Mega Thread Potential future father-son selections

[Robin Hood]

I agree 14 is young but for sportsmen the balance between being to young and the time wasted is a difficult subject. In Athens now we Aussie swimmers that have won gold but how early in did they start training to be capable of that sort of effort. Some would have been younger than Adam when they started 4-5 hrs of training a day. If they didn't start that young then its time that's wasted because somebody else, somewhere else is training, doing those hours and they never catch up.
Spotting talent early is key to Olympic gold
What age is too early to spot talent or to spot future players in our game? One might say by being mentioned in the paper it places pressure on young Adam but equally one could argue that it might give him a target that is more real more achievable because other's now see him as a real chance to be a player. It might challenge him to strive and make it instead of drifting and wasting his chance.
I've said before that Geelong should endeavor to maximize its F/S pool. If David Clarke had been trained from an early age to kick the ball properly he would still be at Geelong. He might never have been a GAJ but if ingrained early the correct technique would have been his passport to being a solid player. The only kids that one can say for certain Geelong will be a chance to get is F/S so why not put effort into these kids while they are young to maximize their pickability. Young Adam should have personal coaching- weight training; fitness, football skills and media/communication would be area's I would have him train in if he was my boy.
Talent alone is not enough, one must make the most of it.

Yeh but how old do you want to start teaching them perfect styles etc? 2? 4? 6? He is 14 years old and will go to the Falcons for the U16s I presume. Im sure he will be adequately taught - its not like he is going to soley rely on Winchelsea for ever. And we cant afford staff to "teach" every single possible father-son how to be perfect - alot of it is natural. The club cant afford to coach every possible father son in Australia.

David Clarke would have never been a good kick. Leave Adam alone. Let him make his own way through the program like the other kids - if we keep talking this kids up we will get more Nathan Abletts.

Adam is 181cms and 80kgs so still has a fair way to go in height. As for his weight 80kgs is a fair weight for GDFL U18s. GDFL U18 is a poor level of football and not to knock the kid but 80kgs should be enough to hold down key position in GDFL U18s. Mackie and Lonergan got here weighing just over 80kgs and are 192-5cms tall. He may well just be a early developer - this kid has proved nothing, lets leave him alone and let his just play.

I dont care that he is 14 and playing the u18s, its all about body size in junior football.

 

[Unwritten_Law]

I see the point and don't disagree but...

Young Adam should have personal coaching- weight training; fitness, football skills and media/communication would be area's I would have him train in if he was my boy.

That is intense for a 14yo. Incorporating all of that would take the fun away from playing football. I guess it depends on the individual and how focussed they are but it would make playing football a chore and make it easy for a kid to lose interest and take up basketball or some other sport instead.

 

[Robin Hood]

I see the point and don't disagree but...



That is intense for a 14yo. Incorporating all of that would take the fun away from playing football. I guess it depends on the individual and how focussed they are but it would make playing football a chore and make it easy for a kid to lose interest and take up basketball or some other sport instead.

Being 14 is about having fun with friends kicking the footy. Its ridiculous to suggest that he should be on a strict football program. I agree, we will lose him if we push him.

 

[Turbocat]

Yeh but how old do you want to start teaching them perfect styles etc? 2? 4? 6? He is 14 years old and will go to the Falcons for the U16s I presume. Im sure he will be adequately taught - its not like he is going to soley rely on Winchelsea for ever. And we cant afford staff to "teach" every single possible father-son how to be perfect - alot of it is natural. The club cant afford to coach every possible father son in Australia.

David Clarke would have never been a good kick. Leave Adam alone. Let him make his own way through the program like the other kids - if we keep talking this kids up we will get more Nathan Abletts.

Adam is 181cms and 80kgs so still has a fair way to go in height. As for his weight 80kgs is a fair weight for GDFL U18s. GDFL U18 is a poor level of football and not to knock the kid but 80kgs should be enough to hold down key position in GDFL U18s. Mackie and Lonergan got here weighing just over 80kgs and are 192-5cms tall. He may well just be a early developer - this kid has proved nothing, lets leave him alone and let his just play.

I dont care that he is 14 and playing the u18s, its all about body size in junior football.

Totally disagree Sherwood man.
2 or 4 , good one. Lots of cultures actually start teaching skills early.Lots of sports too. Andree Agassi started hitting a tennis ball at 3 but Id think around 10 /12 would give a judgement commitee a good chance picking the right kids to go in the prog.
Early education is not something that has to drive people away.We put kids in school at 5 or 6, why because education is about building a foundation and building upon it. Would you expect kids to run around do nothing and then start Uni with no formal education and guidance and just rely on the childs own natural ability to learn.We give every child the chance to be all he can be.Plenty of kids go onto be doctors or whatever.Plenty of kids drop out but all had the chance to show what they could do and get a feel for what they are naturally good at.
In football its a little different.The old days when zones were around clubs developed their zones and players in that zone benifited.These days with draft, the only players one can be sure that you might get a return from development effort and money is F/S.
We are in the era of clubs spending 25-35Million a year.Did you see Pagan go thru the Pies new setup.It wont be long and the Cats will have to have something around that level or they wont be competitive.Geelong has a lot of natural DISadvatages in the modern era.In the old days our"country" feel appealed to ruual players now it makes us look a bit hickish.Players are more and more concentrating on off field earnings and for that you would prefer to play at a Maxi Club.Geelong's one big advantage is once you are here , you do tend to stay here, therefore lots of F/S chances.How many F/S?at the most Id think you would have 20 or 30 in a program.At the most this would cost 250,000-500,000 depending what we include, schoolorships etc.
Adam might never be good enough to play football at AFL level but getting in early you maximize his chance and Geelongs chance because he will most likely come to Geelong.

 

[Robin Hood]

Totally disagree Sherwood man.
2 or 4 , good one. Lots of cultures actually start teaching skills early.Lots of sports too. Andree Agassi started hitting a tennis ball at 3 but Id think around 10 /12 would give a judgement commitee a good chance picking the right kids to go in the prog.
Early education is not something that has to drive people away.We put kids in school at 5 or 6, why because education is about building a foundation and building upon it. Would you expect kids to run around do nothing and then start Uni with no formal education and guidance and just rely on the childs own natural ability to learn.We give every child the chance to be all he can be.Plenty of kids go onto be doctors or whatever.Plenty of kids drop out but all had the chance to show what they could do and get a feel for what they are naturally good at.
In football its a little different.The old days when zones were around clubs developed their zones and players in that zone benifited.These days with draft, the only players one can be sure that you might get a return from development effort and money is F/S.
We are in the era of clubs spending 25-35Million a year.Did you see Pagan go thru the Pies new setup.It wont be long and the Cats will have to have something around that level or they wont be competitive.Geelong has a lot of natural DISadvatages in the modern era.In the old days our"country" feel appealed to ruual players now it makes us look a bit hickish.Players are more and more concentrating on off field earnings and for that you would prefer to play at a Maxi Club.Geelong's one big advantage is once you are here , you do tend to stay here, therefore lots of F/S chances.How many F/S?at the most Id think you would have 20 or 30 in a program.At the most this would cost 250,000-500,000 depending what we include, schoolorships etc.
Adam might never be good enough to play football at AFL level but getting in early you maximize his chance and Geelongs chance because he will most likely come to Geelong.

I understand what your trying to say but Andre Agassi never had a childhood. Nick Boleteri's camp which Agassi spent his child hood takes thousands of kids and most get nowhere. Most pack it in cos they are sick of Tennis. We want players to enjoy their footy. Passion for the game is more important than a slightly better player that has lost his passion.

I don't think that Ablett, Scarlett etc have come through to badly. I dont think the current system made them less of players. Would Chappy's passion gone had he been a father son (i know he wasnt) been eroded by football becoming labourious. Would Gary Ablett at 14 years old had the maturity to decide where he wanted to play his football - noting he barracked for St Kilda at that age. Clubs don't own father-son choices, ultimately its up to the player to want to go to the club - should a 14 year old be stuck into making a decision about his club of choice for something which is 4 years away before they would ever get a game.

20 to 30 players in a program? Most clubs struggle to pick one father son every 3 to 4 years - there would be alot of dead wood in that group. And is James Bartel any less deserving of being given the best opportunity to be a footballer than Gary Ablett? The answer is no - the system you are suggesting, while it may have some merits, is very expensive for a little bit of result. Would Levi Turner be playing at Geelong under this system instead of James Bartel? No.

I differ from you in that you think its the clubs right to get the most out of a 14 year old where I believe its up to kids to enjoy their child hood and take footy a bit serious later on - if they want. Its there choice - not everyone wants to play afl and not everyone wants to play for their father's club. Let the kids be - the current system is fine and this new idea only increases costs by 250k-500k a year for a father son that may be 5% better than he would have been. It would be pointless. Say it got us an extra 3rd round pick every 3 years, its not worth 1.5 million.

 

[jim boy]

I'm with Turbocat on this one. Identifying and guiding players for whom we can say are off limits to other teams seems sensible, David Clarke being the prime example. Had he been given proper kicking instruction from an early age, he may well be starring now for us. Not talking about spending lots of money or being intensive, simply have a club rep watch him from time to time and take him aside to get the bad habits ironed out. And it shouldn't be that expensive, while you can't say if a kid will be a star at the age of ten, you tell usually tell if they are going to be a dud, no footy brain, no co-ordination. Of course psychologically they have to be handled correctly as well. If they don't enjoy this additional assistance, they will either a) give the game away or b) tell the club to get stuffed and join another club. But I honestly most that kids would kill for the chance to get this additional help in order to emulate their dads.

 

[Robin Hood]

I'm with Turbocat on this one. Identifying and guiding players for whom we can say are off limits to other teams seems sensible, David Clarke being the prime example. Had he been given proper kicking instruction from an early age, he may well be starring now for us. Not talking about spending lots of money or being intensive, simply have a club rep watch him from time to time and take him aside to get the bad habits ironed out. And it shouldn't be that expensive, while you can't say if a kid will be a star at the age of ten, you tell usually tell if they are going to be a dud, no footy brain, no co-ordination. Of course psychologically they have to be handled correctly as well. If they don't enjoy this additional assistance, they will either a) give the game away or b) tell the club to get stuffed and join another club. But I honestly most that kids would kill for the chance to get this additional help in order to emulate their dads.

Most junior clubs help with kicking techniques now, I know alot of the clubs film the kids kicking the ball and learn from that. And help them in this respect. You have to give some of David Clarke's kick down to naturally being a crap kick, not everyone has the potential to be silky.

 

[Turbocat]

I understand what your trying to say but Andre Agassi never had a childhood. Nick Boleteri's camp which Agassi spent his child hood takes thousands of kids and most get nowhere. Most pack it in cos they are sick of Tennis. We want players to enjoy their footy. Passion for the game is more important than a slightly better player that has lost his passion.

I don't think that Ablett, Scarlett etc have come through to badly. I dont think the current system made them less of players. Would Chappy's passion gone had he been a father son (i know he wasnt) been eroded by football becoming labourious. Would Gary Ablett at 14 years old had the maturity to decide where he wanted to play his football - noting he barracked for St Kilda at that age. Clubs don't own father-son choices, ultimately its up to the player to want to go to the club - should a 14 year old be stuck into making a decision about his club of choice for something which is 4 years away before they would ever get a game.

20 to 30 players in a program? Most clubs struggle to pick one father son every 3 to 4 years - there would be alot of dead wood in that group. And is James Bartel any less deserving of being given the best opportunity to be a footballer than Gary Ablett? The answer is no - the system you are suggesting, while it may have some merits, is very expensive for a little bit of result. Would Levi Turner be playing at Geelong under this system instead of James Bartel? No.

I differ from you in that you think its the clubs right to get the most out of a 14 year old where I believe its up to kids to enjoy their child hood and take footy a bit serious later on - if they want. Its there choice - not everyone wants to play afl and not everyone wants to play for their father's club. Let the kids be - the current system is fine and this new idea only increases costs by 250k-500k a year for a father son that may be 5% better than he would have been. It would be pointless. Say it got us an extra 3rd round pick every 3 years, its not worth 1.5 million.

Robin , I do agree that I wouldn’t want to have camp system like Nick whatever and Hooper/Cash up QLD.I only mentioned Agassi because you threw in "2 or 4". What I am suggesting is more an add on to the normal education that all kids get a chance to get. Some kids show talent with a Piano and get lessons, some show talent maths and skip grades. The kids I’m talking about would show aptitude in sport and we channel it into footy. I’ve heard that some private schools actively chase talented kids whith promises of Schoolorships etc.It would be something of this sort.
The basis of this thought was that Geelong in this new era struggles to match the likes of Collingwood and Adelaide and we need to make the most of our resourse’s. The other thought was that the F/S is the only kids that have any sort of tie to a club, guarantee no, but because there is no such thing as zones it’s the closest thing to trying to increase the quality of our choices’s
My perfect system would blend draft and zone, clubs like Geelong or Adelaide or West Coast or Brisbane or whoever should be able to have a zone that has a link to the club. They would develop it, put effort into it and get one pick a year from the zone.Yes the Eagles and the Crows would get the best kid from there state but to me thats the way it should be, they would develop many more kids kids than the one they get to take. Too often a kid gets pushed to the others side of the country, I’m not wrapped in it, especially the local champions that should grow up and preferably go to their linked club The really talented kids, like Judd, are the one’s who’s name keep getting brought up as “coming home”, will always be in demand and be linked to deals etc. It’s is a distasteful part of football, look at the way Port keeps going on about Nick Stevens and all he wanted was to go home. Judd should have been at a Vic club from day one , just like Cooney should be in SA and Riewoldt should be in Brisbane(ouch) .The kids that are not the zenith of talent usually are quite willing to go anywhere to get on a list.

I know what your saying about burning kids out ,care is needed, but I believe kids usually want to do what they are good at and I would be just trying ensure they are the best they can be.

 

[Turbocat]

Good to see another F/S progressing


Geelong five wear the Big V

Tuesday, August 9
GEELONG ADVERTISER

VICTORIA Country has finished third in the under-15 Australian school sport football championship in Canberra.
Five of the boys were from the Geelong region and represented Vic Country against Queensland, NSW and WA.
The Geelong players were Adam Donohue (Grovedale Secondary College), Jacob Storer (Newcomb Secondary College), Patrick Dangerfield (Oberon High School), Blake Hutchison (North Geelong Secondary College) and Jordan Jones (absent, Catholic Regional College).
The championship was won by VIC Metro with West Australia runners up.

 

[worthogs]

You think 14 is bad to start getting obsessive.Some of us started following a future F-S with in days of his birth.

Only about another 13-14 years until the return of #31 to its rightful name.

Son of Bargearse!!!, worth keeping the membership up just to see that

 

[GeeCat]

The pic that came with the article:

Adam is the boy on the far left, but pardon me for drifting immediately to the boy on the far right. That's some fair muscle for an U-15 fella.

 

[jim boy]

but pardon me for drifting immediately to the boy on the far right. That's some fair muscle for an U-15 fella.

That's why it would be so good to get to the kids early, put them on an extensive course of steroids from an early age and watch them develop into superhulks before they get anywhere near an AFL club and the drug testing that goes on.

 

[cats2rise]

Ive heard of Hawkins, but could i have some info on the others metioned in the article for fatehr son?

 

[GeeCat]

Ive heard of Hawkins, but could i have some info on the others metioned in the article for fatehr son?

2005: Che Turner
2006: Tom Hawkins, Jacob Neal, Tom Couch, Toby Bairstow?
2007: Adam Donohue

Che Turner:Wing/Midfield. Slighty built, and possibly a late bloomer. Has the general skills, but questionable as to whether or not he'll make the grade.

Jacob Neal: Wing/midfielder. Has been All-Australian at younger levels, and looks to be a legit prospect.

Tom Couch:Midfielder. Supposedly (regurgitating what I've only heard) has nice skills, but in a tough draft year lacks the outstanding qualities to make him a certainty.

Toby Bairstow:Midfield/Half forward. Currently playing seniors in the WA footy circles (South Bunbury if I remember correctly).

Adam Donohue:Forward. Already a fairly handy size, allows him to play KPP at junior levels. Might not cut it as a KPP at AFL level, so we're likely looking at a forward flanker with goal sense.

 

[cats2rise]

Che Turner:Wing/Midfield. Slighty built, and possibly a late bloomer. Has the general skills, but questionable as to whether or not he'll make the grade.

Jacob Neal: Wing/midfielder. Has been All-Australian at younger levels, and looks to be a legit prospect.

Tom Couch:Midfielder. Supposedly (regurgitating what I've only heard) has nice skills, but in a tough draft year lacks the outstanding qualities to make him a certainty.

Toby Bairstow:Midfield/Half forward. Currently playing seniors in the WA footy circles (South Bunbury if I remember correctly).

Adam Donohue:Forward. Already a fairly handy size, allows him to play KPP at junior levels. Might not cut it as a KPP at AFL level, so we're likely looking at a forward flanker with goal sense.

Thanks a heap, looks like a few pick ups possibly!

 

[Partridge]

Most junior clubs help with kicking techniques now, I know alot of the clubs film the kids kicking the ball and learn from that. And help them in this respect. You have to give some of David Clarke's kick down to naturally being a crap kick, not everyone has the potential to be silky.

I think the coaching part is a little overstated. Some players have it and some don't. In David Clarke's case he definitely doesn't. All the coaching in the world won't remove the fact he's an athlete attempting to play football.

Also, a mass of father/son selections doesn't guarantee anything - for Matthew Scarlett and Gary Ablett, we've also had Marc Woolnough and David Clarke. Richmond fans would still shudder at the name David Bourke.

 

[Copernicus]

What's the story with Tom Hawkins? I've been hearing his name pop up a lot but don't anything about how much of a prospect he actually is. Anyone had a look at him or know much about how he's going right now?

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

That's why it would be so good to get to the kids early, put them on an extensive course of steroids from an early age and watch them develop into superhulks before they get anywhere near an AFL club and the drug testing that goes on.

...thus rendering them sterile, and ending the bloodline with them. let's hope that there is no "son of jakovich"

 

[Turbocat]

I think the coaching part is a little overstated. Some players have it and some don't. In David Clarke's case he definitely doesn't. All the coaching in the world won't remove the fact he's an athlete attempting to play football.

Also, a mass of father/son selections doesn't guarantee anything - for Matthew Scarlett and Gary Ablett, we've also had Marc Woolnough and David Clarke. Richmond fans would still shudder at the name David Bourke.

Parto , There are no guarentees true, just like in normal drafting in fact. Id say the odds of third round picks making it would reasonably long( guess 5/10-1)so If you happen to have a player that you may pick exclusively for a third round pick, no matter his standing, is quite a bonus, not as good as Priority but good all the same.

Luck always play a part , Marc W was awefully unlucky, he was a very good young play but injuries ripped his ability away. Clarke , just Spriggs was picked in era that gave more credit to stamina than skill but he stlll played a lot of games. Athlete, yes just like an enormous amount players getting picked today are athletes. He focused on downhill skiing when he was younger and was very good at it apparently but chose footy. I stand by my opinion, almost all players with a sembalnce of athletic aptitude could be better if they were tutored in the skills at a younger age.

If this approach didnt work, then why do countrys like China setup schools with 5-6 year olds chasing Gold medals. Would I want this excact system, No.
All Im sugesting is to nurture these potental kids,to maximize their talent, just like a gardener will support early growth with strapping and a stick in the ground to ensure the growth is as straight as possible.

 

[Fall Out Boy]

What's the story with Tom Hawkins? I've been hearing his name pop up a lot but don't anything about how much of a prospect he actually is. Anyone had a look at him or know much about how he's going right now?

I've seen plenty of him and the kid is the real deal.

Huge, quick with a leap like his dads. Dominates APS footy despite being double and triple teamed on a weekly basis.

Will be a CHF/FF at AFL level, but lately has been rucking for MGS.

 

[thehoff]

Parto , There are no guarentees true, just like in normal drafting in fact. Id say the odds of third round picks making it would reasonably long( guess 5/10-1)so If you happen to have a player that you may pick exclusively for a third round pick, no matter his standing, is quite a bonus, not as good as Priority but good all the same.
Luck always play a part , Marc W was awefully unlucky, he was a very good young play but injuries ripped his ability away. Clarke , just Spriggs was picked in era that move credit to stamina than skill but he stlll played a lot of games.Athlete, yes just like an enormous amount players getting picked today are athletes.He focused on downhill skiing when younger and was very good at it but I stand by my opinion, almost players with a sembalnce of athletic aptitude could be better if they were tutored in the skills at a younger age.
If this approach didnt work, then why do countrys like China setup schools with 5-6 year olds chasing Gold medals. Would I want this excact system, No.
All Im sugesting is to nurture these potental kids,to maximize their talent, just like a gardener will support early growth with strapping and a stick in the ground to ensure the growth is as straight as possible.

Did anyone understand this post?

 

[jmain14]

Did anyone understand this post?

not me. straight over my head.

 

[Hulk_Hawkins]

Did anyone understand this post?

As clear as the SS mud will be on Saturday

 

[Turbocat]

Did anyone understand this post?

I dont quite know what to say to that.Am I at risk of muddying the waters further trying to explain myself.
Simply some people think future F/S's should be left to naturally develop, I'd rather guide their development.

 

[GeeCat]

What's the story with Tom Hawkins? I've been hearing his name pop up a lot but don't anything about how much of a prospect he actually is. Anyone had a look at him or know much about how he's going right now?

Should be the last time I'll have to post this, seeing as the season has finished.

Preseason

First XVIII Training Camp – Adelaide 2005

Sunday 10 April, 2.00pm

MGS 18.5 (113) defeated Alfred College 8.10 (58)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 3
Best: NA
Report: “With the likes of Tom Hawkins…rotating through the forward line, most opposition sides will have real trouble containing these players.”

Wednesday 13 April, 1.00pm

MGS 14.7 (91) lost to St. Peters College 13.15 (93)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 5
Best: NA
Report: “Tom Hawkins was also outstanding at CHF. He was simply too big and smart for the opposition, who, having done their homework, double teamed him all match”

Saturday 30 April

MGS 11.15 (81) def Scotch College 12.7 (79)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 5
Best: Tom Hawkins (1)
Report: “Tom Hawkins was dangerous up forward…”

Season

Round 1 (Bye - Practice)

MGS 10.6 (66) def Assumption College 7.9 (51)

Goals: Tom Hawkins: 4
Best: NA
Report: “As we turned towards our respective change rooms to prepare our charges, and not having previously in our discussion mentioned Tom Hawkins, Ray said quietly, “and where do you play young Hawkins? Young Tom Hawkins plays up forward, and he kicked 4 goals.”

Round 2

MGS 18.11 (119) def Brighton Grammar 14.10 (94)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 3
Best: Tom Hawkins (1)
Report: “Tom Hawkins, double and even triple teamed at times, was the focus at centre half forward, and did well.”

Round 3

MGS 24.10 (154) def Carey 5.9 (39)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 3
Best: None
Report: “Up forward there were options everywhere, with Bryan Vance and Tom Hawkins kicking eight goals between them”

Round 4

MGS 9.6 (60) def by Xavier College 10.11 (71)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 3
Best: None
Report: None

Round 5

MGS 13.17 (95) def Geelong College 9.7 (61)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 1
Best: None
Report: None

Round 6

MGS def Wesley

Goals: NA
Best: NA
Report: NA

Round 7

MGS 24.9 (153) def Geelong Grammar 8.8 (56)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 3
Best: None
Report: “Even without centre half forward Tom Hawkins, who had to come off due to an ankle injury...Geelong had no answer to the dominance of Tom Hawkins”

Round 8

MGS 9.9 (63) def Caulfield Grammar 6.8 (44)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 3
Best: 5
Report: None

Round 9

MGS 14.6 (90) def Haileybury College 9.12 (66)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 3
Best: 1
Report: “Then with only seconds to go Ash Mackay kicked long to Tom Hawkins, who was infringed as the siren went. A long way out (some said 75 meters!) and into the teeth of the breeze, Tom banged it through to put us five points up at the break, and we never relinquished the lead...In the midfield Tom Hawkins and Sandy Robinson contested well in the ruck...”

Round 10

MGS 9.6 (60) def by Scotch College 20.7 (127)

Goals: Tom Hawkins 1
Best: None
Report: “In a very tight finish Xavier Ellis (43 votes) won from Tom Hawkins and Tom Paule (both 41)”

Year in Review

Preseason

Games: 3
Goals: Tom Hawkins 13

Season

Games: 9
Goals: Tom Hawkins noted at 20 goals, with one game NA.
B&F: Tied for 2nd.

And all this, as Phat noted, being double and triple teamed.