it goes back to fundamentals and if players cant make the correct decisions then it just goes straight back down the other end for goals. and half the time our defence is crucified by our midfielders and forwards making stupid decisions, especially when you consider that every other team in the AFL has the skills to kick the ball 30 meters to the advantage of their key forwards.

Positives
1. Young Players getting a gig. i was stoked with the debuts of palmer nad mayne, and i though ibbotson, while making some mistakes showed some promise. and with foster coming back from injuries, warnock almost back, and with hinkley showing promise along with obrien, i think that we do have a bright future, but it is going to have to come at the expense of players who consider themselves safe in the team. i think harvey will do the right thing and give them a go too.

2. Headland, i have been one of the biggest des headland baggers of the lot of us. but he has shown that he wants to play, and that he can play well without great team mates, last year and this year to date have been good for des.

3. we cant have had a worse start. well we could have been melbourne, but i really reckon that it has been a bad a start as we could have had. meaning that we can only improve, which is a positive in its own right.


I think that we have the right coaching mix. they demand respect, but lets face it, we may have expected too much. we have pavlich in our forwardline and little else. our midfield is pedestrian, but we have some good young kids to come in. with warnock hopefully tasking over from sandilands in the next year or so. and our backline is serviceable, with grover hayden and mcpharlin being the cornerstone.

so all is not lost, i just hope harvs and the coaching staff have the balls to make the tough decisions on the bludgers and underperformers like peake, michael johnson, mundy and matt carr.
 
Little bit hard on mundy he had a great game last week but was below avg this week.

The rest pretty much spot on

For some reason when its a big game with pride on the line eg derbies we look amazing,lots of pressure applied etc etc and show signs of being a top class team.

But then in normal matches they dont show that intesity hunger etc etc

Theres a few that give it everything every game but theres others who just seem to show up put on there boots an play.
Derbies it always seems like every player is giving there all.

Underachievers in my view

On our day we can look unstoppable
 
I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations. We have lost two difficult games. Hawks will be top 2. Dropping a match at home is always tough, but it is in no means the worst thing ever when you lose by 15 points to a premiership contender.

Saying that we could not have had a worse start is a bit much. Percentage is fine two hard games out of the way. We have had opportunity to win both games. Next week is the test. In two weeks we will be 2-2 hopefully.

I dont understand the bagging of Mundy. I think he is all class. Our defenders did a good job against the hawks. It is not all about possessions as a defender.
Sandilands has come along in leaps and bounds.

Yes Peake and Schammer make mistakes and have skills problems and probably always will. Do you persist - of course.

Tarrant has had two absolute shockers. He looks all worng - can't explain it. Do you perist - yes - why? because we know he can be a match winner and he just needs god knows what.
 
No question the Dockers have been overrated for a number of years AFAIC. Until the club strings a couple of solid finals series together then its all theoretical potential - and most of the 18 AFL clubs have at least that. In a relatively even competition the Dockers are a quality side in the mix, and that is the most we can say about them

As for individual players, in the two games so far ... well MJ is bellow par and Peak hasn't fired and even Little Carr hasn't been in top flight - but nothing catastrophic IMO. I think the only major disappointment has been Tarrant.

What gets me about him is that he apparently had a solid pre-season and was rearing to go, but his head just doesn't seem in the game. His position is one that is made to look worse when delivery isn't on the money, but it seems more than that. Perhaps Harvey's game plan doesn't utilise him as much, I don't know and as I've not seen a live game yet I'm not sure what his off the ball stuff is like. So far (and lets remember its only a couple of games in), Tarrant is the only out and out underachiever for mine.
 

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Schammer / Peake / Tarrant / Crowley / Sandilands ... Over-rated.

Dodd / Farmer / Mundy / Michael Johnson / Roger Hayden... Underachieving
 
Underachieving with a lot of players out of form.

Also the blend of our list is an issue. We have too many defenders who don't actually defend and are best suited as the loose man (Black, Johnson, Mundy, Drum and to a lesser extent Hayden). We also don't have enough genuine midfielders.
 
I see you guys having a crack at Schammer.

IMO, Harvey hasnt given him a real crack yet. 64% and 58% TOG respectively. Against us he had an awesome first half i thought, he was everywhere and then hardly played after half time. I didnt see him this weekend but going by the TOG i guess there wouldnt have been much to see.

I did see him in the first game against Carlton in Sth Africa and thought he was probably best for you guys. I understand that his disposal is suspect by foot but it really isnt that bad (from what ive seen this year).

Give the Schammerhead a go. On the other hand, I totally agree with your opinions on M Carr.
 
I dunno about that. If Hayden is underachieving then he must be one of the best players in the competition if he plays to his potential.

Hayden was down on his usual but his main fault in the game that I saw was he gave too much space to Rioli. He attacked tha ball at times but when the ball didn't fall his way Rioli drifted goalwards and Hayden didn't sprint like mad to make sure Rioli was covered.

Mundy - poor game but his record deserves another chance. Reckon he should play as a defensive forward on Wirrapanda this week ala Thornton a while ago.

Tarrant needs to go, Warnock in. Kiwi stays. McPharlin up forward all game against the Weagles, his kicking for goals seems to be better than it was.

Crowley serviceable but had some brain fades. Played on in the middle without awareness that he was under the pump - needed to go back over the mark - result was a goal to Hawthorn.

Peake been very dissapointing this year, looking forward to Foster being fit and putting pressure on, BOB as well. Duffield might be an immediate option for this week - played a blinder for South Fremantle.

I think we are performing as I expected but the gap to make up is not insurmountable. Every one else seemed to overrate our chances. This week will give the best indication so far of where we are really at for this year.
 
I dunno about that. If Hayden is underachieving then he must be one of the best players in the competition if he plays to his potential.

Last year Hayden was our best defender by a mile. His Disposal efficiency has been shaky this season and his decision making hasn't been its usual sharpness.

On the subject of Foster and O'brien... Once fully fit those two showed enough last year to suggest they should easily push Peake and Schammer out of the team.

I think the reason we are bashing Schammer is because who cares what hes done in the past. Its what he does now and what he can offer. Tell me something he can do that Palmer, Foster and O'brien can't? Those three are all quicker, all have better disposal and would all be alot hungrier to learn and succeed.
 
Just like footyeater I have waited until the next night to come on here to give my thoughts, if I had of come on here last night I would have been banned for life I reckon.

I was filthy with the performance of some senior players last night. Too often they go missing and when they do decide to play they cant hit a target.

22 touches for Palmer on debut and he had 1 clanger.
Now look at:
Hayden - 21 touches for 6 clangers
Tarrant - 7 touches for 3 clangers
Mundy - 9 touches for 3 clangers

Just on Mundy, has anyone noticed how he doesnt attack the footy. Watch him next time, he could easily get the ball first but he prefers to wait for his opponent to get the ball so he can tackle the guy. Does this alot....

If the rumour about Peake is true then f..k him off, we dont need guys who cant be f..ked out there... Give another guy a go.

Tarrant piss off back to the WAFL. Learn to work for a kick for a change.

Crowley had one good year - a dud, no good

Campbell just needs time in the side for confidence, im not writing him off just yet.

We need another defender, im sorry guys but our backline needs it. McPharlin looks too dangerous going forward. Bring in Drum!

At the end of the day we are over-rated. Over-rated by ourselves.... expecting too much from a list which really looks to be ordinary apart from 2006.
 
Last year Hayden was our best defender by a mile. His Disposal efficiency has been shaky this season and his decision making hasn't been its usual sharpness.

On the subject of Foster and O'brien... Once fully fit those two showed enough last year to suggest they should easily push Peake and Schammer out of the team.

I think the reason we are bashing Schammer is because who cares what hes done in the past. Its what he does now and what he can offer. Tell me something he can do that Palmer, Foster and O'brien can't? Those three are all quicker, all have better disposal and would all be alot hungrier to learn and succeed.

I agree on Hayden he seem to make a mess of everything he did this week.
On Schammer pretty sure he got hurt around the ribs in the third Qtr against the maggies so was off for a while.
He is also very hungry to succeed and gives his all every minute of the game.His work rate is huge but people will always look at his errors before anything else but I think he has improved.I've always been interested on how he would go in the clearances given the chance or small forward.
 
Just like footyeater I have waited until the next night to come on here to give my thoughts, if I had of come on here last night I would have been banned for life I reckon.

I was filthy with the performance of some senior players last night. Too often they go missing and when they do decide to play they cant hit a target.

22 touches for Palmer on debut and he had 1 clanger.
Now look at:
Hayden - 21 touches for 6 clangers
Tarrant - 7 touches for 3 clangers
Mundy - 9 touches for 3 clangers

Just on Mundy, has anyone noticed how he doesnt attack the footy. Watch him next time, he could easily get the ball first but he prefers to wait for his opponent to get the ball so he can tackle the guy. Does this alot....

If the rumour about Peake is true then f..k him off, we dont need guys who cant be f..ked out there... Give another guy a go.

Tarrant piss off back to the WAFL. Learn to work for a kick for a change.

Crowley had one good year - a dud, no good

Campbell just needs time in the side for confidence, im not writing him off just yet.

We need another defender, im sorry guys but our backline needs it. McPharlin looks too dangerous going forward. Bring in Drum!

At the end of the day we are over-rated. Over-rated by ourselves.... expecting too much from a list which really looks to be ordinary apart from 2006.


Although I havent watch on T.V. yet I think he also ran into trouble then handballed to someone under pressure a few times.One in front of us he ran forward into trouble and got pinged for holding the ball instead of handballing to ibbo who was in space why?Only he knows.
 

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Although I havent watch on T.V. yet I think he also ran into trouble then handballed to someone under pressure a few times.One in front of us he ran forward into trouble and got pinged for holding the ball instead of handballing to ibbo who was in space why?Only he knows.

Running "into" trouble and then handballing over the top is how the loose man and space is created. You need guys taking these things on (such as Peake used to) to break congested areas. It doesn't always come off and the Hawks look like a very tight team defensively around the ground. If this wasn't done then we would hear all the whinging about kicking to contests and slow ball movement.
 
^^This is true FB.

I'll always defend Hayden when he makes mistakes because he's one of the few players we have that takes the game on and tries to make things happen.

Like they say - some players work 'around' the game, waiting for things to happen before they make their move (ie holding up the ball and waiting for players in space - which usually results in a long bomb to a pack once the ump calls play on). But the much more valuable players are the ones who impose their will on the game and make things happen. They're the ones who shape the game rather than just responding to it.

Hayden is in the latter category and that's why I love him so much.

Incidentally Palmer seems to be cut from the same cloth. No waiting around for something to happen - he attacks the game and makes something happen. We've got a real gem on our hands there.
 
As for mundy waiting for the other guy to get the ball then lay a tackle.
That unfortunately is a smart move these days,unless you have quick hands or explosive acceleration your likely to be tackled straight away an who knows what the umps decision will be.

Your not rewarded for throwing your body into get the ball, they reward the guy who sits back then lays a tackle.
 
At the risk of providing a possibly unwanted Eagles view, this question is clouded by your performance in the 2nd half of 2006.

Take out that sequence of wins and your record over the last 4 or 5 seasons is that of a competitive but just below average side - dangerous on your day, but just as capable of looking like a group of plodders.

This is where 2006 confuses things. Your form in that period was first class - some of the best football of that year was played by the Dockers - I still have visions of your lot tearing us a new one in that derby and we were a pemiership side that year. The win was no fluke either as it was part of a sustained run of form.

Players like Peake, Crowley, Johnson, Sandilands and M Carr to name a few earnt reputations in that time which perhaps they have been able to live off since to varying degrees. The expectation was that 2007 would build on that 2006 form, but that ultimately didn't happen.

Maybe 2006 was just a one off, I don't know - but your best is very good, finding it consistently though seems to be what's holding you back.
 
Schammer didn't play most of last year so give him a break. He is a tough little nugget who gives his all, sometimes to the point of reclessness. I think some people are being hard on Sandilands too. He also didn't play the end of last year so needs a few more games with A NEW COACH to get comfortable, And dont they say big guys take longer to develope and Sandi is how old? I only see upside with him. Peake needs WAFL time but it won't happen cause he's marrying the bosses daughter.
 
One thing that pissed me off is when we were down on the weekend, and we'd just had an easy goal kicked against us - the players didn't get angry. They didn't fire up. They just don't want it enough, and there are too many guys who seem to be playing for a paycheck.

Hayden was OK, but **** he needs to stop handballing to people under pressure. Everytime he gets the ball he is 50/50 chance he'll get caught and handball it to another guy who will get caught.

Mundy not attacking the footy is nothing new. This week he got showed up because there was some hard ball to get, and Mundy didn't want a piece of it.

I agree on Campbell - not a natural footballer. Doesn't know where to go, doesn't know what to do. Has zero awareness, great athlete but poor footballer.
 

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Next week out or who will be facing the axe Peake,Mundy,M Carr&Tarrant.
Peake,I have nicknamed him the crab,because all he ever does when he gets the ball is want to go sideways.
Mundy,Oh dear where do I start,too slow too lazy,no desperation.,not interested.Mind elsewhere.If it is back in Melbourne lets send him back there.
Carr,has been a good player for us over his time here,but the time for him to step aside has come I feel.Similar to Mundy,now too slow and appears to not be interested.What happened to the high flying M Carr that we had first off?
Tarrant,I thought he had a good season last year ran hard and did the one per centers that people talk about.In the two games so far this year has not even been near the ball to do any percenters at all.

If I hear another person say that Roger Hayden is our best defender I will scream.Fair Dinkum.He makes far too many mistakes,has far too many turn overs,puts his team mates under too much pressure.Roger is not as fast as he thinks he is.I have said it for several seasons now he runs at players from the opposition and thinks he can get around them with his BLINDING speed,but all he does is get caught and hand the ball to someone who is standing flat footed and not expecting the ball.He is loose as a defender and gives away goals every week.His player Always kicks goals.On the weekend two to Rioli and one to Campbell.Fair dinkum he is as loos as the kid who ate the box of chocolate laxettes.
Sandilands must have night mares about how or when we are going to take advantage of his ruck work.On the weekend he had 36 hit outs compared to 20 all up for the Hawks.He had 16 possessions 4 marks 2 clearances and 4 clangers.In my opinion not bad.
On the new kids I thought Palmer was outstanding,Mayne was servicable and Ibbotson was ok, a bit caught up by the pace but he will improve.
 
Next week out or who will be facing the axe Peake,Mundy,M Carr&Tarrant.
Peake,I have nicknamed him the crab,because all he ever does when he gets the ball is want to go sideways.
Mundy,Oh dear where do I start,too slow too lazy,no desperation.,not interested.Mind elsewhere.If it is back in Melbourne lets send him back there.
Carr,has been a good player for us over his time here,but the time for him to step aside has come I feel.Similar to Mundy,now too slow and appears to not be interested.What happened to the high flying M Carr that we had first off?
Tarrant,I thought he had a good season last year ran hard and did the one per centers that people talk about.In the two games so far this year has not even been near the ball to do any percenters at all.

If I hear another person say that Roger Hayden is our best defender I will scream.Fair Dinkum.He makes far too many mistakes,has far too many turn overs,puts his team mates under too much pressure.Roger is not as fast as he thinks he is.I have said it for several seasons now he runs at players from the opposition and thinks he can get around them with his BLINDING speed,but all he does is get caught and hand the ball to someone who is standing flat footed and not expecting the ball.He is loose as a defender and gives away goals every week.His player Always kicks goals.On the weekend two to Rioli and one to Campbell.Fair dinkum he is as loos as the kid who ate the box of chocolate laxettes.
Sandilands must have night mares about how or when we are going to take advantage of his ruck work.On the weekend he had 36 hit outs compared to 20 all up for the Hawks.He had 16 possessions 4 marks 2 clearances and 4 clangers.In my opinion not bad.
On the new kids I thought Palmer was outstanding,Mayne was servicable and Ibbotson was ok, a bit caught up by the pace but he will improve.

Did you by any chance take the trouble to watch last week .Mundy was in our best three and he is one of a few who perform on the road.
Mundy is becoming a serial scapegoat ,
and it looks like Roger is about to join the lets bag Des & Mundy it/s their fault we lost posts.
Seriously some of you so called supporters should grab a brain and actually watch a game without your preconceived ideas and vendettas .
 
Salim,nopt preconceived or a vendetta on either.I happen to follow the game very closely anf have for many years and hopefull will continue to do so for many years to come.I do believe that I know a bit about the game and have my views on players who do not perform and those who do.
Mundy last week got a lot of possessions but they were cheap ones,ot by himself.He never wins the hard ball.
I have said here and on all other sights that Hayden is a problem for us.Roger must learn to defend as well as attack.As I said his player always kicks goals.Not every now and then but every week.
Maybe I know a little more about the game and understand what a defender is there for than you do.Maybe I have been around football a little bit more than you.maybe you are the one who should take note of such things.
Oh and as a supporter I have been ticket holder since day one and will continue to pay my fee as a ticket holder until they put me in the box and burn me.
 
Salim,nopt preconceived or a vendetta on either.I happen to follow the game very closely anf have for many years and hopefull will continue to do so for many years to come.I do believe that I know a bit about the game and have my views on players who do not perform and those who do.
Mundy last week got a lot of possessions but they were cheap ones,ot by himself.He never wins the hard ball.
I have said here and on all other sights that Hayden is a problem for us.Roger must learn to defend as well as attack.As I said his player always kicks goals.Not every now and then but every week.
Maybe I know a little more about the game and understand what a defender is there for than you do.Maybe I have been around football a little bit more than you.maybe you are the one who should take note of such things.
Oh and as a supporter I have been ticket holder since day one and will continue to pay my fee as a ticket holder until they put me in the box and burn me.

Anchor man glad your a life long docker .I salute you for that ,it hasnt been easy to hang in there for the last 13 years.I/m also ex south and dockers foundation member and now dockers AFL melbourne member.
I respect yours but my opinion differs from yours on Mundy ,he/s a receiver and someone who has good disposal and can run the lines.He is never going to be a hard at it in and under, but all sides have the Mundy type .Defenders have changed over the years and the dogged shutdown hbf has been replaced by the attacking receiver wing type of previous eras .How many of our attacking moves are launched from our half back line.I hate to say this but his purpose is to receive as you call it ,the cheap possession.
Roger is copping harsh criticism for his brilliance and high standards set last year that as yet he hasnt quite recaptured
 
Salim,It would appear we agree to disagree maybe on both accounts>I agree that every team has the full on receivers of which Mundy is one.But I just find him very one paced and no urgency in his game.
I am also a South Freo boy and have just rejoined them for the season,so my harsheness on Hayden is not coming from a supporter of another club.
I think before Roger broke his leg, he was a far better player than he is now.Go back over his record over the last couple of seasons and see how many goals his opposition kick.I was very much a critic of his last season because of the same reason,he is far too loose for a good defender.
Again I respect your opinion on our players.But I think we have made some pretty ordinary players into supposed super stars because people think that it is not right to bring them into account.
I can undersatand how hard it must be being a Dockers supporter over there.Keep smiling at them
 
Yes Hayden used to be an awesome defender an week in week out he would rarely get beaten, would be right on his opponents shoulder an spoil most marking attempts.

It is not his role anymore to do that, they have given him the role of playmaker/quarterback whatever u want to call it.
His job now is to run off his opponents, create an set up our attacks.

Which of course means his disposal will be under more scrutiny than ever because he has left his player wide open an any posession that he turnsover will generally cost a goal.

Judging by the mundy comments you obviously have pre concieved ideas about him on being soft an due to his only having 1 speed u think it means he doesnt care.
When mundy used to play the spare man in defense role he backed back into packs many of times, that takes more courage than throwing your body around to grab a loose ball.
Once again that doesnt seem to be his role anymore.
Due to being a veryt smart player and generally having good foot skills they are pushing him up the ground alot more an hes playing more around the middle.
He set up a few goals in round 1 with smart thinking and great kicking.
One of the few players who understand to kick it into the space an let the forward run to it.

These are 2 of our best players your bagging
 

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