Pathetic

[stickman11]

Yes, we were pathetic. The matchups were pathetic, the kicking to the forwards was pathetic, the way we moved the ball out of the backline was pathetic and all the players (Bar Jamar and Sylvia) were pathetic.

I am seriously begining to doubt Baily. Ok it is alright to trot out the lines that we are young, he can see improvement, we're still a long way behind the rest but at the end of the day, his game plan isn't working, he has been there for 18 months, our skills are the worst in the league. I cannot see where we have improved.

Playing Bell who has an whose ball efficency was 54% is bizzare.

 

[Pipefitter]

And to think our team yesterday was collectively 5 years older than collingwood. Collingwood were better drilled, better coached. The lot. We play dumb football.

 

[merkinboyce]

Bell was good.

sarcasm?

i understand him getting a game to prove his worth before seasons end, but surely he (along with Newton) are top of the list for delisting material. cos we will need to get rid of at least 5 duds and those 2 would be favourites.

sylvia was brilliant, davey standard silky skills, grimey tried hard all day and did well, jamar reasonable, bate did well with the pathetic entries into fwd 50.

robbo is finished, pj is a hack, warnock is surely filling a hole until garland is back, and jmac is past it.

 

[JuveRule]

And to think our team yesterday was collectively 5 years older than collingwood. Collingwood were better drilled, better coached. The lot. We play dumb football.

Try 30-odd days.

Was it Mick Malthouse who said that? Ridiculous.

 

[KissStephanie]

Try 30-odd days.

That's not right. Melbourne were about 30 days older on average per player, which is about 22 months collectively.

Was it Mick Malthouse who said that? Ridiculous.

I think he said that Melbourne were collectively two years older than Collingwood yesterday, which was about right.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

That's not right. Melbourne were about 30 days older on average per player, which is about 22 months collectively.I think he said that Melbourne were collectively two years older than Collingwood yesterday, which was about right.

No he said 5 years. Though we did average about 95 games per player compared to Melbournes 83 per player.

 

[demonfan9]

I am sick of that ****ing stat. The Hawthorn supporters pulled it out a few weeks ago, now the Collingwood supporters are doing the same.

Our total/average age is skewed by the presence of several veterans in our side.

McDonald (33)
Robertson (30)
Bruce (29)
Whelan (29)
Green (28)

Every other player on the field was 25 or younger. That's 77% of the team. By comparison, just 63% of Collingwood's team was 25 years or younger.

To summarise, stats can easily be skewed to suit any argument. That thing that matters when referring to youth is the number of young players in the team, not the combined total of the team.

 

[KissStephanie]

No he said 5 years. Though we did average about 95 games per player compared to Melbournes 83 per player.

If he did say five years, then he definitely made a mistake. Only Sydney, Geelong and St.Kilda are collectively five years or more older than Collingwood.

I am sick of that ****ing stat.

I'm not. It can be insightful regarding the future. Last year, Collingwood were the youngest team to win a final since Brisbane in 2000, and they went on to win the next three premierships. Brisbane were also thrashed in the 2001 Practice Match Cup final as Collingwood were this season, and they were also four wins and five losses after Round 9 as Collingwood were two weeks ago as well.

Our total/average age is skewed by the presence of several veterans in our side.

James McDonald is getting on fair enough, but he is Melbourne's captain though, and the other four players are probably in Melbourne's best side as well, so it's not fair to mention them. Without them, then I don't think they would have been as competitive as they have been at times this season.

All teams need about four or five players in their late-20's-early-30's, just as Collingwood has. Simon Prestigiacomo at 31 years was the oldest. Also, Collingwood's best team is even younger than the team that played last weekend, because apart from Paul Medhurst, and maybe Sean Rusling and Cameron Wood, I think that two 19 year olds, Dayne Beams and John McCarthy should be in the team.

Every other player on the field was 25 or younger. That's 77% of the team. By comparison, just 63% of Collingwood's team was 25 years or younger.

Melbourne played 17 players that were 25 years old or under, but Aaron Davey has since turned 26 years of age, so that now makes it 16 players that are 25 or younger. Collingwood played 14 players that are 25 years of age or under, but Nick Maxwell had just had his 26th birthday earlier in the week. Alan Didak is the other Collingwood player that is also 26 years old.

To summarise, stats can easily be skewed to suit any argument.

Melbourne has 46 players on their list at an average age of 22.66 years. Collingwood has 47 players on their list at an average age of 22.91 years. There is nothing between that. Collingwood's oldest player is Anthony Rocca who is about 31.75 years old. He is the heart and soul of the club, but is now a bit part player and it is hard to see him in Collingwood's best team, so therefore if he is taken from that list, then Collingwood also has 46 players at an average age of 22.71 years, which is the 4th youngest and only insignificantly older. Not bad for a team that played finals the past two seasons and has their eyes on at least a top-4 spot this season. Ben Johnson is 28 years old, and I can't see him in Collingwood's best team either.

That thing that matters when referring to youth is the number of young players in the team, not the combined total of the team.

Well it's not as simple as that, and it's your opinion which I disagree with. It's all subjective because it depends on how important or not the older players are, and whether or not the younger players are any good. If Melbourne's oldest player is 33, then he is an important player, otherwise he would not be captain, while one or more of the players that are 25 years or younger may not be good enough, or ever good enough, and that goes for all teams. Therefore I think the average age is equally important as the number of younger players who may or not be any good. Collingwood's average age was younger than Melbourne's on Monday.

That said, many Collingwood supporters would like to see 30 year old Shane O'Bree out of the side, at the expense of 19 year old Dayne Beams or 19 year John McCarthy, even though I definitely think that O'Bree is still in Collingwood's best team. Many Collingwood supporters would like to see 27 year old Leigh Brown out of the team at the expense of 22 year old Cameron Wood, or 22 year old Sean Rusling, or 20 year old Ben Reid, or 20 year old Chris Dawes, who has kicked three goals in a winning final last year.

No matter how it is spun, or how it is looked at, there is nothing between the ages of Collingwood and Melbourne.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

No matter how it is spun, or how it is looked at, there is nothing between the ages of Collingwood and Melbourne.

Only if you take the stats literally.

As was already said, our older players are well into the twilight of their careers and a number of them are likely to retire this season or next. That distorts the picture when you make this comparison.

Edit- looks like I was a bit hard on her here...

 

[KissStephanie]

Only if you deliberately take the stats literally and ignore other evidence, Stephanie.

I have no idea what you mean. What evidence? That there is practically nothing between the ages of Collingwood and Melbourne and that Collingwood's average age on Monday was younger than Melbourne's? I am actually trying to be objective by clearly stating that the slightly younger average age of Collingwood on Monday is equally significant to the slightly more 25 year olds or younger that played for Melbourne on Monday.

There are a number of Collingwood players that are under the age of 25 that are pushing for selection as I mentioned in my previous post, and in the last two seasons, Melbourne has played 31 players that were 25 years old or younger at the time that are still on the list now, so Chris Johnson, Isaac Weetra and Jace Bode do not count. In the same period of time, Collingwood has played 29 players that were 25 years old or younger at the time that are still on the list now, so Chris Egan and Ryan Lonie do not count either.

That is insignificant, and the difference is that Melbourne were in a position to experiment because finals were not a thought in the past two years because they've been on the bottom of the ladder the whole time, while Collingwood has continued to play almost as many young players while remaining in the top eight. And, most importantly the combined Super Coach and Dream Team scores of those 29 Collingwood players is greater on average than the 31 Melbourne players in the same age group. Therefore, no matter how it is spun, or how it is looked at, there is nothing between the ages of Collingwood and Melbourne.

As was already said, our older players are well into the twilight of their careers and a number of them are likely to retire this season or next.

Which players? James McDonald is Melbourne's captain, so he must be an important player. Russell Robertson is only 30 years old and will play on, and so will Bruce, Green, and Whelan who are still in their 20's for goodness sake. I believe they are all in Melbourne's best team, or at least very important depth players that will not retire at the end of this season.

On the other hand, Anthony Rocca is nearly 32, and as much as I don't want him to retire, he is not in Collingwood's best team. Ben Johnson is 28, and he is not in Collingwood's best team either and neither of them played against Melbourne. Simon Prestigiacomo is 31, Shane O'Bree is 30, and Tarkyn Lockyer is 29, so according to your opinion, wouldn't that mean that those five players are in the twilight of their careers as well?

That distorts the picture when you make this comparison.

What picture has been distorted? I don't understand.

But it seems like you have sought to avoid addressing this in your message, I think!

There is nothing that you've said in this post that makes me feel any different. I am not trying to suggest that Collingwood is younger than Melbourne, because we are not, but I do believe that the difference in age is insignificant. The average age of both lists is almost identical. The number of 25 year olds or younger played in the past two years is almost the same.

The average age of the Collingwood team that played on Monday was younger, while Melbourne played slightly more 25 year olds or younger. Collingwood's best side in my opinion is even younger than the one that played on Monday and features more under 25 year olds that played as well. When Melbourne is a finals threat, then I believe that Collingwood still will be because the best is ahead for both clubs unlike Geelong and St.Kilda who have peaked now.

In the meantime, maybe Collingwood can pinch a premiership before their time as Hawthorn did last season. Time will tell.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Fair enough... impressive response Stephanie, kudos to you on that. Even though I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions, I can't find any major fault in your basic logic, that is a sound enough statistical analysis, if we assume those statistics are sufficiently relevant - that is, looking at the importance of age as against the importance of match experience.

Apologies for what was, I think, an unduly combative response from me as well, but it's been that kind of time on BF the last couple of days.

However, I would point out that Garland, Meesen and Wonaeamirri are still to come back into our lineup, and Watts has a lot of developing to do, Blease and Jurrah still to come into this team over time, amongst others.

Also, I'd say your middle-age and older players are, on average, simply performing at a higher level than ours at the moment, unfortunately- although many of our middle-age players are capable of more than they've shown.

But while saying this, I would point out that our match against your mob was undeniably our worst performance all year, so it's not a particularly good yardstick for anything.

Incidentally, I think Robertson, Wheatley, and McDonald, at least, are either in their last season or close to it.

 

[The Great Gabsby]

Average age alone can be a very misleading stat. You can have 11 18 year olds and 11 30 year olds and get an average age of 24. You can also have 22 24 year olds and get the same age. I wonder which team you would rather??
Deviation from the average makes a massive difference.

Also, Melbourne's ages are not really representative of the games experience. We've had a number of players who have missed entire seasons injured (Rivers, Moloney), and some who have only started playing senior football recently (Warnock) who might be 24-25 but have the games experience of a 22-23 year old.

I would much rather look at average number of games rather than average age as an indicator of where a team should be at.

 

[KissStephanie]

Fair enough... impressive response Stephanie, kudos to you on that.

I'm definitely not a troll and I'm also not the kind of person that unfairly bags my team or other teams. I try not to look at things with rose-coloured glasses either. I try to be as objective and as fair as I can be for a Collingwood supporter that loves my club, and I can do no more than that.

Even though I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions, that is an incisive analysis of things.

I think I have given a reasonably objective opinion.

Apologies for what was maybe an unduly combative response from me, but it's been that kind of time on BF the last couple of days.

That won't happen with me because it's not my style. I have more problems with other Collingwood supporters that are always calling for the head of Mick Malthouse and certain players such as Shane O'Bree, Leigh Brown and Alan Toovey and expecting too much from a young list while ignoring the positives that Collingwood has shown in the past three seasons.

However, I would point out that Garland, Meesen and Wonaeamirri are still to come back into our lineup, and Watts has a lot of developing to do

I included those three players in the 31 25 year olds and younger that Melbourne have played in the past two seasons. John Meesen could be a handy ruckman, although Cameron Wood has been better this year according to this comparison and I think he can come in to to help Josh Fraser. He was unlucky to be dropped for the Melbourne match.

From what I understand, from here on the other side of the world, Collin Garland has improved this season, and Austin Wonaeamirri is definitely in Melbourne's best team. He is another exciting indigenous player as Brad Dick's five goals showed on Monday, and his three goals the previous week against Port Adelaide.

Blease and Jurrah still to come into this team over time, amongst others.

There is no doubt that Melbourne's future is very promising. They've drafted well over the past two seasons. For Collingwood to get Cameron Wood, John McCarthy and Jaxson Barham after finishing third in 2007, and Steele Sidebottom and Dayne Beams last season after finishing sixth was great as well though.

Also, I'd say your middle-age and older players are, in the main, at a higher level than ours, unfortunately- although many of our middle-age players are capable of more than they've shown.

Paul Medhurst is 27 but didn't play against Melbourne, Leon Davis is 27, and Alan Didak is 26, and they are three of Collingwood's most important players for sure from that age group. Nick Maxwell, who is 26, Tarkyn Lockyer who is 29 and Shane O'Bree who is 30 are also solid contributers. 31 year old Presti has been fantastic all season too.

And that game on the weekend is certainly our worst performance all year, so it's not a particularly good yardstick for anything.

Last season, Collingwood beat Geelong by 86 points. It was the only match that Geelong lost before the Grand Final. It was not a true guide. In Round 7, St.Kilda beat Collingwood by 88 points, and that was far from a true guide and there were definitely contributing factors. St.Kilda are playing their best footy in the first half of this season, and I think Collingwood will be playing their best footy in the second half of this season. Collingwood beat St.Kilda twice last season and it would be great to play them in the finals because I know that Collingwood can beat them. My point is that I understand that floggings can be turned around quickly.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

I'm definitely not a troll and I'm also not the kind of person that unfairly bags my team or other teams. I try not to look at things with rose-coloured glasses either. I try to be as objective and as fair as I can be for a Collingwood supporter that loves my club, and I can do no more than that. I think I have given a reasonably objective opinion.

That won't happen with me because it's not my style. I have more problems with other Collingwood supporters that are always calling for the head of Mick Malthouse and certain players such as Shane O'Bree, Leigh Brown and Alan Toovey and expecting too much from a young list while ignoring the positives that Collingwood has shown in the past three seasons.

I included those three players in the 31 25 year olds and younger that Melbourne have played in the past two seasons. John Meesen could be a handy ruckman, although Cameron Wood has been better this year according to this comparison and I think he can come in to to help Josh Fraser. He was unlucky to be dropped for the Melbourne match.

From what I understand, from here on the other side of the world, Collin Garland has improved this season, and Austin Wonaeamirri is definitely in Melbourne's best team. He is another exciting indigenous player as Brad Dick's five goals showed on Monday, and his three goals the previous week against Port Adelaide.

There is no doubt that Melbourne's future is very promising. They've drafted well over the past two seasons. For Collingwood to get Cameron Wood, John McCarthy and Jaxson Barham after finishing third in 2007, and Steele Sidebottom and Dayne Beams last season after finishing sixth was great as well though.

Paul Medhurst is 27 but didn't play against Melbourne, Leon Davis is 27, and Alan Didak is 26, and they are three of Collingwood's most important players for sure from that age group. Nick Maxwell, who is 26, Tarkyn Lockyer who is 29 and Shane O'Bree who is 30 are also solid contributers. 31 year old Presti has been fantastic all season too.

Last season, Collingwood beat Geelong by 86 points. It was the only match that Geelong lost before the Grand Final. It was not a true guide. In Round 7, St.Kilda beat Collingwood by 88 points, and that was far from a true guide and there were definitely contributing factors. St.Kilda are playing their best footy in the first half of this season, and I think Collingwood will be playing their best footy in the second half of this season. Collingwood beat St.Kilda twice last season and it would be great to play them in the finals because I know that Collingwood can beat them. My point is that I understand that floggings can be turned around quickly.

Can't really add any more to that at the moment, except to say that's another post of good quality on these issues.

Hope you open up your profile for messages etc. too. I looked at it a little earlier and it seems like we share the same political outlook perhaps.

How do you get the match broadcast over there by the way? As I was discussing with another New Yorker who follows Collingwood a couple of days ago, there's a good UStream option he and I both use, and I regularly direct people to it from this board on match days.

 

[stickman11]

Maybe Brock owes AFL some money or something, something going on behind the scenes we're not privy to..

TBH I wrote off Jones a couple of weeks ago, but i'm back on the bandwagon now, until the next game when has another stinker of course

I like Jonesy though, every AFL team needs a couple of bald men. Look at Geelong?? They've got about 5 in there best 22.

I think Barry Prendergast should be scouting for 1 or 2 bald kids to pick up at the draft in Nov.

Does anyone know if Jones can kick.

While he is a tough player who gets the ball, he always appears to try and do too much and ****s it up. Why handball so much, especially to a player who is under more pressure than him. I would love to see him kick the ball tather than try to take on three opponents and give the ball up.

And why does Miller mark the ball on the fifty and handball of where there is a turnover. Pump it long to the goal square and hope for somene to get lucky.

It is these simple things that Bailey should have addressed by now but nothing seems to change.

The other anoying factor is our skill errors. Playes such as Jones, Mclean, Bruce, McDonald and Green should be leading the way - they have been playing the game long enough.

There is a need for someone to go in hard and give them a quick kick up the backside.

 

[acuce]

Your such a tool stephanie like the rest of your supporter base.

Stats can be used in a number of ways to manipulate the truth.

The only reason why the pies had a younger side overall was because of our veterans such as whelan, mcdonald, bruce, robbo. The stat means nothing because players peak between their early to mid 20's, which is where a lot of you side is at. Therefore you team should be well-equipped to beat a side like ours. And remember we had 5 teenagers playing; your side had only 1.

End of story you twit.

 

[Colin Grigson]

Does anyone know if Jones can kick.

While he is a tough player who gets the ball, he always appears to try and do too much and ****s it up. Why handball so much, especially to a player who is under more pressure than him. I would love to see him kick the ball tather than try to take on three opponents and give the ball up.

And why does Miller mark the ball on the fifty and handball of where there is a turnover. Pump it long to the goal square and hope for somene to get lucky.

It is these simple things that Bailey should have addressed by now but nothing seems to change.

The other anoying factor is our skill errors. Playes such as Jones, Mclean, Bruce, McDonald and Green should be leading the way - they have been playing the game long enough.

There is a need for someone to go in hard and give them a quick kick up the backside.

That's the worrying thing, its the guys who've been around for 3+ years that are unable to execute basic skills on a regular basis. I mean, when you've got McLean, Jones, Moloney, Bruce, Green, etc.. rotating through the midfield, you'd expect us to at least break even in the clinches...but we're not even doing that...

We're not winning the contested ball, and apparently we're just being let down by a lack of pace and classy disposal from the outside..

 

[whelan=legend]

Your such a tool stephanie like the rest of your supporter base.

Stats can be used in a number of ways to manipulate the truth.

The only reason why the pies had a younger side overall was because of our veterans such as whelan, mcdonald, bruce, robbo. The stat means nothing because players peak between their early to mid 20's, which is where a lot of you side is at. Therefore you team should be well-equipped to beat a side like ours. And remember we had 5 teenagers playing; your side had only 1.

End of story you twit.

No need to be so harsh mate but i agree with the premise of the argument.

Players that skew up the average such as Bell, Whelan, McDonald and Robbo are fringe players.

I know for one i would rather Bennell over Bell, Strauss to have a go over McDonald, Martin for Whelan and Jurrah over Robbo. You do that and not only would our average age decrease dramatically, but our performances would improve also.

Can't wait to see Blease have a run with Scully next year too.

 

[RandB]

We're not winning the contested ball, and apparently we're just being let down by a lack of pace and classy disposal from the outside..

When you don't win the contested ball then you are simply not in the game and we were bad against the Pies. The problem that 'stickman11' raised about how we handball to players under pressure (once we do get the ball) actually is related to a few things but lack of pace is one of them. We don't have enough (if any) mids atm who have the confidence or ability to run the lines or break from an opponent. What happens as a result is that we are static and handball too much in circles. At centre bounces we fall to ground too often and if we do get the ball, rarely do we break with a direct run and carry with players in support - the understanding and movement quite simply is not there.

How often do we get the ball out of defence only to come to a stand still as the ball carrier has nobody to offload to (on the run) and everyone is manned up down the ground? We are probably the worst team at catching the opposition on the break and at bursting out of the middle.

Pace alone is not the answer, we need a smarter midfield set up as well and confidence to take opponents on. Winning the contested ball is something we have improved at and as far as getting first hands on the ball at centre bounces go we aren't too bad, it is what happens next which is the problem - there is not enough time to think before you get tackled and this is where quickness and a well performed gameplan comes into it.

 

[Dez!]

No need to be so harsh mate but i agree with the premise of the argument.

Players that skew up the average such as Bell, Whelan, McDonald and Robbo are fringe players.

I know for one i would rather Bennell over Bell, Strauss to have a go over McDonald, Martin for Whelan and Jurrah over Robbo. You do that and not only would our average age decrease dramatically, but our performances would improve also.

Can't wait to see Blease have a run with Scully next year too.

Really don't understand how you came to that conclusion.

Bennell over Bell I can agree with because we've seen him produce at AFL level.

Strauss over McDonald is a silly thing to say, sure on Strauss' potential it's right but that's all your basing it on, potential. Strauss has played 1 decent game at VFL level.

Martin over Whelan is 50/50, when fit Wrecker is a very good addition to our backline and seeing as Martin and Whelan would play on different types of players then I don't get how you could take one over the other.

Jurrah over Robbo is another one I don't get, both capable of playing in the same forward line, no need to pick one over the other.

I really don't understand how you can say our performances would improve by making those changes.

Bennell>Bell = Improve, I agree with that.

Strauss>McDonald = Wouldn't improve, Strauss isn't ready for AFL yet and even if Junior isn't getting a lot of the ball he can still do the shut down role.

Martin>Whelan = Would only improve if a team was top heavy and we needed another tall down back, no need to pick one or the other otherwise.

Jurrah>Robbo = Picking Jurrah over Robbo would hurt Jurrah as he'd draw a better defender than what he would get if Robbo was in the same forward line. You are underestimating the importance of having Robbo severely.

 

[whelan=legend]

Strauss>McDonald = Wouldn't improve, Strauss isn't ready for AFL yet and even if Junior isn't getting a lot of the ball he can still do the shut down role.

McDonald has been horrible lately and should retire. I know he is our captain and all, but he is just plain shithouse. Someone needs to come out and say it. He is well past it.

Just look at who he was running with or should i say 'shutting down' last week - Scott Pendlebury. What a fine job he did.

McDonalds game on the weekend - 8 disposals with 5 clangers. I would rather Strauss in, any day of the week.

 

[WattsGoodForYou]

I like Jnr alot but he goes to ground so easy and struggles with disposal. Been a great servant, but i have suspected he only got the captaincy so untill one of the younger brigade could step up. his best is behind him and Bailey often starts him on the I/C. Yes i know alot of stars do but really you want you captain to grab the game by the balls and show some leadership early. Not keep the pine warm. I suspect this is his last year as i cant see him being forced into a foward pocket to kick goals next yr like older players often are (Yze) or a back pocket because he is too weak, though a good tackler. Out with the old in the Scully.

 

[Mr Controversy]

It was a pathetic game indeed but we were due for a hammering. I was a little upset with our endeavor at times but its games like these that you get to see who has character and who hasnt.

Colin was fantastic and credit to him, however for him to be out of the woods he has to be able to play like that when his being tagged week in week out. Thats what makes a great player not someone that runs free all game. He will get tagged from here on end so will see how he goes for the rest of the year.

Mclean is a very good player the fact is he is there to do a job. Our midfield is poor and he cant be the link player, in and under player, break through the lines player and so on.... all at once. His job is to be aggressive and to win the contested ball, thats what he does and untill we get some support around him he will continue to battle with his speed and decision making.

Macca will be gone by the end of the year and so will robbo. Players like Bates need to stand up i know his playing out of position but i feel he lacks a bit of aggression at times. He needs to want to ball more...

 

[Dez!]

McDonald has been horrible lately and should retire. I know he is our captain and all, but he is just plain shithouse. Someone needs to come out and say it. He is well past it.

Just look at who he was running with or should i say 'shutting down' last week - Scott Pendlebury. What a fine job he did.

McDonalds game on the weekend - 8 disposals with 5 clangers. I would rather Strauss in, any day of the week.

He had a shit game against Collingwood yes, but watching Strauss at VFL level and reading the reports from Peter German he's struggled with the pace of the game and at the moment would get absolutely slaughtered at AFL level.

My point anyway was that it's not as simple as taking out one player and putting in another based on potential and saying, "yep we'll be better now because he's supposed to be awesome".

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

He had a shit game against Collingwood yes, but watching Strauss at VFL level and reading the reports from Peter German he's struggled with the pace of the game and at the moment would get absolutely slaughtered at AFL level.

My point anyway was that it's not as simple as taking out one player and putting in another based on potential and saying, "yep we'll be better now because he's supposed to be awesome".

Well, it's been a season & a half since DB began the job of jettisoning the dead wood and replacing players by natural attrition, together with the process of building a complete, formidable team able to achieve what we all want them to- my estimate is we're about 40% of the way through that whole process at this stage.