List Mgmt. Player Ages Thread

[GUMBLETRON]

I think the confusion/disagreement stems from this being rooted in the discussion of Bellchambers' value. In that context Seedsman wouldn't be nearly enough.

 

[BrunoV]

If it was for a ready to go number one ruck, arguably our number 1 ruck, it would would certainly need something else.

 

[Pweter]

All the talk of trading talls is starting to get to me. Our talls are as per below.

Fletcher - retired end of 2013 or 2014 at the latest
Hille - retire end of 2013
Carlisle - FB
Hooker - CHB
Pears - 3rd tall defender
Gregory - Somewhere in defence
Hurley - Potential FB or FF
JD - FF
Gumbleton - CHF
Crameri - 3rd tall
Ryder - ruck
Bellchambers ruck

I am not convinced Fletcher will go around again. This is the 2nd year running where his groins have been giving him trouble. He is an ultimate Essendon man and it wouldn't suprise me if he is thinking that he's had his time in the sun with 2 flags and the club is in a good position to launch so his work is done (wouldn't totally surprise if he went for 1 more though).

If we were to lose Hille and Fletcher it doesn't leave us a hell of a lot of depth in the tall department. We are looking at 4 defenders, 3 forwards, 1 swingman and 2 ruckmen. Say Hooker and Ryder go down injured we are left with Carlisle, Hurley, Pears in defence, JD, Gumby, Crameri forward, Bellchambers in ruck.

That leaves Gregory as the only tall left on our list.

The issue I am seeing is that pretty much all of our talls other than Gregory are deserving of a spot in the 22, there isn't really any depth players to fill a need if required. If we trade any of our talls out, we need to replace them with depth talls in return plus something which adds to our 22 immediately.

This has me thinking we will fight tooth and nail to keep every one of them. Talk of trading 1 or 2 of them for pick 1 is completely misplaced imo.

 

[BrunoV]

In heated agreement with you Pweter. Pears is the only one I think we can cover and I seriously doubt whether we would get anything for him that would make a trade worth it (as long as he wants to stay).

 

[Pweter]

In heated agreement with you Pweter. Pears is the only one I think we can cover and I seriously doubt whether we would get anything for him that would make a trade worth it (as long as he wants to stay).

On The Hangar last night Pears was pretty convincing in saying he wants to stay. Whether he was taking the piss or not I don't know, but he looked and sounded genuine when he said it.

 

[fishardansin]

I am only interested in players who can fit a role in our best 22. Would rather Seedsman than Sidebottom.

Seedsman would be behind Dempsey or Hibberd. They are both better defenders and better offensive players.

Also people need to realise that footy is not 100% professional, or more to the point there is more than just your wage and job responsibility that leads to choosing the company you'll work for.

In footy there is the tight bonds that being part of a club brings. The effect of playing for the team you grew up following is also very strong. Unless Zaka, Heppell, Crameri, Hocking, Watson and Winderlich are treated horribly by the club and there is some personal battle with a member of the coaching staff (ala Brent Moloney) they wont be going anywhere.

Seedsman is the same with Collingwood. He was such a nutty pies supporter he would cancel social events if Collingwood lost ..... too depressed to socialise!!

I don't care what anyone says if I had the talent to play AFL I would naturally feel more committed to Essendon than any other club. I have grown up with a distinct dislike of a number of clubs and see how the happiness of four generations of my family hinges on the results of Essendon for nearly half of the year. When I was a young kid the jumpers were still woollen. I can remember refusing to take off any day I wore it to school. That effects your outlook on life!

 

[BrunoV]

It is a discussion about which player would be a more appropriate target given his skills, our deficiencies and the cost it would take to complete the trade.

Short of Buclkey doing a total Neeld, as opposed to the partial Neeld he is currently, there is no way in hell the Pies are parting with either Sidebottom or Seedsman.

 

[Keystone agony]

So you have virtually answered one of my questions (bringing in mature players rather out lf form rather than form positional players).

I have been talking longer term, 2-3 years down the track.

(I'll use another 2nd/3rd player as an example)
Where do you see Alex Browne playing in the seniors if/when he returns?

I havnt seen anywhere near enough of Browne to comment sorry mate. Hes one i dont know heaps about. I hear hes a capable halfback type and also a potential inside midfielder aswell.

I can see what your saying and i guess from watching the SANFL some game late last night they had Callinan playing HFF, whereas its similar hed be playing FP for the crows.

But remember in modern football HFF these days are basically just another midfielder and a ploy used by the coaches to drag a potential defender up the ground where there advantages cant be used to great effect. Its also a chance to get an elite user or a good user (maybe someone like a Zacka for us) to lose his man and get space and use the footy well.

Seedsman will be a very good player and already is, hes a typical Harry O maxwell type rebounding defender though. Not as many strings to his bow but the strings he has are very good.

 

[Yoda_]

Exactly what I'm talking about Keystone agony

As you've now worked out, the TRB aren't allowing the original player in question (Nick O'Brien) to play to his strengths, thus his stagnant development.

 

[Keystone agony]

Exactly what I'm talking about Keystone agony

As you've now worked out, the TRB aren't allowing the original player in question (Nick O'Brien) to play to his strengths, thus his stagnant development.

I think we believe he has different greatest strengths

For me
a) Endurance/running ability (anyone beating stanton has this strength)
b) size for that endurance ability. From memory (now im not gonna look) he is a high 180cm, low 90kg footballer and this will still progress into advantageous ways to his game as hes only been here for 2 years.

Its clear the club see him as a midfielder (you know the traditional rotate half forward/wing/onball type) he can play all these positions. Hes learning the ways right now of what it takes to be a true onballer. We havnt seen him at AFL level this year have we? no. So we arent sure where he would be played if he was to play at AFL level, i think hed be going through the midfield a bit if he was and maybe in a tagging role. He was named in our last 25 wasnt he? after an impressive tagging display coming at a time where we lose one of the best taggers in the game (Hocking).

Jetta is different IMO.

I cant comment on Browne

Colyer has played midfield at AFL level this year whether coming off a sub or what not.

As for NOB i think the club rates him pretty highly and he wont be going anywhere. Id think guys like Colyer, Jetta, Browne, Hardingham will be the ones that might go or drop to a potential rookie list position and we may not have to worry as we could have one of TBC, Pears, Gumby, Crameri going via trade. So that proposition might not be needed to be reached for another year which i think would be fair for those players and IMO we will probably lose all our picks anyway, so having just the minimal 3 could be a good idea.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

You raise an important point. We know (to a degree) that O'Brien can play as a forward, but there isn't much call for a player who does that and only that in the senior team, especially with Crameri and Davey playing alongside a couple of proper talls. Even someone like Winderlich who has been playing mostly forward, and who O'Brien could be seen as depth for for the moment has been spending time on the wing, off half back and the occasional rotation on the ball. As much as the forward line may be O'Brien's best position at the moment, if he's going to make it as a player he most likely need to develop that capacity to play elsewhere.

 

[Old Campaigner]

I reckon the club would love to re sign guys like Browne and NOB but they need to wait until higher priority players like Crameri and TBC have made their intentions known so the list management people have a better idea of how they need to manage the salary cap. It'd be pretty stupid to let TBC go because you signed a bunch of promising 2nd year players first and were $50k short of what he wanted.

 

[Keystone agony]

You raise an important point. We know (to a degree) that O'Brien can play as a half-forward, but there isn't much call for a player who does that and only that in the senior team, especially with Crameri and Davey playing alongside a couple of proper talls. Even someone like Winderlich who has been playing mostly forward, and who O'Brien could be seen as depth for for the moment has been spending time on the wing, off half back and the occasional rotation on the ball. As much as half-forward may be O'Brien's best position at the moment, if he's going to make it as a player he most likely need to develop that capacity to play elsewhere.

I think its more with the club trying to just fast track his development as a midfielder because IMO thats where his greatest strengths are and the club seems to agree.

I reckon the club would love to re sign guys like Browne and NOB but they need to wait until higher priority players like Crameri and TBC have made their intentions known so the list management people have a better idea of how they need to manage the salary cap. It'd be pretty stupid to let TBC go because you signed a bunch of promising 2nd year players first and were $50k short of what he wanted.

Yep even Gumby. If all Pears, TBC, Crameri, Gumby, Jetta are retained one of Colyer, NOB, Browne will probably make way if fletcher plays on which i think he will

 

[BrunoV]

I can't help but think that there has been a bit of an overreaction about status of the younger generation of players who have not played any or a lot of footy this year. We've had a really good run with injury and when the injuries have occurred it has been with the key position stocks so there hasn't been much of an opportunity to look at the O'Briens and Brownes of this world.

 

[Yoda_]

I can't help but think that there has been a bit of an overreaction about status of the younger generation of players who have not played any or a lot of footy this year. We've had a really good run with injury and when the injuries have occurred it has been with the key position stocks so there hasn't been much of an opportunity to look at the O'Briens and Brownes of this world.

To be fair BrunoV, I've seen a dozen or so games of VFL in the past 18 months or so and the 'nextgen' haven't been filling me with much confidence.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

Even then, 23 games so far this season from the non-Daniher first and second year players.

Now, 11 of those are Kommer, but that's still another new player getting a run nearly every week.

 

[Old Campaigner]

To be fair BrunoV, I've seen a dozen or so games of VFL in the past 18 months or so and the 'nextgen' haven't been filling me with much confidence.

But this might be exacerbated by the fact that there are a lot of immature bodies out there playing against more mature sides.

 

[Yoda_]

I think we believe he has different greatest strengths

For me
a) Endurance/running ability (anyone beating stanton has this strength)
b) size for that endurance ability. From memory (now im not gonna look) he is a high 180cm, low 90kg footballer and this will still progress into advantageous ways to his game as hes only been here for 2 years.

Its clear the club see him as a midfielder (you know the traditional rotate half forward/wing/onball type) he can play all these positions. Hes learning the ways right now of what it takes to be a true onballer. We havnt seen him at AFL level this year have we? no. So we arent sure where he would be played if he was to play at AFL level, i think hed be going through the midfield a bit if he was and maybe in a tagging role. He was named in our last 25 wasnt he? after an impressive tagging display coming at a time where we lose one of the best taggers in the game (Hocking).

Jetta is different IMO.

I cant comment on Browne

Colyer has played midfield at AFL level this year whether coming off a sub or what not.

As for NOB i think the club rates him pretty highly and he wont be going anywhere. Id think guys like Colyer, Jetta, Browne, Hardingham will be the ones that might go or drop to a potential rookie list position and we may not have to worry as we could have one of TBC, Pears, Gumby, Crameri going via trade. So that proposition might not be needed to be reached for another year which i think would be fair for those players and IMO we will probably lose all our picks anyway, so having just the minimal 3 could be a good idea.

I understand that eventually he will play as a midfielder, but as of right now, he will be a forward and should be developing that side of his game from VFL > AFL.


You raise a good point about dropping a player from te senior to rookie list. No successes as of yet with this rule only being in place a short amount of time but Alex Browne would be a perfect candidate for this. We all know he can play, hw just needs 12 months to show what he can do. Now whiter that remains as a senior list, a rookie list or jot at all, but he would be one guy worth holding onto.

 

[Yoda_]

But this might be exacerbated by the fact that there are a lot of immature bodies out there playing against more mature sides.

Stats can be deceiving and not explain the whole story.

Luke Hodge 2 - 3 week ago was 'apparently' best on ground with 15 possessions. It's about the way they move through traffic, the decision making, hitting targets, kicking goals.

 

[Zach Package]

the fact that NOB has the number 10 alone for me indicates that he's going nowhere.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Stats can be deceiving and not explain the whole story.

Luke Hodge 2 - 3 week ago was 'apparently' best on ground with 15 possessions. It's about the way they move through traffic, the decision making, hitting targets, kicking goals.

Yes but the way they move and think will depend on how the team as a whole is going, if they are under pressure because there are not enough strong bodies or they are worn out because a lot of the team hasn't yet got the tank to run out games it will show in more than just stats.

Anyway, I think it is pretty useless to discuss players so soon into their careers like this - a lot of water to go under the bridge yet.

 

[fishardansin]

I get the feeling that Essendon wont be making too much change if they can get away with it.

If Pears and Bellchambers are prepared to not be automatic selections then I'm sure the club would love to have them. With Hille, NLM and Fletch all likely to finish this year, there is the required change to senior list.

Last year was the big change in the list. I think they'd like to give Jetta, Colyer, Davis, NOB and those types another year. Of course Jetta is already contracted for next year.

 

[eth-dog]

What if a deal like:

Adams + 10 for Bellchambers and Pears came around? Would you take it?

 

[Keystone agony]

What if a deal like:

Adams + 10 for Bellchambers and Pears came around? Would you take it?

Thats pretty spot on currency IMO

but we cant afford to lose TBC, although if he wants out id take that deal pretty quickly.

Adams was pick 13 from memory in a pretty average side hes shown to improve from that ranking if anything and look a top 10 pick swap required for him, id take a semi proven AFL player over a completely unknown proven player that we could end up getting like a Moore, Cook ect but not many top 10 picks turn out to not make it anymore.

If we lost TBC wed have to go after another solid ruck, but their are plenty out there that can play VFL backup and step into AFL if needed as the number one ruck.

IMO we should be looking at guys like Hampson,Warnock, Currie, T.Campbell (just getting no chance) (Maybe even a Redden or Lobbe from port) i reckon they can only fit one of those guys in now, but we hardly give them better opportunities. It will be interesting to see how Geelong go with Blicavs, Simpson, HMAC, Vardy all fit and available. Who misses out might look elsewhere.

 

[Keystone agony]

I mean how well are essendon actually going in the VFL Yoda_ id like to see how players are comparing in stats terms and in visual terms (you might be able to help) in comparison of Alex Browne to guys like

K.Harper, George Horlin Smith (Geel), Hallahan (hawks), T.Davis (melb), T.Ledger (Stk)

as players in similar positions.

I know GHS probably has a much better side around him in the VFL in geelong, i dont followi the comp so id have to have a look, obviously harder to play in a worst off side and i know geelong won it last year didnt they