Universal Love Princes Park Update

[Jimmae]

Royal Parade is heritage listed but I'm not sure that any part of the ground is.

The Gardiner Stand has a heritage overlay and would most likely be limited to what actually could be done.

I think you're both right: it's a national trust cite, so technically it's not protected, but morally it's obviously something to consider.

The thing is, I don't think it would ever really get covered by the heritage act. Sure it's the second oldest surviving VFL stand, but it's hardly a bastion of culture or technology or style. It's a pretty standard pavilion.

Hell, relocate it a few hundred metres over and put it next to one of the other ovals and have VFL/VAFA/TAC games played there as curtain raisers.

 

[IschenkoUBeauty]

Even Princes Park lu.b IUB -

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

I think you're both right: it's a national trust cite, so technically it's not protected, but morally it's obviously something to consider.

The thing is, I don't think it would ever really get covered by the heritage act. Sure it's the second oldest surviving VFL stand, but it's hardly a bastion of culture or technology or style. It's a pretty standard pavilion.

Hell, relocate it a few hundred metres over and put it next to one of the other ovals and have VFL/VAFA/TAC games played there as curtain raisers.

Gardiner Stand is pretty fug. The half washed off Optus logo is an eyesore.

 

[Space Cadet]

A couple new big screens wouldn't hurt either.

 

[PumpyChowdown]

Most Melbourne based clubs could play most interstate teams there. Lots of revenue for the Blues.

 

[passmark]

The way to keep the cost down is not to go for a state of the art.

By all means upgrade the wheelchair access, toilets, catering but don't get hung up on benches versus individual seating etc and certainly don't think the whole ground needs to be demolished.

The whole beauty (and success) of yesterday was the return to a bygone era of suburban grounds with all their idiosyncracies and even their faults.

People will put up with it at certain venues (isn't Kooyong all benches etc and hosting the Davis cup?) for certain events.

People love nostalgia.

Also, two major factors in a crowded market (like Melbournes AFL market) is competitive advantage and differentiation.

Get a venue like PP up and running again and you have both covered and makes you a much more attractive membership option.

 

[ShanDog]

Didn't he say there were no plans for AFL home and away games not a week ago?

 

[AceAndy]

I thought i saw a 30-50 million cost to bring PP up to AFL standard. There seems to be a lot of sense to have a boutique stadium (25k) in Melbourne and could be used extensively throughout the season for visiting interstate teams (not just Carlton games).

Clearly we would not have the resources to undertake such a development and would need input from the AFL and government. Not sure the AFL is that keen , wonder how different it would be if it was Essendon or Collingwood.

 

[ShanDog]

Got to wonder if taking out a huge loan is worthwhile in the long run. If we own the ground and play our games there, surely it's worth it.

Then again what's the situation with Etihad and the AFL owning it at some point? I imagine the revenue we receive from playing there when that happens will be significantly better than now.

 

[passmark]

Also a massive pity to stick our headquarters behind the goals.

Bet they wish they could make that decision again.

 

[HBF]

Would be great to see Carlton play at Princes Park again, but as others have highlighted there are a multitude of upgrades that would need to made to bring it up to AFL standard. At least people are talking about it again after yesterday's success.

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

GWS, GC and Brisbane would be perfect games for Ikon.

Maybe Fremantle and WCE as well.

....given how our seasons have panned out over the past decade the return bout against Essendon in any given year would probably also be okay!!

 

[HBF]

Also a massive pity to stick our headquarters behind the goals.

Bet they wish they could make that decision again.

They could just about keep there and focus on other area's of the ground to work on.
The Hero's stand would be a good place to start. Alot of room over there, and a fair bit of "dead space" that could be better utilised.

 

[AceAndy]

Would be great to see Carlton play at Princes Park again, but as others have highlighted there are a multitude of upgrades that would need to made to bring it up to AFL standard. At least people are talking about it again after yesterday's success.

While there are people in the media and at Carlton talking about it doesnt seem the AFL are that interested so i suspect it will just stay as talk.

 

[AceAndy]

Also a massive pity to stick our headquarters behind the goals.

Bet they wish they could make that decision again.

Really doesnt look like we would be serious about playing AFL games at the venue.

 

[HBF]

While there are people in the media and at Carlton talking about it doesnt seem the AFL are that interested so i suspect it will just stay as talk.

You may very well be right AA, but at least the discussion is taking place. And with a new head at HQ you just never know what might happen.

 

[Omega Blue]

29999 capacity is the maximum size it could be until the etihad deal has expired (2025)
I believe they're legal road blocks put in place when etihad was made to ensure no venue above 30k could be made.
It's the reason aami park can only support sub 30k crowds even though the victory, city and storm could regularly exceed this.

This can be designed around by putting the infrastructure in for a stadium upgrade after the deal has expired.

 

[Aphrodite]

Trigg on GuesSEN this morning:-

listen to this on Audioboo

 

[Dramoth]

Options... options.

Carlton, in additions to holding the lease on the Princes Park #1 oval (where the stadium is), holds the lease on the #2 oval next door to it.

What the club could do, is offer to sublet the #2 oval to the AFL in exchange for their help in funding the construction of a new boutique stadium with a capacity of 15-20k seated and another 15-20k standing room only.

If could build the stadium stands well enough, we could have the spotlights for night matches as part of the roof, and remove the need to the massive big flood light towers dotted around the landscape.

If we could make the stands large enough so that there are 2 2-tiered stands at either end of the ground (wrapping around to around the HF and HB lines), you would still get a good view of the ground. Or you could put the stands on the wings stretching from halfway between the HF/HB lines and the pockets. With standing room behind the goals, in a hill type tiered arrangement with a kop type stand behind that so that the people at the back of the crowd can get a reasonable view.

The biggest issue once again is going to be transportation. However, if an agreement could be reached with the government to extend a light rail spur out to Princes Park, that along with the trams and near by train stations should be enough to handle the 30-40k crowds arriving and departing from the area. The only major issue is car parking space. And my response would be to, when excavating for the new stadiun, we go a bit lower and put in 2 levels of underground car parking... and then slowly tunnel under the #1 oval to basically double the size of the car park. Because we would be building tiered cantilevered stands, the stand supports would have to be buried fairly deeply and can be used as the major supports for the outside edges of the underground car park.

If we wanted to expand the ground at a later date, we convert one of the ends of the ground to more stands.

However, the costing on doing something like this would potentially run to around 60-100 million. With AFL funds and government funding, we would still have to find about 20 million of our own money to invest into it.

At that time, we would be hoping that the rich benefactors who use our club as a plaything would dig deep into their pockets to help with finding the 20 million.

 

[Sector 7G]

In less than 10 years the AFL will own Docklands.

I wonder where they will want games played and what the chance they will tip money into a 3rd stadium? I would suggest zero chance of it happening

 

[FRUMPY]

It wont happen. Its a fluff piece the media have been going with because 18k turned up to a practice games. There will be no further talk on it when round 1 comes around.

The stadium was shut down because it was too costly to run. Now it has been closed for over 10 years they would need to tear it down and start again. Be dumb to do it half ass. But the cost would be so great that it wouldn't be worth doing it. Hell, building the legends stand put us back many years financially (and it is a shocking stand)

Then there is the issue of residents/poor parking/poor transport etc. It just wont work. Move on. The AFL either have to make a boutique stadium somewhere or buy ethihad outright, neither will happen as they will wait till they get it for $1. They will then sell the land and build another stadium that works better than ethihad.

 

[Omega Blue]

Carlton has a gross income of 50-60 million, I've taken a home loan out for 4 times my annual income and i'd imagine the Carlton entity is a less default risk than i am.
No reason why we couldn't fund a 50 million dollar redevelopment ourselves.
Only thing stopping it would be planning permits.
That's where the state government would have to come to the party.

 

[Jimmae]

The way to keep the cost down is not to go for a state of the art.

By all means upgrade the wheelchair access, toilets, catering but don't get hung up on benches versus individual seating etc and certainly don't think the whole ground needs to be demolished.

The whole beauty (and success) of yesterday was the return to a bygone era of suburban grounds with all their idiosyncracies and even their faults.

People will put up with it at certain venues (isn't Kooyong all benches etc and hosting the Davis cup?) for certain events.

People love nostalgia.

Also, two major factors in a crowded market (like Melbournes AFL market) is competitive advantage and differentiation.

Get a venue like PP up and running again and you have both covered and makes you a much more attractive membership option.

No one was saying spare no expenses, but there are practical and beneficial opportunities through modernisation.

Hell, they can put in some solar panels, water recycling, some structures which will promote plant growth and a whole host of other initiatives and they'll actually save costs in the short and long term.

As for seating, how are you supposed to sell tickets to a row in a boutique stadium if you can't guarantee seating arrangements? Benches need to go for that reason alone.

Find other ways to generate nostalgia and quaintness.

 

[Jeremias]

As for seating, how are you supposed to sell tickets to a row in a boutique stadium if you can't guarantee seating arrangements? Benches need to go for that reason alone.

I'm guessing you've never been to Domain Stadium over in Perth.

 

[Jimmae]

I thought i saw a 30-50 million cost to bring PP up to AFL standard. There seems to be a lot of sense to have a boutique stadium (25k) in Melbourne and could be used extensively throughout the season for visiting interstate teams (not just Carlton games).

Clearly we would not have the resources to undertake such a development and would need input from the AFL and government. Not sure the AFL is that keen , wonder how different it would be if it was Essendon or Collingwood.

25k would have been the goal 10 years ago, not today.

It wont happen. Its a fluff piece the media have been going with because 18k turned up to a practice games. There will be no further talk on it when round 1 comes around.

The stadium was shut down because it was too costly to run. Now it has been closed for over 10 years they would need to tear it down and start again. Be dumb to do it half ass. But the cost would be so great that it wouldn't be worth doing it. Hell, building the legends stand put us back many years financially (and it is a shocking stand)

Then there is the issue of residents/poor parking/poor transport etc. It just wont work. Move on. The AFL either have to make a boutique stadium somewhere or buy ethihad outright, neither will happen as they will wait till they get it for $1. They will then sell the land and build another stadium that works better than ethihad.

What?