Pagans coaching - Does anyone know.

[audas]

This is not a bash on Pagan, but rather a thread to discuss what are his methods and tactics. I hear a lot of "he floods" which he does do but what else. He tends to reach for defensive footy far too easily, dosent play kids, dosent attack so why is this? What is he up to ? You can clearly see what other coaches are doing (sydny, bullies, adelaide etc) so any insights into this would be appreciated.

 

[BlueBelle]

Everything you said is true. He is far too defensive and needs to be more attacking. It's getting beyond a joke how fans can see this and he can't!

 

[Bengal Tiger]

Everything you said is true. He is far too defensive and needs to be more attacking. It's getting beyond a joke how fans can see this and he can't!

And you Blues fans know more about footy than Dennis Pagan???????????

 

[Kooley]

And you Blues fans know more about footy than Dennis Pagan???????????

off troll.

 

[mediumsizered]

My wife, who doesn't have much interest in football at all, made a couple of interesting observations while watching Saturday's game. Players with the ball are very slow at disposing of the ball and missing opportunities to kick to someone who is free and the players seem to be scared of making a mistake. This second point I thought was particularly valid. Many of the younger plays are not prepared to roll the dice in fear of being benched if they mess up and potentially dropped to the VFL after sitting on the bench for the rest of the game.

Our best period of play, late in the second quarter, was built around moving the ball quickly and being prepared to kick the ball to the danger area in front of goal, putting their faith in Whitnall, Fevola and even Kouta to take a grab. Yet straight after half time it was back to the hesitation and panicky style play. We really seem to play our best football when the players are moving the ball quickly and not trying to pinpoint 20-25 metre passes. We should be going for broke and taking some risks because we have nothing to lose by doing so.

 

[bibi01]

IMO pagan reaches for defensive football as our players are not skillfull enough to exeute an attacking style of football for 4 quarters.

this is only 1 factor and there can be/are many contributing factors as to why we play defensive and our players skills are not as good as they should be.

 

[Effes]

Pagan is finished

The game on the weekend was yet again another example of Pagan's inability to recognise swings in momentum and play to your strengths

I wasn't expecting a win

I expected us to TRY and win the game

Not come out after half time and YET AGAIN put Lance BEHIND THE BALL even when we had done well late in the 2nd with Lance up forward

How stupid of me to expect Lance to stay up forward given we were doing well

What an amazingly stupid coaching move. You can't get much worse than changing a combination which WORKED

ohhh hang on...............where else did this happen. The richmond game

A combination that was working (Fev, Lance, etc) and what does Pagan do? Put Lance down back

I can't understand why you would change a combination that was WORKING.

Not to mention the kickout strategy! What kickout strategy. Denis' comments after the richmond game were amazing; "we couldn't stop their kickouts" WELL WHY DIDN'T you have a strategy in place BEFORE the game?

Training watchers who go to training frequently comment that there is rarely any effort put into kickouts

How, in this day and age, could you neglect to focus on one of the most vital parts of today's game? Teams CONSTANTLY smash us from the kickouts

YOU DON'T NEED TO BE TALENTED TO PROTECT THE KICKOUT

It's amazing seeing the oposition kick a point, and then seeing us take forever to go and pick up the ball.

Maybe if we continue to get belted things will change

 

[MeeSo]

Our playing list is more to blame for our current plight than Pagan but he does appear to have run out of ideas. Three years of trying to restore confidence after a thrashing without support from the senior players will do that to a coach.

I just hope that when he gets replaced and we keep getting thrashed under the new coach that people will focus on the players deficiencies rather than the new coaches.

 

[Jimthegreat]

And you Blues fans know more about footy than Dennis Pagan???????????

Stupid comment. And I guess you didn't have an opinion about Dannt Frawley.

Some things are obvious.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Our playing list is more to blame for our current plight than Pagan but he does appear to have run out of ideas. Three years of trying to restore confidence after a thrashing without support from the senior players will do that to a coach.

I just hope that when he gets replaced and we keep getting thrashed under the new coach that people will focus on the players deficiencies rather than the new coaches.

Probably get better results when players have a go under a coach they respect. Better game, better match ups and team selections and better skills because the players will be more focussed and committed. Might give a forward line of Fev, Lance, Waite, Fisher, Betts, Lappin, which is a damn good one (providing some of these players are played there), some chance chance to kick some goals, and actually give our mid-field some targets forward rather than always being behind the ball. Hence easier to execute their skills with numbers up forward to aim for rather than being outnumbered badly there as we are now, especially when player are running hard and deep in more committed fashion. Might be more like 2004, when we weren't that far off finals, and 2005 pre-season. You might find the list isn't as bad as what you think, not necessarily a jet engine, but not a plough horse either.

 

[one_twelve112]

Pagan is using a 20th century gameplan in a 21st century game.

Pagan's paddock is not working without Wayne Carey. The flood will not and is not winning us games, and I would rather see the team go out there and have a crack than play the flooding style game to stem the losses.

Did anyone see how well we played with a 6 man forward line? Think it was the second quarter and we looked great until Pagan reverted back to 3 man setup and a flood.

After his coaching performance against the Tigers and Swans (players were not told to man up but to flood), I am finding it extremely hard to support him.

It is argued that it is the cattle not the coach...Why are Fremantle so poor with all that talent? Geelong? How haven't St Kilda won a flag in the past 3 years? S#$t coach!!! How did Sydney win the flag with a list that was good at best in terms of talent? They were instructed to play to their strenghts and did so.

I think it is almost time for a new coach and some new ideas....

 

[BlueFeaver]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so please be kind!
I think Pagan has reached a point where he himself has lost faith in what the team is capable of. At this point in time he is analysing how he can stop the opposition rather than beat the opposition.
I remmember Rocket saying in a interview, in the later years when he was at the Swans he would look at all the other teams strengths rather than his own sides!
This may make sense to some, but what it does is make the coach re-active rather than pro-active. This is Pagans problem!
He needs to throw caution to the wind.
When or if he makes this change the team will feel the confidence from him and will react positively. It may sound crazy but our skill errors, poor decision making and lack of team work is mostly between the ears caused by a lack of belief. We may not win any more games than what we would with the status-quo in the short term, but it would give the team and supporters belief in the future.
Pagan is a good coach and I think he can restore our club to it's rightful place, but he needs to make changes quickly.

 

[one_twelve112]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so please be kind!
I think Pagan has reached a point where he himself has lost faith in what the team is capable of. At this point in time he is analysing how he can stop the opposition rather than beat the opposition.
I remmember Rocket saying in a interview, in the later years when he was at the Swans he would look at all the other teams strengths rather than his own sides!
This may make sense to some, but what it does is make the coach re-active rather than pro-active. This is Pagans problem!
He needs to throw caution to the wind.
When or if he makes this change the team will feel the confidence from him and will react positively. It may sound crazy but our skill errors, poor decision making and lack of team work is mostly between the ears caused by a lack of belief. We may not win any more games than what we would with the status-quo in the short term, but it would give the team and supporters belief in the future.
Pagan is a good coach and I think he can restore our club to it's rightful place, but he needs to make changes quickly.

Excellent first thread, keep up the good work.

 

[Funkalicous]

I remmember Rocket saying in a interview, in the later years when he was at the Swans he would look at all the other teams strengths rather than his own sides!

Which is probably why he and Terry Wallace quit their repective clubs when they thought there was little more they can do. If Pagan is in a similar situation, where he believes the flooding gameplan is the only way his team can get close to sides, then he shouldn't even see out the day.

 

[bibi01]

IMO the players should be playing for the pride of representing the navy blue of Carlton FC or at least playing for personal pride.
if we are relying on players to play good football for the respect of the coach then we have the wrong group of players.

todays players are highly paid professionals, football is their job and their income, its not like the old days where football was played for the love of the game and players had day jobs and played football on a saturday afternooon for a bit of extra cash. in the old days players may have played for the coach.

 

[irish_setanta]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so please be kind!
I think Pagan has reached a point where he himself has lost faith in what the team is capable of. At this point in time he is analysing how he can stop the opposition rather than beat the opposition.
I remmember Rocket saying in a interview, in the later years when he was at the Swans he would look at all the other teams strengths rather than his own sides!
This may make sense to some, but what it does is make the coach re-active rather than pro-active. This is Pagans problem!
He needs to throw caution to the wind.
When or if he makes this change the team will feel the confidence from him and will react positively. It may sound crazy but our skill errors, poor decision making and lack of team work is mostly between the ears caused by a lack of belief. We may not win any more games than what we would with the status-quo in the short term, but it would give the team and supporters belief in the future.
Pagan is a good coach and I think he can restore our club to it's rightful place, but he needs to make changes quickly.

Good first thread and welcome to big footy.

 

[BlueFeaver]

IMO the players should be playing for the pride of representing the navy blue of Carlton FC or at least playing for personal pride.
if we are relying on players to play good football for the respect of the coach then we have the wrong group of players.

todays players are highly paid professionals, football is their job and their income, its not like the old days where football was played for the love of the game and players had day jobs and played football on a saturday afternooon for a bit of extra cash. in the old days players may have played for the coach.

Every player on our list goes out with the intention to win. But if they lack confidence not just in themselves but in the team as a whole things go horribly wrong. This lack of confidence is a cancer in our great club, we were renowned for 100 years as being arragont, and we were rightly so!
We were a confident club from the boot studder to the president, we need to get this back. It has to start with Pagan and the Board putting together a plan for the future, something that us fans can look too and endorse. Chances are Pagan won't be around to see the fruits of his labours but he has a chance at shaping the future of our club. Remmember this guy is a competitor, the current circumstance would be cutting him to bits. Don't think these guys don't hurt when they loose. Sure enough not all of them are Blue but nearly all will bleed for a win.
We need confidence to come from the top down!
A sign of Faith in Pagan,a publicised plan for the future and a united Board with one common goal is the recipe for success. This will give us answers, provide insight and confidence for our current and future sponsors and most of all give the players confidence that the club is behind them in support.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Which is probably why he and Terry Wallace quit their repective clubs when they thought there was little more they can do. If Pagan is in a similar situation, where he believes the flooding gameplan is the only way his team can get close to sides, then he shouldn't even see out the day.

It's not. our best efforts have been when we haven't flooded. Gives the players so much more confidence by allowing them to be more creative. We might take a thrashing or two but we'd win more games as well. Flooding isn't exactly getting us close right now and given our forward line is our strength the idea of any coach in any sport is to plan to play to it.

 

[bluey blue]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so please be kind!
I think Pagan has reached a point where he himself has lost faith in what the team is capable of. At this point in time he is analysing how he can stop the opposition rather than beat the opposition.
I remmember Rocket saying in a interview, in the later years when he was at the Swans he would look at all the other teams strengths rather than his own sides!
This may make sense to some, but what it does is make the coach re-active rather than pro-active. This is Pagans problem!
He needs to throw caution to the wind.
When or if he makes this change the team will feel the confidence from him and will react positively. It may sound crazy but our skill errors, poor decision making and lack of team work is mostly between the ears caused by a lack of belief. We may not win any more games than what we would with the status-quo in the short term, but it would give the team and supporters belief in the future.
Pagan is a good coach and I think he can restore our club to it's rightful place, but he needs to make changes quickly.

I agree that he has become more defensive but I think that this a tactic used to stop the huge floggings we were getting last year and all teams have become more defensive. I think that the coaching staff are intune with our lists current ability and as they improve and grow in age and experience a new game plan will evolve. I hope so anyway!

 

[BOBCAT]

Excellent first thread, keep up the good work.

I agree..i am new too and i think this is an excellent thread
...my question is why does Pagan not play Andrew Walker more on the ball and let the kid have his head a bit..i think that sometimes Pagan is too defensive with him...he is a very good player ..he needs to teach more and let him become a good onballer without a tagging role

 

[BlueFeaver]

I agree..i am new too and i think this is an excellent thread
...my question is why does Pagan not play Andrew Walker more on the ball and let the kid have his head a bit..i think that sometimes Pagan is too defensive with him...he is a very good player ..he needs to teach more and let him become a good onballer without a tagging role

As we all know Pagan is from the old school and believes in the "Football Apprenticeships". At the moment Walker is in his last year, so I would think next year we will see him with more time in the centre. I know its hard watching Walker play a defensive role but he will and the team be better for it in the future. Look at the likes of the Saints and Cats, we all know how hard it is to win a Premiership, do you think either of these teams will win one. Both the coaches are under pressure of expectation due to the relative talent of their list. My theory is the two respective coaches have fast tracked alot of the developement for short term success. More complete coaches will build a side or even a "Dynasty", this is what I think Pagan will do for us in time with the likes of Murphy, Bower, Walker, Waite, Kennedy, Carrots, Bentick, Harts, Blackwell, Russell, Edwards, Betts and hopefully Gibbs/Sellar.

Just a last note on Walker, I was talking to a young fella who played against Walker in TAC Cup. This kid played for Eastern Ranges and now plays for Box Hill, he told me that Walker is a absolute "freak". He said he is more than likely the best blend of athlete going around in the AFL. Apperantly once his confidence is up he is near on unstoppable and is a taggers nightmare, with excellant pace and a tank that never seems to end.

 

[bibi01]

I agree..i am new too and i think this is an excellent thread
...my question is why does Pagan not play Andrew Walker more on the ball and let the kid have his head a bit..i think that sometimes Pagan is too defensive with him...he is a very good player ..he needs to teach more and let him become a good onballer without a tagging role

we are doing a similar things to what hawthorn did with hodge, obviously different circumstances.

play then across half back until they are ready to be released in the midfield on a full time basis.

 

[pumped]

Hi everyone, this is my first post so please be kind!
I think Pagan has reached a point where he himself has lost faith in what the team is capable of. At this point in time he is analysing how he can stop the opposition rather than beat the opposition.
I remmember Rocket saying in a interview, in the later years when he was at the Swans he would look at all the other teams strengths rather than his own sides!
This may make sense to some, but what it does is make the coach re-active rather than pro-active. This is Pagans problem!
He needs to throw caution to the wind.
When or if he makes this change the team will feel the confidence from him and will react positively. It may sound crazy but our skill errors, poor decision making and lack of team work is mostly between the ears caused by a lack of belief. We may not win any more games than what we would with the status-quo in the short term, but it would give the team and supporters belief in the future.
Pagan is a good coach and I think he can restore our club to it's rightful place, but he needs to make changes quickly.

Hi BlueFeaver,

Based on your first post you are a Godsend. Couldn't agree more with your thoughts. You have looked deeply into the issue at hand and come up with a very constructive post. Keep up the good work...we need more supporters with your ability to think rationally. In fact coach and side could take a leaf out of your book.

 

[BOBCAT]

As we all know Pagan is from the old school and believes in the "Football Apprenticeships". At the moment Walker is in his last year, so I would think next year we will see him with more time in the centre. I know its hard watching Walker play a defensive role but he will and the team be better for it in the future. Look at the likes of the Saints and Cats, we all know how hard it is to win a Premiership, do you think either of these teams will win one. Both the coaches are under pressure of expectation due to the relative talent of their list. My theory is the two respective coaches have fast tracked alot of the developement for short term success. More complete coaches will build a side or even a "Dynasty", this is what I think Pagan will do for us in time with the likes of Murphy, Bower, Walker, Waite, Kennedy, Carrots, Bentick, Harts, Blackwell, Russell, Edwards, Betts and hopefully Gibbs/Sellar.

Just a last note on Walker, I was talking to a young fella who played against Walker in TAC Cup. This kid played for Eastern Ranges and now plays for Box Hill, he told me that Walker is a absolute "freak". He said he is more than likely the best blend of athlete going around in the AFL. Apperantly once his confidence is up he is near on unstoppable and is a taggers nightmare, with excellant pace and a tank that never seems to end.

I understand .... but i think that carlton would get greater beneif from Walker playing along side Kouta and him learning from a great player rather than being defensive all of the time and learning from op' sides..

 

[BlueFeaver]

I understand .... but i think that carlton would get greater beneif from Walker playing along side Kouta and him learning from a great player rather than being defensive all of the time and learning from op' sides..

Walker even on a back flank will not be defensive once his confidence is up, Pagan has put him back there to build his confidence. As this grows Walker will spend more time in the centre, the Back flank is merely Walkers comfort zone. From all reports we will know when his confidence is back it will be nothing short of spectacular!