Player Development

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Adelaide Flying Youth Flag (article from Dec 2008)

Interesting that the club was speaking this way two and a half years ago, about the shift in our list profile and that developing youth was an important strategy we were about to embark upon.

http://www.afc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/4417/newsid/70580/default.aspx

Adelaide coach Neil Craig said the significant shift in the squad’s profile had been an important strategy embraced by the club.

“It challenges the club in many ways but it’s also exciting,” he said. “We needed to increase the number of quality young players coming into the club and we also need to find better ways to develop them as quickly as possible, to prepare them to play and perform in the AFL.

“We believe this year we had gathered the best group of young footballers this club has had for some time and the latest group of draftees should add to that, so that’s great for our club and our supporters.”

End of 2007/Start of 2008 Draftees
Dangerfield (played 53 out of a possible 80 games)
Walker 39
Otten 31
Petrenko 25
Cook 14
Armstrong 9
Martin 8
Jacky 3
Curnow 0
Kite 0
Moss 0

End of 2008/Start of 2009 Draftees
Sloane 22 (played 22 out of a possible 57 games)
Henderson 22
Davis 18
Schmidt 16
McKernan 11
Young 2
Lee 0
Donnelly 0

End of 2009/Start of 2010 Draftees
Jaensch (played 21 out of a possible 33 matches)
L Thompson 9
Wright 8
Gunston 6
Riley 0
Shaw 0
Craig 0
Talia 0

How many of these players have emerged as quality, first choice footballers? I would say only four are currently a lock to be selected in our first choice 22 each week when fit: Dangerfield, Sloane, Davis and Jaensch. The draft hit rate across all clubs is obviously fairly low and injuries of course will be a factor at every club, but four would seem a low number.

The point of the thread is to ask why is this number so low? Particularly given the profile of our list and the fact that we knew there was going to be significant player losses in a couple of years time.

Are the players we drafted just not that good or is it a question of player development? Have we been too reluctant to pick some of these players? Are equally talented (or less talented) players being drafted by other clubs and then going past our youngsters?

Or is the fact that some others are starting to emerge now (Otten, Petrenko, Wright, L Thompson) a sign that our player development is on track and we will see significantly improved results in 12-24 months time?

 

[TheTonic]

I think you can add Otten, Smack and Hendo to the list of players that have shown a bit of development. Especially Hendo given he never played the game.

I tihnk it's important to think about the age of this group. Most draftees don't show anything resembling consistent AFL form until they are 21-22 as a rule and many of our players are below this including Walker.

Can we compare our development of players in the same age bracket with other clubs and then also take into consideration that other sides have core senior players to take most of the workload or the hard taks from week to week.

Craig and Shaw we haven't seen due to injurie and were non rookie picks.

I will admit that Sellar, Cook have plateaued and not at a high level. But you can just tell these blokes just don't have any footy smarts and I'm failing to see these guys blooming in any system.

 

[Lawrst]

I would at this stage, the way our season and our list is looking, be picking all of the available each week.

Walker, Danger, Otten, Pets, Martin, Sloane, Hendo, Davis, Smack, Jeansch, Thompson, Wright, Gunner, Reily, Talia.

Thats a good spread right there. And a lot of playerswer are hopeful of becoming a really good side.

I think a LARGE failure of the clubs part in their development is the development of the senior players that are there. Reilly, VB, Vince, Douglas, Symes etc are not carrying enough weight. Porps, Mckay and a few other will help this later on. But not having good enough players taking the weight off our younger players will make them take longer.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Yeah The Tonic, comparing to other clubs is a good starting point. Here are the other clubs from the same three drafts and the players I consider to be first choice 22 (subjective I know).

Brisbane
Polkinghorne
Rich
Redden
Banfield
Rockliff

Carlton
Kreuzer
Armfield
Joseph
Ellard
Yarran
Robinson
J Garlett
Jamison

Collingwood
Sidebottom
Beams
Blair
Wellingham

Essendon
Myers
Pears
Hooker
Bellchambers
Hurley
Zaharakis
Melksham
Hardingham
Crameri

Fremantle
Mayne
Hill
Ballantyne
Suban
De Boer
Morabito
Fyfe
Broughton
Barlow

Geelong
Taylor
Mumford - since traded to Sydney
T Hunt
Menzel
Duncan

Hawthorn
Rioli
Schoenmakers
Shiels
Suckling
Stratton

Melbourne
Morton
Grimes
S Martin
Watts
J Bennell
Jurrah
McKenzie
Scully
Jack Trengove
Gysberts
Tapscott

North Melbourne
Greenwood
S Thompson
Grima
Ziebell
S Wright
L Anthony
Cunnington
Bastinac

Port Adelaide
Hartlett
Jackson Trengove
Broadbent
Pittard

Richmond
Cotchin
Rance
Vickery
Nahas
D Martin
Nason

St Kilda
McEvoy
Steven
McQualter

Sydney
S Reid
Bird
Hannebery
L Jetta

West Coast
Masten
Ebert
S Selwood
McGinnity
Naitanui
Shuey
A Smith

Western Bulldogs
Grant
Ward
Wood
Picken

 

[TheTonic]

Good effort there...

With Brisbane.... I agree they have some good developing players... but like us it's not doing them any good on the win loss. I think the time has come to acknowledge where we are at and start looking at the game plan rather than the scoreboard. Develop a game style, start letting the supporters in on what that is and manage the supporter base. I think we are open to it now given we all know where we are at.

I'd like to look at our tackling as a primary focus as I see the Porplyzia and Tippet injuries as identical hindsight cases of poor technique resulting in bad shoulder injuries. It's a long bow to draw... and you couldn't have seen it coming necessarily but the pudding is there. Our tackles are often desperate lunging straight arm efforts which result in unnatural pressure being applied to the joints. I don't know of any other club that has the voume of serious shoulder injuries that we do... Mackay, Porps, Tippett, Davis, Young just off thew top of my head.

I think injuries are a key reason for our situation and I'm open to a fresh coach next year if it's a quality person like Scott Burns. Not if it's Bassett, Goodwin or Bickley.

We know very well what we do well and what we don't. We don't need more types that'll only reinforce what we already know and do well (and poorly). The net has to be cast wide, the money needs to be spent on good quality people and not compromised by getting former players or locals. If this can't be done I'd like us to rally around the existing coach for another 18 months with some specialist assistants who are respected and have a proven track record in development roles.

 

[NTRabbit]

How many have emerged?

About the league average. It's impossible to go into a draft, pick 7 senior list players plus 4 rookies, and expect to come out with 11 genuine AFL standard players, let alone 11 stars. Out of that draft we have two potential stars (Dangerfield, Walker), three potential "B Grade" standard AFL players (Otten, Martin, Petrenko), and so far 6 discards - one of whom has since turned it around and made a career for himself at Carlton. Our number is not low.

It's not even as easy to simply compare across teams - Melbourne were so abysmal that a number of the names on that list were best 22 the day they walked through the door, without a single shred of development put into them by the Demons.

There are some others there you've listed who wouldn't really be getting a game in half the sides in the league, and I dispute the listing of some others - Ebert and Robinson off the top of my head.

The only team there doing above the average in any meaningful way is Fremantle, and I wouldn't have Morabito on that list just yet - saw plenty of him last year, and he had all the intensity and hardness of Luke Jericho.

The final list for us has also been stunted by player type and injury - we went tall again, something I've covered elsewhere, and the last three players have been injured for substantial periods of time.

 

[johnnypanther]

You do realize that our (low) rate of development has been inflated somewhat due to the abnormally high injury rate we have had at least over the past 2 seasons thus gifting games to a lot of those younger players

 

[NTRabbit]

You do realize that our (low) rate of development has been inflated somewhat due to the abnormally high injury rate we have had at least over the past 2 seasons thus gifting games to a lot of those younger players

With rare exceptions - usually the premier of that season - every team has injuries, and has younger squad members play in their place. It's the purpose of having a 40 man squad, instead of a 22 man squad.

Hell, across the league the average is 32 players used already, and it's only halfway through the season. Plenty of teams "artificially increasing their development" through injury there.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

How many have emerged?

About the league average. It's impossible to go into a draft, pick 7 senior list players plus 4 rookies, and expect to come out with 11 genuine AFL standard players, let alone 11 stars. Out of that draft we have two potential stars (Dangerfield, Walker), three potential "B Grade" standard AFL players (Otten, Martin, Petrenko), and so far 6 discards - one of whom has since turned it around and made a career for himself at Carlton. Our number is not low.

Granted that not every draftee will make it. I thought this was acknowledged in the OP?

Looking at the list of clubs there are some who have more actively promoted youth, others similar to us.

The clubs similar to us in general are the ones who have been sniffing around the top four and grand finals the last few years.

I believe our issue is that we have behaved like a club in 'premiership mode' when in reality we were in a position where more Fremantle, West Coast or Carlton type behaviour was warranted.

It's not even as easy to simply compare across teams - Melbourne were so abysmal that a number of the names on that list were best 22 the day they walked through the door, without a single shred of development put into them by the Demons.

There are some others there you've listed who wouldn't really be getting a game in half the sides in the league, and I dispute the listing of some others - Ebert and Robinson off the top of my head.

Robinson has played 37 games. No one we took from the equivalent draft has got close to that. He's played every game this season for a top four team.

Ebert has played 64 games. Again, no one we took from the equivalent draft has played that many.

As for not getting a game in half the sides yes it is easier to get in the Port team than it is the Collingwood team. So you're right, there are players listed that wouldn't get games at some other clubs Equally there are players at Collingwood or Geelong who would be getting games in lower teams. Swings and roundabouts.

The only team there doing above the average in any meaningful way is Fremantle, and I wouldn't have Morabito on that list just yet - saw plenty of him last year, and he had all the intensity and hardness of Luke Jericho.

First year draftee who played every game for a team that made finals.

The final list for us has also been stunted by player type and injury - we went tall again, something I've covered elsewhere, and the last three players have been injured for substantial periods of time.

We're not the only club who has had injuries nor are we the only club who has drafted talls. Even our smalls and mid-sized players have played relatively low numbers of matches.

 

[johnnypanther]

With rare exceptions - usually the premier of that season - every team has injuries, and has younger squad members play in their place. It's the purpose of having a 40 man squad, instead of a 22 man squad.

Hell, across the league the average is 32 players used already, and it's only halfway through the season. Plenty of teams "artificially increasing their development" through injury there.

Yes but my point is that we had an abnormally higher rate of injuries.

 

[NTRabbit]

Granted that not every draftee will make it. I thought this was acknowledged in the OP?

Looking at the list of clubs there are some who have more actively promoted youth, others similar to us.

The clubs similar to us in general are the ones who have been sniffing around the top four and grand finals the last few years.

I believe our issue is that we have behaved like a club in 'premiership mode' when in reality we were in a position where more Fremantle, West Coast or Carlton type behaviour was warranted.

In reality we behaved no differently to any of these sides. They simply played their best 22 every week - it just happened that both teams had so much dead wood, and so many retirements, that for those years those young players were their best available options. Funnily enough, we're at pretty much the same stage right now.

Robinson has played 37 games. No one we took from the equivalent draft has got close to that. He's played every game this season for a top four team.

Ebert has played 64 games. Again, no one we took from the equivalent draft has played that many.

Nevermind about Robinson, for some reason I keep confusing him with Aaron Joseph. As for Ebert, he's disputed on the Eagles forum - I think that right now he isn't in their best 22, and will at best struggle around the fringes with a number of other similar, very vanilla and very average midfielders that also haven't quite worked out there.

As for not getting a game in half the sides yes it is easier to get in the Port team than it is the Collingwood team. So you're right, there are players listed that wouldn't get games at some other clubs Equally there are players at Collingwood or Geelong who would be getting games in lower teams. Swings and roundabouts.

While true, Geelong and Collingwood at the top are only two teams, there are a lot more average to awful teams running around the league right now, so it's not really a balanced swing and roundabout

First year draftee who played every game for a team that made finals.

He did, but cruised and coasted quite a lot at the bottom of an otherwise quite handy midfield and in the view of some Fremantle supporters was lucky to survive the selection axe two or three times. If he keeps playing like that, he's more likely to be a Danyle Pearce than a David Mundy.

We're not the only club who has had injuries nor are we the only club who has drafted talls. Even our smalls and mid-sized players have played relatively low numbers of matches.

The only smalls in that list are both rookie listed players - both have been promoted to the senior list (temporarily) while one has played 9 games, and the other has been an emergency twice. One from two is a pretty decent result.

 

[birdmanptr]

End of 2007/Start of 2008 Draftees
Dangerfield (played 53 out of a possible 80 games)
Walker 39
Otten 31
Petrenko 25
Cook 14
Armstrong 9
Martin 8
Jacky 3
Curnow 0
Kite 0
Moss 0

End of 2008/Start of 2009 Draftees
Sloane 22 (played 22 out of a possible 57 games)
Henderson 22
Davis 18
Schmidt 16
McKernan 11
Young 2
Lee 0
Donnelly 0

End of 2009/Start of 2010 Draftees
Jaensch (played 21 out of a possible 33 matches)
L Thompson 9
Wright 8
Gunston 6
Riley 0
Shaw 0
Craig 0
Talia 0

The bolded players are the ones who i think have what it takes along with Snith.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

The bolded players are the ones who i think have what it takes along with Snith.

I agree with all the ones you've bolded. Couple of others too but I won't steer everyone down that well worn argument path again

Are you happy with the number of AFL games the players you have bolded have played thus far?

 

[birdmanptr]

I agree with all the ones you've bolded. Couple of others too but I won't steer everyone down that well worn argument path again

Are you happy with the number of AFL games the players you have bolded have played thus far?

Some yes some no.

Sloane missed 4 games this year and 6ish last year would be nice if he could stay out of the medical room.



Hopefully McKernan goes forward now Tipp is out and strings several games together.

Hopefully Smith gets back in and thay resisit with L.Thompson.

My only dissapointment is Henderson had high hopes for him but looks like he might not be up to it.

 

[Kickin_Goals]

I recon Curnow will make it my self.
And Martin will probably join him perhaps somewhere else, at this point it seems in a lot of players best interest to get out...

Really it'd be nice if we played some of these 0 gamers, noone sees a win in sight what exactly do some players have to do to get dropped...

Morabito rising star nominee
Round 4 pick
First year 18 year old 23 out of 24 games out for the 2011 season, would displace most of Adelaide's current side instrumental in their eliminating final win.
Yet he's not going to cut it....
Man some people are full of it, when you pick out this guy your reaching so far it's not just your head up your ass you've been swallowed entirely.
Yeah mate 18 year old mid fielders play out full seasons all the time in the AFL and can be guaranteed to chalk up heaps of minutes on ball and while being soft get 3.3 tackles per with some games of 10 or 12.
If your expecting consistency it'd be like me expecting opinion on talent to be worthwhile.

 

[StillCrowing]

I guess the concern would then become whether many of the players outside of the current 22 are ready to be playing in the AFL. If the current players are struggling, I'd hate to think how bad things could get if we just started replacing what few senior players we have with debutantes.

 

[weneverland]

It's not even as easy to simply compare across teams - Melbourne were so abysmal that a number of the names on that list were best 22 the day they walked through the door, without a single shred of development put into them by the Demons.

Also some of these teams tanked or performed badly enough to get low picks in the draft.

 

[Team DJ]

Thats been exactly my point for a while. Why should we believe that Craig is the right one to develop these players when he hasnt been able to do it with the players he shouldve already.