Positives from Round 1 ?

[WaynesWorld19]

Mattner had 5 or so tackles yesterday and is in our best 22 IMO - he's the guy I would be turning into a tagger as his offensive side is more potent than Shirley's. Evidence of this was that Shirley showed once again yesterday that 35 to 40 metres is the limit of his kicking distance.

NO!
He's been tried B4 and failed - it's his tackling that continually has his name raised as a tagger.

He's a naturally attacking player which we're starting to see more of, lets propogate that game not try and turn him into a tagger which he'll never be.

 

[relapse]

When WCE were giving us a points barrage in the lst qtr, It looked to me like we just wanted to stop WCE from scoring instead of trying to step up and score ourselves.

The game should have been wrapped up at half time, the second half should have been us putting the last 10-15 nails in the coffin.

We shouldn't be trying to defend 10-20 point leads.

totally agree, in fact during the last quarter I said to my friend early in the last quarter that we had to rely on holding West Coast goaless or to one goal at the most because we just were shut down past centre and didnt look like scoring any goals and it was just a question of whether the eagles would or wouldnt run out of time trying to run over the top of us and once we the Eagles hit the front I knew it was over.

 

[crowie]

totally agree, in fact during the last quarter I said to my friend early in the last quarter that we had to rely on holding West Coast goaless or to one goal at the most because we just were shut down past centre and didnt look like scoring any goals and it was just a question of whether the eagles would or wouldnt run out of time trying to run over the top of us and once we the Eagles hit the front I knew it was over.

It was when they went up by 11 that we thought we would try and beat the traffic, unfortunatley 20,000 others had the same idea

 

[relapse]

NO!
He's been tried B4 and failed - it's his tackling that continually has his name raised as a tagger.

He's a naturally attacking player which we're starting to see more of, lets propogate that game not try and turn him into a tagger which he'll never be.

Mattner is a prime example to our youngsters on how having an x factor will make you a useful player even if the skills arent quite there. What mattner currently lacks in crisp skills he makes up for with guts, his fearless attitute and hardness, long penetrating kicks and his tackling.

 

[relapse]

It was when they went up by 11 that we thought we would try and beat the traffic, unfortunatley 20,000 others had the same idea

I stayed till the siren, which happen to sound as we standing up to leave, but our intention was there to leave prior to the siren.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Couldnt agree more with you!! In my opinion if you are 26 years of age and are still trying to find your feet in the afl your not worth being on a list. Doughty isnt a young player and once you hit 24-28 you are in your prime and in 99 percent of cases playing the best possible football you can. You cant be 26 and hope that in a couple of years time he will develop into a good player it just wont happen.

Hungup on age again?
Who said Doughty is developing or finding his feet? - fact is he's playing good footy and is in the team on merit!, not as a future developing player.

Shirley is an alright tagger, but doesnt offer a lot. The modern day taggers are players that nulify their opponents, but do pickup possessions of their own Kane Cornes and Tyson Steglein are good examples of this and shirley is someone who plays because we dont have anyone else.

Agreed - short term solution but not the answer - would prefer to delope Van Berlo in this role to educate and give him experience - has played mostly as a defender so has a defensive side to his game as well as offensive.

From my observations Doughty, Shirley, Perrie, Ladhams, Bode, Begley and Massie are lucky to be on afl lists and when you consider that some games all of those players could be playing in the crows side is there any surprise we play as badly as what we do. Those guys are all dead wood in my opinion and if they consistantly play them this season at the expense of some of our younger player this will not help the crows in the long term. Scott Stevens, Hayden Skipworth and Nathan Bock I didnt add because I still feel they have age on their side and should have this year to prove their worth.

Your selections again are based on age - crap!
You either have the talent and capability or not, if not the fact your 18-20 doesn't change that fact. However their is a mental maturation process that sees some players playing their best footy as mature players (Josh Mahoney) which although they had the talent was bnot forthcoming at a younger age.

Rucci was right in todays paper our squad is poor and the reality is that we arent a side capable of getting into the eight. We have a small group of good top tier of players a small group of the middle tier players (welsh, burton etc) and a large group of dead wood players and players on the boundary of becoming dead wood and a smallish group of good youngsters who should hopefully form the core of our side for the future (johncock, reilly, thompson, rutton, hentschel) and some promising younger players (Watts, Jericho, Meesen, Maric, Van Berlo). The problem is the amount of our squad that is dead wood is far too high to build a successful AFL team around.

WE have IMO a lot of what most clubs would call depth players, very important to any successful team to have around their star players and cover for injuries during a long season. What we have lost is the absolute core talent (star quality) that we have lost in recent seasons - hopefully some astute recruiting will change that, but lets not expect our depth players to be more than what they are.

St Kilda have shown that if you have a good group of younger players the only way to make a side out of them is to play them. Yeah there might be a couple of seasons down the bottom, but they the team and the coach will reap the rewards down the track for the initial pain of a couple of poor seasons for the team.

Couldnever agree with the St Kilda model - absolute failure to perhaps build a successful team, participates in the 97 Grand Final and then spends the next 6 years on the bottom - mot a good business model.
However Essendon have showed how to do it whilst remaining competitive and you have to also admire Geelong who never dropped to St Kildas standard and arguably is on a similar level now.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Mattner is a prime example to our youngsters on how having an x factor will make you a useful player even if the skills arent quite there. What mattner currently lacks in crisp skills he makes up for with guts, his fearless attitute and hardness, long penetrating kicks and his tackling.

Yes its the X factor that you look for even when theyre making mistakes and developing their game.
Mattner has it, Reilly has it, Skippy, Bode, Shirley and Schuback do not.

 

[macca23]

Your kidding me if your referring to Reilleys shot for goal that hit the post.

Every player misses at that end to the left side, place to aim is to the right, Reilly appeared to aim for the right goal post believing the wind would bring it back, it didn't - how is that poor skill !!!!

Reilly regularly hit his targets for most of the day, he's probably one of the higher skilled players?

You're actually talking about the turning point of the whole game here WW.

Reilly kicks that goal, and we open up a buffer that gives us psychological impetus to win.

That was a standard bread and butter shot for an AFL footballer. I saw 20 to 30 of those kicked in other games for the week-end.

The fact that he does normally hit a target and is one of our higher skilled players only emphasizes the fact that he should have kicked it.

We lost that game yesterday rather than WCE won it. 3 set shots from Welsh, 1 from Johncock, that shot from Reilly - AFL players must kick the majority of those misses.

If we're happy to excuse misses like that all year, we're in a for a very long year.

 

[Bockchoy67]

Your kidding me if your referring to Reilleys shot for goal that hit the post.

Every player misses at that end to the left side, place to aim is to the right, Reilly appeared to aim for the right goal post believing the wind would bring it back, it didn't - how is that poor skill !!!!

Reilly regularly hit his targets for most of the day, he's probably one of the higher skilled players?

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Reilly's two errors in the third/fourth quarter.

Van Berlo could potentially be a very good tagger. He has good courage, good concentration skills, is a freak runner and has a good defensive side to his game, while also being offensive. I don't think this is the right season to give him such a large task, but in the future it wouldn't surprise me.

Shirley, right now, is in our best 22, because he is simply our best defensive option in the midfield. The problem is he has a very small offensive ability and in addition to this is VERY inconsistent.

To the person who said Mattner would be a good tagger, its been tried and its been unsucsessful. Marty's tackling and attack on the ball is very good, but his concentration really lets him down. Better off as a winger.

 

[macca23]

Post of the day so far !

I don't know about The Count as a tagger - but our selection policy must be to play our best 22 - we just don't have the luxury of depth to go with a fringe hack who is a good spoiler.... Sure - if we were Brisbane or even the Paps - we would have enough good players in the 22 to afford playing a specialist tagger. Our side drops off at about #10....so IMO, 11 to 22 are vital selections - unlike a more accomplished side.
Mattner had 5 or so tackles yesterday and is in our best 22 IMO - he's the guy I would be turning into a tagger as his offensive side is more potent than Shirley's. Evidence of this was that Shirley showed once again yesterday that 35 to 40 metres is the limit of his kicking distance.

C'mon MD. Credit where it's due. Shirley was terrific yesterday by reducing a Brownlow Medallist to a mediocre game. If every other player did their job as well, we would have shat in.

And it's Skippy that really struggles to kick over jam jars, not Shirley.

As for Mattner as a tagger, that's even less realistic. He's been tried before with the result being that his opponent has been BOG and won the game for the opposition.

Even though he has received a fair bit of kudos for his game on Sunday, his direct opponent Kerr absolutely carved him in the 3rd quarter with 13 disposals!!

 

[crowie]

This is a bit out of left field and I don't know if it would work as he is usually tagged himself, but what if we put McLeod in a tagging role. He is a great tackler, and there is no question about him keeping up with the top players plus when the opportunity arises he is a naturally attacking player so he can still have a positive input into the game.

 

[jo172]

Positives -

- The Biggest positive i notice is how well our midfield held up against the best midfield in the competition when we were missing Thompson and Goodwin and when Mcleod and Ricciutto aren't firing.

- When they kick the ball in to the forward line long and quick they look as good as any other side in the competition.

- Burton, Hart and Clarke all on limited preparation put in competitive games.

- Stevo didn't get injured

- Losing by 2 goals to a premiership favourite isn't that badder effort although I know we still could of won!

- It is now worth keeping Shirley on our list just for games when we are playing Judd. Shirley's form on Judd is baffling but pleasing.

- Thompson and Goodwin are coming back next week

Negatives

- We are in DESPARATE need of a forward line crumber. Too many times West Coast defenders were getting the ball as it fell to ground and rebounding out of defence.

- When the pressure was on in the last quarter our game plan fell to bits and we reverted to the Crows of last year with short, chip kicks to flanks.

- Perrie was ********! Didn't do anything except for 15 minutes of the game and during those 15 minutes he was one of our biggest perpatrators of my last point.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

You're actually talking about the turning point of the whole game here WW.

Reilly kicks that goal, and we open up a buffer that gives us psychological impetus to win.

That was a standard bread and butter shot for an AFL footballer. I saw 20 to 30 of those kicked in other games for the week-end.

The fact that he does normally hit a target and is one of our higher skilled players only emphasizes the fact that he should have kicked it.

We lost that game yesterday rather than WCE won it. 3 set shots from Welsh, 1 from Johncock, that shot from Reilly - AFL players must kick the majority of those misses.

If we're happy to excuse misses like that all year, we're in a for a very long year.

That shot was no more difficult than Welsh's, Johncocks and Stevens, in fact had Welsh converted in the first and second qtrs with relatively easy shots the game may not have hung in the balance in the last qtr and could have opened a flood gate of opportunities.

For us to have worked so hard and played good footy for those first half goals to be missed can be frustrating for the players.

Putting in that running Reilly effort is a tad unfair as I think he did everything right but go thru.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Reilly's two errors in the third/fourth quarter.

Sorry must have missed them

 

[WaynesWorld19]

- Perrie was ********! Didn't do anything except for 15 minutes of the game and during those 15 minutes he was one of our biggest perpatrators of my last point.

Perrie really does ostrisize peoples views - I thought he was our only reliable forward after qtr time - granted not a star but was always a threat IMO.

The lack of a quick forward to swoop on the loose ground ball was obvious, sadly no-one on our list currently who could fill that roll other than Macca (who's req in the midfield)

 

[jo172]

The lack of a quick forward to swoop on the loose ground ball was obvious, sadly no-one on our list currently who could fill that roll other than Macca (who's req in the midfield)

I'd actually be tempted to leave him and Edwards changing in a FP with Goodwin and Thompson coming into the midfield.

My team Vs. Collingwood

FB: Basset Rutten Hart
HB: Doughty McGregor Johncock
C: Mattner Ricciutto Reilly
HF: Hentshel Perrie Goodwin
FF: Welsh Stevens Mcleod
1R: Hudson Thompson Edwards
INT: Shirley Biglands Clarke Skipworth

IN - Thompson, Goodwin, Biglands
OUT - Burton Bode Begley

 

[tinman]

As for Mattner as a tagger, that's even less realistic. He's been tried before with the result being that his opponent has been BOG and won the game for the opposition.

Even though he has received a fair bit of kudos for his game on Sunday, his direct opponent Kerr absolutely carved him in the 3rd quarter with 13 disposals!!

How can anyone who watched Sunday's game seriously put Mattner up as a tagging option? I think the guy offers something and if he improves his awareness he can become a good AFL player, but his game yesterday is very overrated on this board and he was murdered in the third quarter.

If Kerr can do that to him you can't seriously expect him to tag up a player like Judd? Especially when the opposition are dominating the ruck contests.

Asides from the goalkicking, which has already been mentioned as a concern -and hopefully can be fixed, the biggest concern for me yesterday was the stoppages. I haven't seen any stats but West Coast dominated the ruck contests and stoppages and got the ball moving towards their goals. Ricuttio plays hard in close more at the feet of the ruckmen and McLeod is at his best when our rucks are getting a hand to the ball, hitting it forward, and he can run onto it.

You are only allowed 4 players in the centre square contests. When opposition ruckmen get the ball moving towards their goal this will help negate Roo and McLeod, and we frequently have Clarke, Huddo and Shirley in the centre, non of whom win clearances or are real possession winners.

I don't wish to denigrate Shirley's job on Judd, but what were the combined stats of those three guys yesterday? I am not having a go at those guys, but just making the point that we relied way too heavily on too few in the centre square making it easier for the opposition to negate them - especially when they are winning the ruck contests. If Clarke is not getting his hand to the ball he is decoration on the footy field.........

Stinger was a defensive midfielder who was also able to win clearances and we missed him yesterday. No point crying over spilt milk (and I like Thompson and wish he was playing), but if Stinger was playing for us yesterday we may well have won. He did a great job on McLeod and won a fair share of footy himself. His job was made easier by the fact we were soundly beaten in the ruck.

 

[bigman]

Your kidding me if your referring to Reilleys shot for goal that hit the post.

Every player misses at that end to the left side, place to aim is to the right, Reilly appeared to aim for the right goal post believing the wind would bring it back, it didn't - how is that poor skill !!!!

Reilly regularly hit his targets for most of the day, he's probably one of the higher skilled players?

No WW,

i was referring to the miss handball opportunity he got from the Roo in the third quarter around the 50m mark. Then he compounded the mistake with another skill error by turning it over again. Too many of these errors continue in our game when under pressure. Although he was one of our better players this turnover cost us dearly as it should have been a laid down massaire goal. Mind you he should have kicked that goal in the last quarter too!!!!

 

[macca23]

No WW,

i was referring to the miss handball opportunity he got from the Roo in the third quarter around the 50m mark. Then he compounded the mistake with another skill error by turning it over again. Too many of these errors continue in our game when under pressure. Although he was one of our better players this turnover cost us dearly as it should have been a laid down massaire goal. Mind you he should have kicked that goal in the last quarter too!!!!

Aggggggggggggh!! I remember that!!

That chain of events was one of the low points of Reilly's game, along with the missed goal.

His game was pretty good apart from those very costly errors.

 

[Damp Squarie]

IN - Thompson, Goodwin, Biglands
OUT - Burton Bode Begley

Leave Bode alone & get rid of Skipworth

 

[WaynesWorld19]

No WW,

i was referring to the miss handball opportunity he got from the Roo in the third quarter around the 50m mark. Then he compounded the mistake with another skill error by turning it over again. Too many of these errors continue in our game when under pressure. Although he was one of our better players this turnover cost us dearly as it should have been a laid down massaire goal. Mind you he should have kicked that goal in the last quarter too!!!!

Agreed!
A lot of skill errors yesterday by a lot of players - hopefully first game pressure

Gee Roo was disappointing though - looked decidedly slow and fumbled like I haven't seen for a few years.

 

[bigman]

The inclusion of class acts in Thompson and Goodwin will help, particularly in the midfield. Both carry the ball well and are good users of the ball.

We do need another quality tall for the forward line - to keep up the pressure on the opposition and to help out like yesterday when things are not working. Biglands may be the answer in the short term, but this will add another dumb player and poor decision maker to the team.

Could Mc Leod go forward and play in a pocket. This is where he started, and he has the ability to kick the freakish goal and he has a football brain.

This could keep Stiffy downfield or in the guts where his pace can set up many opportunities.

 

[AJ_No.4]

Post of the day so far !

I don't know about The Count as a tagger - but our selection policy must be to play our best 22 - we just don't have the luxury of depth to go with a fringe hack who is a good spoiler.... Sure - if we were Brisbane or even the Paps - we would have enough good players in the 22 to afford playing a specialist tagger. Our side drops off at about #10....so IMO, 11 to 22 are vital selections - unlike a more accomplished side.
Mattner had 5 or so tackles yesterday and is in our best 22 IMO - he's the guy I would be turning into a tagger as his offensive side is more potent than Shirley's. Evidence of this was that Shirley showed once again yesterday that 35 to 40 metres is the limit of his kicking distance.

Good point, but what about Skipworth, he would be lucky to be able to do the same.

I personally think that in todays football, it is a liability. Both of them yesterday caused turnovers through their lack of kicking distance.

 

[Mad Dog]

NO!
He's been tried B4 and failed - it's his tackling that continually has his name raised as a tagger.

He's a naturally attacking player which we're starting to see more of, lets propogate that game not try and turn him into a tagger which he'll never be.

ok - but my prevailing point is......let's not play a one dimensional tagger in Shirley - let's instead teach a defensive game to our other midfielders because at least they have an offensive string to their bow.

 

[maccas_no1]

Leave Bode alone & get rid of Skipworth

Bode was worse than Skipworth.