Crankyhawk
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Not unless his appeal is successful.
Learn how our law functions, troll.
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Religion Pell Guilty!
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Learn how our law functions, troll.
Crankyhawk
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No sneering or mob hate, just pity for the level of denial you are in.
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Many pedophiles have been known to molest children whilst their parents and family are in the house at the time. How could they be so stupid? It is part of the power trip they have. Pell thought he was invincible and had numerous times molested children, once in a public swimming pool. To get away with it in St.Pats Cathedral would really get his rocks off. It would be the ultimate thrill for him. One sick, piece of shit.
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You called me a fake don’t backpeddle
And for the last ****ing time the comment was made about Pell not you
Stop ****ing lying already
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Who is this minder person? What is their job?
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You think you’re a martyr, like Bolt and his buddies do.
If he gets up on appeal basically this whole thread will be reversed and you will be claiming that the legal system works, while many of those who hate Pell will be saying it’s just money/influence/corruption which got him out of it.
I was baptized catholic (though now I’d consider myself agnostic and all religions not any better or worse than another) and I think Pell is a terrible human being, before this trial even began, for all the cover ups and lies alone.
Now there have been a lot of other accusations which they haven’t been able to get him on, I think he’s not only done this crime but many others.
Also as others have noted you are teeing off saying he’s innocent without knowing what was actually said in court.
It smacks of you not wanting to believe (as it is with many others) as it shatters some illusions you have in life, and your identity is tied up into thinking that Pell and his ilk are untouchable morally pure God messengers.
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An Open Response to Andrew Bolt.
*******
Dear Mr Bolt,
My name is Clare Linane. As you know, I am a Ballarat local who has been living with the aftermath of child sexual abuse for many years. My husband, Peter Blenkiron, is a survivor of clergy abuse at 11 years old. You met him whilst in Rome three years ago.
I am compelled to write to you after you expressed your opinion that George Pell has been falsely convicted (27 & 28 Feb, Herald Sun).
You are entitled to your opinion.
What concerns me, however, is your statement that your opinion is based on “overwhelming evidence”. I believe this is misleading, irresponsible and ignorant. Your lack of genuine insight into the issue of sexual child abuse makes a mockery of survivors and all they have endured.
The “overwhelming evidence” you mention includes some of the following points (*), which I would like to respond to in an attempt to help educate you about this issue:
* “One of the boys, now dead, denied he’d been abused”
To provide context for readers, when the mother of the now deceased victim asked him, more than once, if he had been sexually assaulted - he denied it.
Among survivors of clergy (and non-clergy) childhood sexual abuse, it is common for them to deny the abuse occurred. As vulnerable children, they are incredibly embarrassed, confused, and ashamed. They do not understand what has happened to them, and their shame is magnified by the revered status of their abuser. According to the rigorous Report for the Royal Commission into The Impact of Delayed Reporting on the Prosecution and Outcomes of Child Sexual Abuse Cases….“children have also been found to be less likely to disclose and more likely to delay if the perpetrator is a parent or parent figure, or a person in a position of trust and authority”
I asked my own husband about this. Although Brother Edward Dowlan had molested and r*ped him in 1974, when his parents asked him in 1975 if anything had happened to him, his response was to vehemently deny it. He states, “You deny it because you don’t want them to feel guilty. You don’t want them to carry the guilt of having sent you to this wonderful school, within their wonderful Church….only for you to be abused. So you just deny it, to protect them”.
The piece of important evidence you do fail to point out, is that the deceased victim began using heroin at 14 years of age, after enduring the abuse at 13. He abandoned a scholarship at St Kevins, spiraled into drug abuse, and died of a heroin overdose at 30.
This pathway is sadly all too common for sexual abuse victims.
* “The other (alleged victim) whose identity and testimony remain secret, didn’t speak of it for many years”
According to the same report, “Boys and adolescent males are less likely than their female counterparts to disclose child sexual abuse at the time of the abuse. When they do disclose, they take longer to do so….For example…in a 2008 study…for nearly half the men (45 per cent), it took at least 20 years for them to discuss their abuse”.
Additionally, The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse Final Report (2017) found that the average time it took for men to disclose was 25.7 years. The surviving choirboy disclosed 19 years after his abuse – earlier than average. The other choirboy died 18 years after his abuse, so was also well inside the average.
Given this evidence, the fact that one of the complainants didn’t speak of his abuse for many years is, it would seem, indicative of a genuine abuse survivor; not a reason to doubt, as you imply.
* “It allegedly happened in the sacristy, normally a very busy room”
You state in your article that you are not a Catholic. I am curious to know why you believe the sacristy is normally a very busy room?
I was raised a Catholic, and have asked my extensive network of Catholic friends and family about the sacristy. I’m yet to find one who tells me the sacristy was, or is, ‘normally’ very busy. The adjectives used have included “quiet…weird…uncomfortable…scary…silent…solemn”.
* “.where Pell would have known people were almost certain to walk in”
The prospect of discovery did not deter clergy abusers. Children were r*ped with their parents in the next room. In St Alipius, Ballarat, one child I know of was physically carried away from the playground by Ridsdale and Best, screaming for his life, in front of the other children. At St Patricks College, boys were physically punished at the back of the classroom then molested while the rest of the class faced forward.
To use your words, at any stage all of these abusers would have known “people were almost certain to walk in”. And yet they proceeded. Their revered status as ‘next to God’, and their knowledge that the organisation for which they worked was not about to hold them accountable, meant the risk of discovery was not a deterrent.
* “There is no history or pattern of similar abuse by Pell, unlike with real Church pedophiles such as Gerard Ridsdale”.
This point is totally irrelevant to Pell’s guilt or otherwise.
Sexual abuse of children is a crime. You don’t have to do it to (at least) 65 children like Ridsdale; just the once.
Furthermore, it is incorrect. There is a pattern in the allegations about Pell. The fifth count relates to Pell pushing one of the choirboys and grabbing his genitals. The Southwell inquiry in 2002 saw a complainant making an allegation of Pell “getting a good handful” of his genitals in the water at Phillip Island. In that internal Church Inquiry Justice Southwell found that he believed both the complainant and Pell. Similar claims were made by the Eureka Pool complainants, one of whom died, another of whom was to be the complainant in the so-called “swimming pool trial”. That trial was dropped because of the evidence of another complainant was ruled inadmissible. The judge did NOT rule out the evidence of the complainant who made the grabbing allegations.
* ”the man I know seems not just incapable of such abuse, but so intelligent and cautious that he would never risk his brilliant career or good name on such a mad assault in such a public place”.
I’ve never met George Pell so I cannot give a personal opinion of what he is capable of. Even if I could, it would be totally irrelevant to his likely guilt or innocence and would most certainly not be ‘overwhelming evidence’.
Pedophiles can be otherwise lovely, intelligent, charismatic people. We know from history they include extremely successful politicians, celebrities, judges, teachers, priests….they are from all walks of life and run the whole gamut from stupid to brilliant, charming to repulsive.
* “Maybe they misremembered. Maybe they had the wrong guy”
Please spend some time listening to survivors recount their experiences. You’ll notice that whilst they might be blurry with exact dates and times, the details of the perpetrator they sadly cannot get out of their head. My husband struggles to wear aftershave because Dowlan wore it whilst he abused him. He remembers looking at the shaving nicks on his abusers neck as the molestation took place, and the scent of what came to be, to him, the sickening smell of cologne. Another survivor I know gets physically ill when someone smokes Alpine cigarettes around him, because one of his abusers smoked them.
Furthermore, these boys were 13, not 3. Their brain development at that age makes them well and truly capable of facial recognition. George Pell has always had a very distinctive physical presence and had been Archbishop for several months at the time. He was extremely well-known, not just in the cathedral but also in the media and society more generally. The victim in this case is unlikely to have mixed Pell up with another 6 foot 4 archbishop.
* “I would, and did, read the transcripts of the trial”.
No Andrew, you may have read a partial transcript. The full transcript is not available to you or any of us. Only the survivor, the police, the lawyers, the judge, the jury and Pell have heard all the evidence. So please stop implying that you know all the facts: you do not, and nor do I.
* “Could this attack have happened when not a single witness corroborated a single one of the accuser’s’ claims?”
Yes, it could. I am yet to meet a survivor who had a witness to the crime committed against them. And yet these crimes occurred.
To conclude, Andrew, I reiterate that you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But please don't make the irresponsible claim that it is based on "overwhelming evidence"
This week, I’ve been asked my opinion many, many times. My response?
“Any opinion I have is irrelevant and ill-informed, because I am not privy to all the facts of the case.”
How about everyone stops trying to convince people of Pell’s innocence or guilt; it is not the most important issue here.
We have hundreds, potentially thousands of survivors throughout Australia who have not yet come forward. And when the likes of yourself, and other commentators, use your public profile to cast doubt over the outcome of a trial, you make these people even less likely to come forward and get the assistance they so desperately need.
If you want to support Pell, go and visit him in jail. Help fund his appeal. Take Miranda Devine with you.
In the meantime, here in Ballarat we are going to continue to try to deal with the fact that our suicide rate among males is twice that of Melbourne and 65 percent greater than the Victorian average.
We are going to keep helping women, children, mothers, fathers, and siblings pick up the pieces as their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers prematurely end their lives.
We are going to keep lobbying for the redress scheme that the Royal Commission recommended, so that our survivors get the practical and emotional assistance they need.
We are going to keep trying to figure out how to reverse what has now become a cultural problem whereby males in our community resort to suicide instead of seeking help.
Honestly, the fact that our most senior Catholic has been jailed is the least of our worries right now.
*******
Dear Mr Bolt,
My name is Clare Linane. As you know, I am a Ballarat local who has been living with the aftermath of child sexual abuse for many years. My husband, Peter Blenkiron, is a survivor of clergy abuse at 11 years old. You met him whilst in Rome three years ago.
I am compelled to write to you after you expressed your opinion that George Pell has been falsely convicted (27 & 28 Feb, Herald Sun).
You are entitled to your opinion.
What concerns me, however, is your statement that your opinion is based on “overwhelming evidence”. I believe this is misleading, irresponsible and ignorant. Your lack of genuine insight into the issue of sexual child abuse makes a mockery of survivors and all they have endured.
The “overwhelming evidence” you mention includes some of the following points (*), which I would like to respond to in an attempt to help educate you about this issue:
* “One of the boys, now dead, denied he’d been abused”
To provide context for readers, when the mother of the now deceased victim asked him, more than once, if he had been sexually assaulted - he denied it.
Among survivors of clergy (and non-clergy) childhood sexual abuse, it is common for them to deny the abuse occurred. As vulnerable children, they are incredibly embarrassed, confused, and ashamed. They do not understand what has happened to them, and their shame is magnified by the revered status of their abuser. According to the rigorous Report for the Royal Commission into The Impact of Delayed Reporting on the Prosecution and Outcomes of Child Sexual Abuse Cases….“children have also been found to be less likely to disclose and more likely to delay if the perpetrator is a parent or parent figure, or a person in a position of trust and authority”
I asked my own husband about this. Although Brother Edward Dowlan had molested and r*ped him in 1974, when his parents asked him in 1975 if anything had happened to him, his response was to vehemently deny it. He states, “You deny it because you don’t want them to feel guilty. You don’t want them to carry the guilt of having sent you to this wonderful school, within their wonderful Church….only for you to be abused. So you just deny it, to protect them”.
The piece of important evidence you do fail to point out, is that the deceased victim began using heroin at 14 years of age, after enduring the abuse at 13. He abandoned a scholarship at St Kevins, spiraled into drug abuse, and died of a heroin overdose at 30.
This pathway is sadly all too common for sexual abuse victims.
* “The other (alleged victim) whose identity and testimony remain secret, didn’t speak of it for many years”
According to the same report, “Boys and adolescent males are less likely than their female counterparts to disclose child sexual abuse at the time of the abuse. When they do disclose, they take longer to do so….For example…in a 2008 study…for nearly half the men (45 per cent), it took at least 20 years for them to discuss their abuse”.
Additionally, The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse Final Report (2017) found that the average time it took for men to disclose was 25.7 years. The surviving choirboy disclosed 19 years after his abuse – earlier than average. The other choirboy died 18 years after his abuse, so was also well inside the average.
Given this evidence, the fact that one of the complainants didn’t speak of his abuse for many years is, it would seem, indicative of a genuine abuse survivor; not a reason to doubt, as you imply.
* “It allegedly happened in the sacristy, normally a very busy room”
You state in your article that you are not a Catholic. I am curious to know why you believe the sacristy is normally a very busy room?
I was raised a Catholic, and have asked my extensive network of Catholic friends and family about the sacristy. I’m yet to find one who tells me the sacristy was, or is, ‘normally’ very busy. The adjectives used have included “quiet…weird…uncomfortable…scary…silent…solemn”.
* “.where Pell would have known people were almost certain to walk in”
The prospect of discovery did not deter clergy abusers. Children were r*ped with their parents in the next room. In St Alipius, Ballarat, one child I know of was physically carried away from the playground by Ridsdale and Best, screaming for his life, in front of the other children. At St Patricks College, boys were physically punished at the back of the classroom then molested while the rest of the class faced forward.
To use your words, at any stage all of these abusers would have known “people were almost certain to walk in”. And yet they proceeded. Their revered status as ‘next to God’, and their knowledge that the organisation for which they worked was not about to hold them accountable, meant the risk of discovery was not a deterrent.
* “There is no history or pattern of similar abuse by Pell, unlike with real Church pedophiles such as Gerard Ridsdale”.
This point is totally irrelevant to Pell’s guilt or otherwise.
Sexual abuse of children is a crime. You don’t have to do it to (at least) 65 children like Ridsdale; just the once.
Furthermore, it is incorrect. There is a pattern in the allegations about Pell. The fifth count relates to Pell pushing one of the choirboys and grabbing his genitals. The Southwell inquiry in 2002 saw a complainant making an allegation of Pell “getting a good handful” of his genitals in the water at Phillip Island. In that internal Church Inquiry Justice Southwell found that he believed both the complainant and Pell. Similar claims were made by the Eureka Pool complainants, one of whom died, another of whom was to be the complainant in the so-called “swimming pool trial”. That trial was dropped because of the evidence of another complainant was ruled inadmissible. The judge did NOT rule out the evidence of the complainant who made the grabbing allegations.
* ”the man I know seems not just incapable of such abuse, but so intelligent and cautious that he would never risk his brilliant career or good name on such a mad assault in such a public place”.
I’ve never met George Pell so I cannot give a personal opinion of what he is capable of. Even if I could, it would be totally irrelevant to his likely guilt or innocence and would most certainly not be ‘overwhelming evidence’.
Pedophiles can be otherwise lovely, intelligent, charismatic people. We know from history they include extremely successful politicians, celebrities, judges, teachers, priests….they are from all walks of life and run the whole gamut from stupid to brilliant, charming to repulsive.
* “Maybe they misremembered. Maybe they had the wrong guy”
Please spend some time listening to survivors recount their experiences. You’ll notice that whilst they might be blurry with exact dates and times, the details of the perpetrator they sadly cannot get out of their head. My husband struggles to wear aftershave because Dowlan wore it whilst he abused him. He remembers looking at the shaving nicks on his abusers neck as the molestation took place, and the scent of what came to be, to him, the sickening smell of cologne. Another survivor I know gets physically ill when someone smokes Alpine cigarettes around him, because one of his abusers smoked them.
Furthermore, these boys were 13, not 3. Their brain development at that age makes them well and truly capable of facial recognition. George Pell has always had a very distinctive physical presence and had been Archbishop for several months at the time. He was extremely well-known, not just in the cathedral but also in the media and society more generally. The victim in this case is unlikely to have mixed Pell up with another 6 foot 4 archbishop.
* “I would, and did, read the transcripts of the trial”.
No Andrew, you may have read a partial transcript. The full transcript is not available to you or any of us. Only the survivor, the police, the lawyers, the judge, the jury and Pell have heard all the evidence. So please stop implying that you know all the facts: you do not, and nor do I.
* “Could this attack have happened when not a single witness corroborated a single one of the accuser’s’ claims?”
Yes, it could. I am yet to meet a survivor who had a witness to the crime committed against them. And yet these crimes occurred.
To conclude, Andrew, I reiterate that you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But please don't make the irresponsible claim that it is based on "overwhelming evidence"
This week, I’ve been asked my opinion many, many times. My response?
“Any opinion I have is irrelevant and ill-informed, because I am not privy to all the facts of the case.”
How about everyone stops trying to convince people of Pell’s innocence or guilt; it is not the most important issue here.
We have hundreds, potentially thousands of survivors throughout Australia who have not yet come forward. And when the likes of yourself, and other commentators, use your public profile to cast doubt over the outcome of a trial, you make these people even less likely to come forward and get the assistance they so desperately need.
If you want to support Pell, go and visit him in jail. Help fund his appeal. Take Miranda Devine with you.
In the meantime, here in Ballarat we are going to continue to try to deal with the fact that our suicide rate among males is twice that of Melbourne and 65 percent greater than the Victorian average.
We are going to keep helping women, children, mothers, fathers, and siblings pick up the pieces as their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers prematurely end their lives.
We are going to keep lobbying for the redress scheme that the Royal Commission recommended, so that our survivors get the practical and emotional assistance they need.
We are going to keep trying to figure out how to reverse what has now become a cultural problem whereby males in our community resort to suicide instead of seeking help.
Honestly, the fact that our most senior Catholic has been jailed is the least of our worries right now.
sherb
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Again, you put the word victim in that particular post in inverted commas - ie "victim".
It was clear what you meant. Don't run away from it.
Strange Cat
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The poster has also written quite clearly “ wouldn’t want to give sympathy to fake victims”
The backpeddling and gaslighting is offensive...all over me making a dark joke about Pell a convicted child rapist
sherb
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Another lawsuit has been filed against Pell. Claims of abuse between 1974-78 at St.Josephs Boys home in Ballarat.
Colonial
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The fact he has been found guilty, even with the power of that cult and the right wing media personalities and leaders behind him, has given people hope that their tormentors can be punished.
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And this is because you were in the sacristy when it didn't happen? Had you any knowledge of philosophy you would be aware of the near-impossibility of saying that you know anything.
The grounds upon which you make this assertion of knowledge are built upon shifting sands. You weren't there. You haven't seen the evidence which led to a conviction. You are depending on previous behaviour, as perceived by you, to be a rolled gold indicator of current or future behaviour. That's plain silly. You are saying that, because of your particular mindset, it is impossible for an event to have happened.
Your position is based on nothing but an oft-stated impossibility that Pell did this, because you have had a seemingly fleeting and superficial relationship with him. Did this relationship involve having sex with him? If not, how do you know what his sexual predilections or modus operandi are? If so, you are involved in this story in a most unseemly fashion, which renders your views worthless and impossible to understand.
That you have never known the circumstances stated by the prosecution to have occurred with Pell, and the proven doings after a Mass at the cathedral, in no way make it necessary for the evidence of the prosecution to be invalid. All it means is that your thinking is so warped, for whatever reason, that you mistake what you think for what you know. Judging by your posts on this issue, you bring no critical thought to what you write, because you think you know. The fact is, rather than knowing, you are barely thinking at all.
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That didn't happen, because Bruce wasn't there for that event, and he knows it can't have happened. Any evidence to the contrary can be discounted until it passes the Bruce test. He knows for sure it didn't happen. The law suit is doomed, because Bruce says Pell is not that sort of guy.
Edit: Also, that Bruce has no knowledge whatsoever of the evidence in the above case is a certain indicator that it never happened.
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Will be interesting if more comes out after Pell has been found guilty. Might give victims some confidence that justice can be served. That early 60s allegation that was made in 2002 just went away without resolution.
sherb
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It's one of the accusers in the second trial for Pell which was abandoned.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...d-over-alleged-1970s-sexual-abuse-in-ballarat
Pell's an exception, the way Peter Comensoli and Frank Brennan have gone on you would think an Australian court has jailed Maximillian Kolbe or Hugh O'Flaherty.
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A s stated someone's funding the civil case for the Ballarat victims.
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On the topic of Saints, Mary MacKillop was briefly excommunicated for blowing the whistle on a child abusing priest:
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In the 1870s, which gives lie to the argument that the phenomenon was due to society’s liberalisation in the 60s and 70s
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I don't agree with your analysis. It only takes one factor to change the whole set of probabilities. Without being in court to hear all the evidence, we have to speak hypothetically but suppose, for example, that Pell was aware that the boys had sneaked off to the sacristy to drink wine and took advantage of the situation. Perhaps they had done it before. So he makes an excuse not to greet parishioners, gives his minder an instruction to take care of something else, and locks himself in the sacristy with the boys for a few minutes.
That said, demonstrating the possibility that the sexual assaults could have happened does not mean that they did. On what we know it's hard to understand how there was not reasonable doubt about whether Pell carried out the actions he was accused of.
Another hypothetical. Assume for a second that Pell did not sexually assault the two boys. What possible defence could he have mounted that would have been successful?
Bishop Phillip Wilson formally apologised to the order in 2009. Bet that meant alot
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The way I see it, this is an anonymous internet forum so you can't necessarily accept people's words about their personal life at face value. But clearly there are victims of abuse by Catholic priests and brothers in the community, and the emotions being expressed by posters here might be typical of those victims. No need to talk about "victims" or frauds.
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