PAFC - Questionable signings under Hinkley

[n4nirvana]

Orazio

 

[Peninsula Boy]

I think most of those are not much of a problem and had a pretty good reasons behind them or not losing much draft capital.

The Watts one couldn't netted us a good player but I understand the idea of Watts.
Toumpass burning 29 isn't the best either.
Esava is also understandable and I'm waiting for a good coach to get him going.

I would put the contract of Tom Clurey

17

Tom Clurey

Age

31

Ht

193cm

Wt

95kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.7

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

3.1

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.6

4star

MG

156.0

2star

D

10.9

3star

K

8.9

4star

HB

2.0

1star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.3

2star

MG

156.0

3star

D

7.8

2star

K

6.0

3star

HB

1.8

2star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.2

3star

as a questionable signing along with Dixon this year and Lycett a couple of years ago. You can also put in McEntee for two years as well. I might even look at Byrne-Jones's contract as well.

 

[RangaInTeal]

I am not sure that we can blame Hinkley entirely for our list building in recent times. He would have a major say in who we add to the list but there would also be others who have a say. I can imagine the likes of Chris Davies and the rest of the Coaching staff having their say.

The real problem goes deeper than who we have traded in the real problem is the fractured outlook re our list builds during the Hinkley years. The ethos seems to have been we have a good list which only needs boosting in some key areas to turn our list into a Premiership list. Hence we have traded in the likes of Jarred Polec, Paddy Ryder, Jack Watts, Steven Motlop, Francis Evans, Tom Rockliff, and more recently the likes of Jeremy Finlayson, Allir Aliir, Esava Ratugolea, Ivan Soldo, Jordan Sweet and Willie Rioli. Some of these have proved to be good players but they have not achieved the ultimate in fact they have not even got us into a Grand Final.

The assessment has been off the mark and the addition of experience in key areas has not worked. It has also covered up one of Ken Hinkley's greatest failings as a Coach- namely his inability to develop young players particularly tall players.

The real cost of this failure is yet to be realised as we burned last year's draft and there is every chance we will do the same in 2024. The full effect of not drafting first and second round picks in 2023 and in 2024 will be seen in three or four years time when we have a tired old list relying on players drafted six or seven years in the past. The real task for whoever succeeds Hinkley will be a list rebuild and hopefully covering the holes created by burning a series of Drafts.

Not only would I get rid of Hinkley but I would also say thanks and goodbye to the likes of Davies, Cripps, Parker etc. The problem is the person who should instigate this is David Koch but he should also go. Honk your horn if you agree!

Unsure if the list will be old and tired when we have so much talent <23 years of age. We have seen in posts above we only have 1 or 2 players hanging around from drafts gone by, we have basically forgone 2 players. Probably end up pulling Phillopou back in a trade or delisted free agent.

Also if our list structure needs someone in this age bracket, free agency is a viable option.

However it may also force us to play the kids to cover the so called shortfalls of these two drafts you speak of.

In terms of Risk vs Reward, I think exiting Two drafts when you have the age profile we do isn’t a huge gamble, if the right coach is at the helm.

 

[PowerBaz]

Until the Grand Final

Versus 10000000 Toddy games

 

[RangaInTeal]

Versus 10000000 Toddy games

Jesus we love a pile on, talking about failed speculative picks and we find a way to bag getting games into our best Key Forward prospect drafted since Lockwood…

We either don’t play the promising kids enough or play the promising kids to much, BigFooty101.

 

[raptalia]

Unsure if the list will be old and tired when we have so much talent <23 years of age. We have seen in posts above we only have 1 or 2 players hanging around from drafts gone by, we have basically forgone 2 players. Probably end up pulling Phillopou back in a trade or delisted free agent.

Also if our list structure needs someone in this age bracket, free agency is a viable option.

However it may also force us to play the kids to cover the so called shortfalls of these two drafts you speak of.

In terms of Risk vs Reward, I think exiting Two drafts when you have the age profile we do isn’t a huge gamble, if the right coach is at the helm.

You miss the point. We have tried free agency as means of topping up and it has not worked. We have to develop a crop of young players and under Hinkley we are not doing that. Playing the kids is one thing but the kids have to have talent and when you burn Drafts at the rate we are that young talent is not there. It really goes back more than two Drafts as our last first round Draft pick was Josh Sinn who we took at pick #12 in 2021. When I look at our list I can probably find two maybe three young players to get really excited about.

Not having a strong hand in the Drafts is a huge gamble and we may not feel the effect for at least four years. Hopefully by that time Hinkley will not be around to pick up the pieces from a mess that he created. Someone else may have to do the hard work.

 

[RangaInTeal]

You miss the point. We have tried free agency as means of topping up and it has not worked. We have to develop a crop of young players and under Hinkley we are not doing that. Playing the kids is one thing but the kids have to have talent and when you burn Drafts at the rate we are that young talent is not there. It really goes back more than two Drafts as our last first round Draft pick was Josh Sinn who we took at pick #12 in 2021. When I look at our list I can probably find two maybe three young players to get really excited about.

Not having a strong hand in the Drafts is a huge gamble and we may not feel the effect for at least four years. Hopefully by that time Hinkley will not be around to pick up the pieces from a mess that he created. Someone else may have to do the hard work.

So we drafted Lord and Jones 4 years ago, and brought in Goldsack and Scofield.

50% are off our list already and Jones and Lord are not first 18 players.

I understand what you’re saying and I get your point. But from an economics point of view, if 80% of your list is <23 and 50% of your selections are returning nil value, diversifying isn’t really a gamble.

Developing a crop of kids, Rozee, Butters, JHF, Bergman, Farrell, Mead, Jones, Burgoyne, Sinn, Lorenz, Lord, Visintini off the top of my head have all played Leauge footy this year. Jackson, Scully, Tommy A, Charleson, Walsh, McCallum have all shown a bit and if we hold these guys an extra year or two to cover the lack of selections in the two drafts you speak of, are we going to be at such a disadvantage?

 

[Port01]

Only one that bothers me at the moment is throwing away a first round pick for Esava and Soldo.

The two borderline best 22 players for a first rounder meme has been going on on here for years, and no-one ever took it seriously until we decided to go all in on Ken.

Someone needs to be accountable for that total failure.

 

[Ropable]

I would argue Sam Mayes

32

Sam Mayes

Age

31

Ht

187cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

10.4

4star

HB

7.0

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.1

4star

G

0.3

3star

D

14.5

3star

K

8.5

3star

HB

6.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.5

3star

G

0.0

1star

D

20.0

5star

K

12.8

5star

HB

7.2

5star

M

6.2

5star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.0

1star

, purely because of what we effectively gave up in the trade that bought him here

We traded the equivalent of pick 20 in the 2019 draft for him and the ability to move up one pick in the 2018 draft where we took Rozee with 5, while Ben King

34

Ben King

Age

25

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

3.5

4star

T

0.5

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.5

5star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.2

3star

G

1.0

4star

was taken at 6.

Would have we really lost out in taking King over Rozee, losing the 20 gamer in Mayes and taking more capital into 2019?

Me thinks not

 

[EskimoPAFC]

Let's go over the list of inspired signings made the AFL's answer to Carlo Ancellotti. I'm not talking about young players who are up and coming but could never quite cut it, I'm talking more along the lines of journeyman player who shouldn't be at the club.

1. Brett Eddy

Brett Eddy

Age

36

Ht

193cm

Wt

97kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.0

2star

K

5.3

2star

HB

1.7

2star

M

1.7

2star

T

2.3

4star

G

1.0

4star

No current season stats available

D

7.0

2star

K

5.3

2star

HB

1.7

2star

M

1.7

2star

T

2.3

4star

G

1.0

4star

2. Dom Barry

Dom Barry

Age

31

Ht

179cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.2

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

6.0

4star

M

2.2

2star

T

1.7

4star

CL

0.8

3star

No current season stats available

D

7.6

2star

K

3.8

2star

HB

3.8

3star

M

1.2

2star

T

1.4

4star

CL

0.4

3star

3. Jack Watts
4. Jack Trengove

Jack Trengove

Age

34

Ht

186cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.5

5star

K

9.4

4star

HB

9.1

5star

M

4.2

4star

T

4.5

5star

MG

188.9

3star

No current season stats available

D

20.6

5star

K

8.6

4star

HB

12.0

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

3.6

5star

5. Lindsay Thomas
6. Esava Ratugolea

27

Esava Ratugolea

Age

27

Ht

197cm

Wt

108kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.6

2star

K

4.8

2star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

2.2

4star

MG

131.6

2star

D

8.1

2star

K

4.3

2star

HB

3.9

3star

M

2.1

2star

T

2.5

3star

MG

109.0

2star

D

9.2

3star

K

5.0

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

133.8

3star

7. Jimmy Toumpas

Jimmy Toumpas

Age

31

Ht

183cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

6.7

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.7

4star

CL

0.8

3star

No current season stats available

D

7.0

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.4

4star

CL

0.2

2star

Is there anyone else I've missed?

Pretty much all of these were really good pick ups. The only exception is Esava, who we overpaid so much for its probably one of the worst trades we've ever done. If we had got him in for pick 50-60 (as would have been reasonable) he would be a great pick up too.

Very few of the others cost us much at all. Several were hurt by the coaching and selection committee never giving them a decent chance.

 

[Rising Power]

I think the one we were dudded on was the Monfries trade - sure we only gave up pick 51 for him, but then for him to be suspended for 12mths through no fault of ours without any compo is a disgrace!

We could have signed Monfries as a FA but we agreed with Essendon to trade for him to avoid losing the FA compensation for losing Chaplin and/or Pearce. I think there was something Essendon benefited from it re Brendon Goddard as well.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

We could have signed Monfries as a FA but we agreed with Essendon to trade for him to avoid losing the FA compensation for losing Chaplin and/or Pearce. I think there was something Essendon benefited from it re Brendon Goddard as well.

Essendon werent going to get a compo pick anyway due to Goddard so any pick we gave them was an improvement for them.

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Shaucob_Burjan]

I'm okay with the Rockliff, Motlop, Watts trio.

Only costed cap space, I have no problem trying to bring in 3 first 22 players from other clubs without selling all the picks.

 

[PortPortPort]

Jesus we love a pile on, talking about failed speculative picks and we find a way to bag getting games into our best Key Forward prospect drafted since Lockwood…

We either don’t play the promising kids enough or play the promising kids to much, BigFooty101.

The logic between Marshall and Lord is wild. Marshall had 4 bad years then came good for 2 years now back to bad.

Meanwhile they can't give Lord 2 years. Blows my mind. Lord has to take over Dixon. Dixon should never play again.

 

[tribey]

Until the Grand Final

Is it an urban legend that he was told he was going to be delisted the week of that game?

 

[Duckimus Prime]

Until the Grand Final

We drafted him to cripple South Adelaide.

He played the Grand Final like an SANFL plant put in to ensure that the AFL sides didn't win a SANFL Premiership.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Is it an urban legend that he was told he was going to be delisted the week of that game?

Who knows, but he certainly played like it.

 

[Long live PAFC]

Meh every side has good and bad calls.

Most of ours make sense and are understandable.

The failure to trade Butcher, Hartlett and Lobbe and keeping Hayes over Ladhams, are all shockers in hindsight but understandable at the time.

Collingwood went all in under Buckley - overpaid several players, burned some talent and capital on the way out and got little in draft for it. It looked diabolic and like it would cause years of drift and hardship to correct. They were premiers just a couple of years later.

Things are never as bad as they seem.

If you really want to examine Port’s draft and trading, it’s important to recognise the advantages some clubs have received.

• Geelong with Bowes and pick 7
• Sydney, GCS, GWS and Brisbane with numerous academy players
• the father sons of Collingwood, Footscray,
• the sustained hard years which brought in early picks and, sometimes, compensation for Melbourne, Carlton, North
• the recruiting pull of the big vic clubs (Collingwood, Carlton, Hawthorn, Essendon and Richmond) with their never ending salary cap or the lifestyle recruiting of Geelong and the northern states.
• SA is poorer, less populated and more sparsely populated than the other states (bar Tas and WA is quite spread out too)

 

[morell]

Bit of a weird take

List management and recruiting has been a strength up until very recently in my opinion

 

[1954]

All clubs would have picked up more than their fair share of duds over the years, but after the club chased him for quite some time Ratugolea has in my opinion at this stage been the most disappointing of the 4 players we traded for last season.

Many of us, including yours truly thought he was going to be the final piece of the defensive puzzle as that strongly built tall we have lacked since Moses hung up the boots after a stellar career at full back for Jerusalem, but the early signs haven't been good for Esava, particularly with his positioning and decision making which has to beg the question as to how much homework the club actually did on him.

That vision someone put up on this site a few weeks ago of him jumping above the pack in the geebung goal square and then deliberately punching what would have been a certain Hawkin's goal 20 metres back into play was an absolute head shake moment and should have rung some fairly loud alarm bells re that decision making.
Another more recent example was that chest mark he took for Port behind the goal line when all he had to do to prevent a score was step a metre forward.

I'm not writing him off yet though, his only very brief sojourn into the Power forward line against brisvegas resulted in him scoring a goal, and it's unlikely he could do any worse than Dixon did yesterday so maybe he could be worth a try as the gorilla forward to see what he has got.

 

[Onward To Victory]

The problem was not that we picked these guys up, it was that we did not play them at AFL level when in form! Brett Eddy

Brett Eddy

Age

36

Ht

193cm

Wt

97kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.0

2star

K

5.3

2star

HB

1.7

2star

M

1.7

2star

T

2.3

4star

G

1.0

4star

No current season stats available

D

7.0

2star

K

5.3

2star

HB

1.7

2star

M

1.7

2star

T

2.3

4star

G

1.0

4star

won the Ken Farmer medal the year he was with us and Jack Trengove

Jack Trengove

Age

34

Ht

186cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.5

5star

K

9.4

4star

HB

9.1

5star

M

4.2

4star

T

4.5

5star

MG

188.9

3star

No current season stats available

D

20.6

5star

K

8.6

4star

HB

12.0

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

3.6

5star

was on track to win the Magarey before he got injured. It was bizarre to pick these guys up if there was no intention of playing them - and sure, neither might have made it. But we never found out at AFL level.

 

[TazD]

The problem was not that we picked these guys up, it was that we did not play them at AFL level when in form! Brett Eddy won the Ken Farmer medal the year he was with us and Jack Trengove was on track to win the Magarey before he got injured. It was bizarre to pick these guys up if there was no intention of playing them - and sure, neither might have made it. But we never found out at AFL level.

Imagine Jason Cripps confusion. Bring em in and Ken picks the same old because he doesn't understand structure.

 

[Traveling_Power]

Let's go over the list of inspired signings made the AFL's answer to Carlo Ancellotti. I'm not talking about young players who are up and coming but could never quite cut it, I'm talking more along the lines of journeyman player who shouldn't be at the club.

1. Brett Eddy
2. Dom Barry
3. Jack Watts
4. Jack Trengove
5. Lindsay Thomas
6. Esava Ratugolea
7. Jimmy Toumpas

Is there anyone else I've missed?

Here are players 1st year on our list that are no longer at the club
So, you can work out the questionable signings from the list
(note this list doesn't include those players from pre 2012 that got delisted after 2012)

2012
ORAZIO FANTASIA
CHAD WINGARD
BRENDON AH CHEE
AARON YOUNG
NATHAN KRAKOUER
BRENT RENOUF
DANNY BUTCHER
NATHAN BLEE
DARREN PFEIFFER
JOHN McCARTHY

------------/------------
2013
JACK HOMBSCH
JAKE NEADE
ANGUS MONFRIES
KANE MITCHELL
SAM COLQUHOUN
MASON SHAW
LEWIS STEVENSON
CAMPBELL HEATH
JUSTIN HOSKIN

------------/------------
2014
KARL AMON
SAM GRAY
JARED POLEC
MATTHEW WHITE
JARMAN IMPEY
MITCH HARVEY

-------------/---------
2015
RILEY BONNER
BILLY FRAMPTON
DOUGAL HOWARD
PADDY RYDER
JIMMY TOUMPAS
LOGAN AUSTIN
JESSE PALMER

------------/----------
2016
AIDYN JOHNSON
CAM HEWETT
WILL SNELLING

------------/----------
2017
SAM HAYES
JARROD LIENERT
PETER LADHAMS
JOE ATLEY
EMMANUEL IRRA
BRETT EDDY

------------/------------
2018
STEVEN MOTLOP
TOM ROCKLIFF
JOEL GARNER
JACK WATTS
JAKE PATMORE
JACK TRENGOVE
DOM BARRY
LINDSAY THOMAS

------------/------------
2019
XAVIER DUURSMA
SCOTT LYCETT
JAKE PASINI
MARTIN FREDERICK
SAM MAYES
BOYD WOODCOCK
CAM SUTCLIFFE
RILEY GRUNDY
TOBIN COX
WYLIE BUZZA
KAI PUDNEY

------------/----------
2020
TRENT BURGOYNE

-----------/---------
2021
TAJ SCHOFIELD
TYSON GOLDSACK

------------/----------
2022
TRENT DUMONT
BRYNN TEAKLE
SAM SKINNER

------------/----------
2023
NATHAN BARKLA

 

[JimmyBC]

You know what's worse than any of the signings mentioned? rolling on & on with repeat offenders because they are 'great blokes' and go on fittery end of season trips.

 

[Duck Farmer]

Wylie buzza - paid nothing but waste of a list spot

I forgot about the Coyote.