Positives from Round 1 ?

[Mad Dog]

C'mon MD. Credit where it's due. Shirley was terrific yesterday by reducing a Brownlow Medallist to a mediocre game. If every other player did their job as well, we would have shat in.

And it's Skippy that really struggles to kick over jam jars, not Shirley.

As for Mattner as a tagger, that's even less realistic. He's been tried before with the result being that his opponent has been BOG and won the game for the opposition.

Even though he has received a fair bit of kudos for his game on Sunday, his direct opponent Kerr absolutely carved him in the 3rd quarter with 13 disposals!!

I don't know what the answer is Macca - but we will not improve as a club while players of the standard of Skipworth and Shirley continue to get a game. It's the old weakest link addage.....and as I said - given our steep drop off in talent as you go down the list - I dont think you can reward 5 disposals and 2 marks just because he is apparently the only midfielder in our squad who has a defensive side to his game. Last Sept, Oct, most were spewing that Shirley didn't get delisted - (we all know that retirements and contracts dictated who stayed and who went)......but now he is in our best 22.....

As for his job on Judd - lets not forget to factor in Judd's PS preparation into the equation....not exactly ideal - and not exactly at the peak of his powers.

 

[Mad Dog]

This is a bit out of left field and I don't know if it would work as he is usually tagged himself, but what if we put McLeod in a tagging role. He is a great tackler, and there is no question about him keeping up with the top players plus when the opportunity arises he is a naturally attacking player so he can still have a positive input into the game.

worth some thought - he might actually get taken to where the ball is

 

[AJ_No.4]

I'd actually be tempted to leave him and Edwards changing in a FP with Goodwin and Thompson coming into the midfield.

My team Vs. Collingwood

FB: Basset Rutten Hart
HB: Doughty McGregor Johncock
C: Mattner Ricciutto Reilly
HF: Hentshel Perrie Goodwin
FF: Welsh Stevens Mcleod
1R: Hudson Thompson Edwards
INT: Shirley Biglands Clarke Skipworth

IN - Thompson, Goodwin, Biglands
OUT - Burton Bode Begley

Why would you drop Burton????

Unless he is injured this is really insane.

 

[Vic Eagles Member]

You blokes aren't half bad, you're certainly not spoon material. Keep your heads up and you guys will trouble a lot of sides. Bad luck yesterday but best of luck for next week when you face those black and white pricks. Cheers.

 

[Mad Dog]

Perrie really does ostrisize peoples views - I thought he was our only reliable forward after qtr time - granted not a star but was always a threat IMO.

The lack of a quick forward to swoop on the loose ground ball was obvious, sadly no-one on our list currently who could fill that roll other than Macca (who's req in the midfield)

that's good in theory - and where a star midfielder should be - but he spent most of the day @ HF because he couldn't shake his tag in the midfield

 

[AJ_No.4]

Leave Bode alone & get rid of Skipworth

Well put................

 

[jtrain]

Oh no, not again.....Doughty is 26 years of age, hardly a 'younger guy'. If so, then Welsh, Burton, Perrie & Bode should be dubbed 'younger guys' as well.

I think I am in the minority here, although Mad Dog has expressed similar views on this player. Shirley held Judd to 12 possessions, but only picked up 5 himself - and didn't lay a single tackle. Stenglein on the other hand kept McLeod down to 11, but still had 14 himself. Shirley needs to work on his offensive side and position himself better so that he can make the most of being around a ball magnet such as Judd. I don't care what anyone says, Shirley is not in our best-22, he is not an AFL standard player and the sooner we develop Van Berlo into a midfield tagger, the better. Harsh call, I know.

I'm just of the belief that you pick your best-22, and then decide on the day who the run-with players are gonna be.

Ordinarily I would be the first to bag Shirley for any reason whatsoever but in this case, I think you have to give credit where credit is due.

For Shirley to keep Judd to 12 possessions was a fantastic effort, and I would take that everytime, irrespective of whether Shirley had 5,1 or 12 possessions. You should be able to have one midfielder perform a tagging job and in the case of Judd he is the perfect player to shut down.

For the positives:

Bassett, Hart and Stiffy were excellent in defence - our defence is pretty solid I dont think we will have too much to worry about there all year.

Mattner and Skippy and to a lesser extent Doughty played great games for your second tier type players. I wouldnt expect a lot more from those three guys for most of the year - if they continue to perform at that level and our so-called "quality players" perform up to the expected level - our midfield will do alright.

Burton busted his gut, but he needs to work on his decision making.

And, because I want to vent my spleen - here are the negatives:

Goalkicking. Atrocious would be a little kind in my view. Whether it is laziness, mental fragility or a lack of ability it was not up to scratch. Losing games because of bad kicking for goal is unforgivable for mine and the forwards let down their defence in a massive way yesterday.

Mark Stevens, Andrew McLeod and Roo all had stinkers. For the amount of money Macca gets paid, to put in that sort of gutless weak effort made my blood boil yesterday. He didnt look interested, fumbled and basically looked like he thought he just had to rock up to get his pay cheque. Since he signed up to his last contract I reckon he has been a shadow of the player he once was.

If anyone thinks I am being too harsh on Macca let me know - I'd be interested to hear their thoughts.

Stevens had an off day, so I'll forgive him this week and Roo certainly looked like he was having more of a crack but just couldnt get into the game.

Reilly looked okay but made a couple of crucial skill errors - a dropped mark in the third and the missed goal in the last. He is a good player and those mistakes may bring him back to earth a little - which should be a good thing going forward.

Young players making mistakes is fine, so called champions not putting in is not.

Looking forward to seeing Goodwin in the team next week. Adios Begley.

 

[maccas_no1]

Why would you drop Burton????

Unless he is injured this is really insane.

Um he is injured.

 

[jo172]

Why would you drop Burton????

Unless he is injured this is really insane.

He is injured!

 

[crowie]

If anyone thinks I am being too harsh on Macca let me know - I'd be interested to hear their thoughts.

I called for him to be traded last year but I'm willing to give him another shot. Give him another 4-5 games then we can bring the knives out.

He needs to sort out his sh..

or take a very large pay cut.

 

[Stiffy_18]

All the positives have been mentioned.

As far as addressing one of the weaknesses, I know there are a lot of us who are ********ed off with this bloke but our crumbing in the forward line MUST improve. I think we have a good crumber in Ladhams and I think we are so desperate that he should be considered. Surely he would be better than Skipworth in this role

 

[Bockchoy67]

All the positives have been mentioned.

As far as addressing one of the weaknesses, I know there are a lot of us who are ********ed off with this bloke but our crumbing in the forward line MUST improve. I think we have a good crumber in Ladhams and I think we are so desperate that he should be considered. Surely he would be better than Skipworth in this role

Yes but we always say this yet Ladhams fails to impress and inevitably gets sent back into the SANFL. He NEEDS to impress and he needs to impress consistently, otherwise his future is nothing but North Adelaide.

Admittedly his pre-season was impressive and his morale has improved, and so he deserves a go.

I agree that our forward line demands a crumber and Ladhams is technically the only one we have. Hopefully a crumber is high on Fantasia's list come the end of the year.

This week's ins and outs should be interesting.

 

[Stiffy_18]

I don't think NC will actually select Ladhams this week but I thought I would throw up the suggestion and see what the general opinion of the board is.

To me he is the best crumber we have and based PURELY on this I would play him. Has the talent I just hope he has improved his FIGJAM attitude or otherwise he will be telling us how good he was

 

[crowie]

All the positives have been mentioned.

As far as addressing one of the weaknesses, I know there are a lot of us who are ********ed off with this bloke but our crumbing in the forward line MUST improve. I think we have a good crumber in Ladhams and I think we are so desperate that he should be considered. Surely he would be better than Skipworth in this role

Does this make A Jarman a genius?

 

[relapse]

Wayne's-World"Hungup on age again?
Who said Doughty is developing or finding his feet? - fact is he's playing good footy and is in the team on merit!, not as a future developing player."

Okay lets put it this way, lets look at the Power as the top of the tree AFL wise, if we offered them Doughty as a trade and they could give us any player do you think they would ??? My bet is no and while yes he is playing reasonable football he is only in our side on the basis that we have no-one else (similar with Shirley) and the fact that he wouldnt be even be given a second glance in my opinion by the power shows his value as a player in the fact that he is most probably not as good as the 42 players on the power's list.

Wayne's-World"Agreed - short term solution but not the answer - would prefer to delope Van Berlo in this role to educate and give him experience - has played mostly as a defender so has a defensive side to his game as well as offensive."

Well this is my point totally about using players that are only there because we have noone else, we should be using this time to develop the other players on our list.

Wayne's-World"Your selections again are based on age - crap!
You either have the talent and capability or not, if not the fact your 18-20 doesn't change that fact. However their is a mental maturation process that sees some players playing their best footy as mature players (Josh Mahoney) which although they had the talent was bnot forthcoming at a younger age."

You make the point of Mahoney and yes it is an occurance but it also usually has something to do with a change of team and their ability to be a better fit into a different team structure, Peter Caven was another example but again it was when he changed teams.

Age has everything to do with it as does giving our younger players field time and opportunity to get their feet wet. If you think Adelaide can gamble their future on playing those players (bode, perrie, ladhams and co) consistantly and if you cant see the merit in giving our younger players experience instead of playing those players that consistantly show they cant cut the mustard then we will agree to disagree on that. The only way our younger players will get better is to be exposed to AFL football, let me put it this way say they rate bode as a 6/10 player and van berlo as a 4/10 short term vision would say play bode, but the truth is that bode in three years will still be a 6/10 and hopefully given time and afl experience van berlo could develop into a 8/10, but this wont happen if they keep playing players over youngsters to try and milk an extra couple of wins. If age and their ability to develop arent related then why is it quite rare to see players in their 20s who are cut from an AFL side being picked up by other clubs????????

Wayne's-World"WE have IMO a lot of what most clubs would call depth players, very important to any successful team to have around their star players and cover for injuries during a long season. What we have lost is the absolute core talent (star quality) that we have lost in recent seasons - hopefully some astute recruiting will change that, but lets not expect our depth players to be more than what they are."

I agree with your point to a degree and the point I was making was that we have far too many of those players in our team. My point is what you were saying that you cant make stars from them so there shouldnt be any reason why some of those players shouldnt make room for our developing young talent. You cant make build a successful side around a large group of those "depth" players as you call them which is why I have said that we have to get rid of some of them and give the spots to players who over time who have some hope of being the part of the future for the club.


Wayne's-World"Couldnever agree with the St Kilda model - absolute failure to perhaps build a successful team, participates in the 97 Grand Final and then spends the next 6 years on the bottom - mot a good business model.
However Essendon have showed how to do it whilst remaining competitive and you have to also admire Geelong who never dropped to St Kildas standard and arguably is on a similar level now."

I am not even talking about st kilda from 97 they made some poor board level decision in relation to coaching positions etc and that side that is out on the field now not many are there from before 2000, but the point I was trying to make was that Riewoldt, Dal Santo, X Clarke, Koschitzke etc have all come into their own because St Kilda decided that the future relied on the development of these players and put them into the side. Adelaide are notorious for recruiting guys and having them sit on the list never getting a game and then expecting them to come in at the middle of the season at 21-22 years of age and set the world on fire having never played AFL before. I am just making a point that we cant gamble our long term future playing guys that we are playing solely because it could get us a couple of extra wins. We have to do what St Kilda did and identify what we want for the future and then focus towards getting those players that will figure in that future enough expose and experience to maximise their development. Yes Kevin Sheedy is the master of bringing in one or two new players each year and keeping his side competitive and that is what I think Williams is now trying to do with some success as well, but most others have struggled trying to do this. So the point wasnt about how St Kilda have gone for the last eight years just moreso how they have gone since (2002) in which they finished low, but in the process given valuable game time and exposure to the players that they identified as being the future on the club.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

ok - but my prevailing point is......let's not play a one dimensional tagger in Shirley - let's instead teach a defensive game to our other midfielders because at least they have an offensive string to their bow.

Totally agree
Someone who perhaps is taught the game via tagging like a Van Berlo or a player who has a strong offesnsive aspect to their game.

This was my problem with Stinger, it was time for him to assume a new role in our defence, something either he or the coach was not prepared to do.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

that's good in theory - and where a star midfielder should be - but he spent most of the day @ HF because he couldn't shake his tag in the midfield

My theory there is Macleod has to get back to being the ball hunter not the ball receiver - much more difficult to tag a hunter.

 

[jc67]

I called for him to be traded last year but I'm willing to give him another shot. Give him another 4-5 games then we can bring the knives out.

He needs to sort out his sh..

or take a very large pay cut.

I also called for a trade with him.
BUT he's on the team so he's on the bloody team! GET IT???

Also the knives only come out after the season is over
Until then just defend him, it' s much more fun anyway.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I don't think NC will actually select Ladhams this week but I thought I would throw up the suggestion and see what the general opinion of the board is.

To me he is the best crumber we have and based PURELY on this I would play him. Has the talent I just hope he has improved his FIGJAM attitude or otherwise he will be telling us how good he was

The issue with Ladhams apparently is not his attitude but non preparedness to work hard when he doesn;t have the ball like chasing, tackling, you know the 1% things

When he has the ball in his hands no issue - when he doesn't thats the major issue at hand.

 

[Stiffy_18]

The issue with Ladhams apparently is not his attitude but non preparedness to work hard when he doesn;t have the ball like chasing, tackling, you know the 1% things

When he has the ball in his hands no issue - when he doesn't thats the major issue at hand.

No doubt and one of the main reasons NC is not picking him is because his defensive pressure especially playing a a forward is not up to it.

I don't know what other solution we have for a crumber. Its painful watching ball hit the ground and there is no one there for the crumbs. This is Ladhams' bread and butter.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Wayne's-World"Hungup on age again?
Who said Doughty is developing or finding his feet? - fact is he's playing good footy and is in the team on merit!, not as a future developing player."

Okay lets put it this way, lets look at the Power as the top of the tree AFL wise, if we offered them Doughty as a trade and they could give us any player do you think they would ??? My bet is no and while yes he is playing reasonable football he is only in our side on the basis that we have no-one else (similar with Shirley) and the fact that he wouldnt be even be given a second glance in my opinion by the power shows his value as a player in the fact that he is most probably not as good as the 42 players on the power's list.

I disagree - Think Doughty is playing fine footy and based on current form I would take him over Cassissi, Poulton, Montgomery, Mahoney, Cochrane, and Kingsley. He's a ball carrier, has sure hands, great disposal but is a depth player admittedly - he is however not getting a game by default.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Wayne's-World"WE have IMO a lot of what most clubs would call depth players, very important to any successful team to have around their star players and cover for injuries during a long season. What we have lost is the absolute core talent (star quality) that we have lost in recent seasons - hopefully some astute recruiting will change that, but lets not expect our depth players to be more than what they are."

I agree with your point to a degree and the point I was making was that we have far too many of those players in our team. My point is what you were saying that you cant make stars from them so there shouldnt be any reason why some of those players shouldnt make room for our developing young talent. You cant make build a successful side around a large group of those "depth" players as you call them which is why I have said that we have to get rid of some of them and give the spots to players who over time who have some hope of being the part of the future for the club.

Lets agree on that, the question then becomes how quickly can you get them into the team and get games under their belt.

Iam a great believer A)that its better to bring young players into a competitive side and B) the young players have to earn their positions not be given AFL games.

In the first case there is a limit on how many new players you can blood at the same time and remain competitive and that is determined by the second point - are they up to it.

ATM Watts, Meeson and Van Berlo do not deserve games over the players selected on Sunday - yes you could put a strong case for VB over Skippy, but you have to be very very careful of maintaining a culture of reward for performance which is evenly applied to all - no problems VB will get his turn but does he get a game because he's young and has showed some promise.

Failure to reward performance can create a cancer in a club.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Lets agree on that, the question then becomes how quickly can you get them into the team and get games under their belt.

Iam a great believer A)that its better to bring young players into a competitive side and B) the young players have to earn their positions not be given AFL games.

In the first case there is a limit on how many new players you can blood at the same time and remain competitive and that is determined by the second point - are they up to it.

ATM Watts, Meeson and Van Berlo do not deserve games over the players selected on Sunday - yes you could put a strong case for VB over Skippy, but you have to be very very careful of maintaining a culture of reward for performance which is evenly applied to all - no problems VB will get his turn but does he get a game because he's young and has showed some promise.

Failure to reward performance can create a cancer in a club.

Quality post

 

[johnnypanther]

Failure to reward performance can create a cancer in a club.

we already have a cancer in the club:
- we have rewarded non-performance

and we're still trying to build a team around a mediocre group of 3rd tiers

(By the way i dont disagree with your arguments, i'm just frustrated that we have got into the position where for another year we are perhaps "forced" into persisting with mediocrity at the expense of giving youngsters some experience)

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I am not even talking about st kilda from 97 they made some poor board level decision in relation to coaching positions etc and that side that is out on the field now not many are there from before 2000, but the point I was trying to make was that Riewoldt, Dal Santo, X Clarke, Koschitzke etc have all come into their own because St Kilda decided that the future relied on the development of these players and put them into the side. Adelaide are notorious for recruiting guys and having them sit on the list never getting a game and then expecting them to come in at the middle of the season at 21-22 years of age and set the world on fire having never played AFL before. I am just making a point that we cant gamble our long term future playing guys that we are playing solely because it could get us a couple of extra wins. We have to do what St Kilda did and identify what we want for the future and then focus towards getting those players that will figure in that future enough expose and experience to maximise their development. Yes Kevin Sheedy is the master of bringing in one or two new players each year and keeping his side competitive and that is what I think Williams is now trying to do with some success as well, but most others have struggled trying to do this. So the point wasnt about how St Kilda have gone for the last eight years just moreso how they have gone since (2002) in which they finished low, but in the process given valuable game time and exposure to the players that they identified as being the future on the club.

St Kilda were forced to play those players but also because they were bottom so many years there are top draft players who are currently not getting a go that could be playing with other AFL clubs (Clarke boys..)
IMHO I still prefer the model of serving an apprenticeship in the minor leagues B4 getting an AFL game:

1. It allows for proper body & skill development
2. It allows the "average" recruit the opportunity to make the proper transition from junior footy to the mens game and gain confidence.
3. It is the accepted model in most major sports around the world (baseball, NFL...)