Problem. No club greats in current team.

[Cerpin Taxt]

Naturally it's going to be harder to find guys to squeeze into a greatest ever team as the club gets older.

 

[bluengold89]

Naturally it's going to be harder to find guysa to squeeze into a greatest ever team as the club gets older.

Exactly, I don't understand the point of this thread.

Emac may never push Jako and Glass out of our best ever 22, but he's arguably the best current full back in the AFL.

Lycett show's a lot of potential to be a great ruckman, but he'd be competing with Cox for a spot in our best ever 22, and Cox is close to (or is) the best ever ruckman.

Lecras, NicNat and Kennedy will all comfortably be best 22 by the end of their career, with Hurn definitely presenting a strong case also. We've been around for 25+ years now, 4 players from one generation making the best ever 22 is actually pretty impressive.

Our problem is our midfield, full stop.

Our midfield could markedly improve enough to win us a premiership, and still not push out any of our current best ever 22 midfielders. Judd, Cousins, Kerr and Matera is an insane line up. We could have 4 players in our midfield less talented than those and still have the best midfield in the comp.

Weird thread.

 

[Keys]

Naturally it's going to be harder to find guys to squeeze into a greatest ever team as the club gets older.

Correct.

How many of hawthorns 2014 premiership team would make hawthorns best ever team. Apart from hodge and Mitchell I don't think there'd be anyone else

 

[WCErevival]

I touched on it in another thread. Its not so much club greats we are lacking but experienced players. Priddis is our most experienced with 173 and only 2 other guys just over 150. That's quite low.

 

[ronpingwins]

When's the last time Kennedy has had a massive game and pulled us over the line against decent opposition? He makes his name kicking bags against crap teams, I'm afraid to say

I can think of two straight forward set shots for LeCras which would have put us in front in dying stages of matches against good teams and he fluffed them both.

And WTF happened to Darling? Kicked a bag and really stood up in the Semi against Carlton couple of years ago, now he's taken several steps back. What is happening to this team?

1) Against the Crows away this year. He started marking everything and kicked clutch goals. The same happened the previous year against the crows, suns and he polled 3 votes in a game away to the hawks. Not sure what you're expecting of him, but he's had multiple 60 goal seasons which is a hell of a lot more than Mitchell White.
2) How is that relevant to being in the greatest team ever? I'm also not sure what you're what games you're referring to other than Port last year when he was effected by the broken arm? You're also forgetting the goal from the boundary against the crows, the winner against the dogs a few years ago, putting WC back in front against the bombers very late in the game last year. Like Kennedy, he has had multiple seasons of 60 goals and will probably end up joining Kennedy and Sumich as the clubs greatest ever goalscorers.
3) Darling kicked 3 in that game. But he barely averaged a goal per game/10 possessions per game. He has gotten significantly better since then in various roles.

 

[Jack_the_Ninja]

Its quite simple, these are the middle years in between premierships. These days make the next one sweeter, without the relativity of shitness to greatness how could we experience the highest of highs ? without the lowest of lows.

 

[Dark Sharks]

I touched on it in another thread. Its not so much club greats we are lacking but experienced players. Priddis is our most experienced with 173 and only 2 other guys just over 150. That's quite low.

I think you mean "That's quite sad"

The fact Matt is now our most experienced and polarises our entire fanbase despite having a brownlow around his neck says something.

 

[jod23]

Evans - Lecras
Gardiner - Naitanui
Banfield - Hurn - I love Banfield but Hurn is better than him in every way.
White - Kennedy
Emac will eventually be in that team - probably on the bench - hard to get into that starting back 6.


Over time I expect - Shuey Darling Yeo and especially McGovern to put their names forward for contention.

That being said we need more absolute top line mids - mids who will force some of the greats to the bench. What a day that will be when we finally have one or two of those.

Until then, our Elite talls will guide us towards a premiership.

I think you may be in some kind of dream land. Yeo and Shuey have shown nowhere near enough to suggest they could get anywhere near an all time team when they are done. Not sure on your Hurn over Banfield call either. McGovern is a player though, but early doors for him.

 

[jod23]

I said Shuey has the potential, not that he should be in. It's easy looking back on Glass, Jako, and McIntoshs careers and say that they are greats, at the end of EMacs career he could replace Glass! Obviously it's not the case now but my point was that your looking at our team now and they are all still young, and there is a lot of potential in our team.

While I agree there is potential and we are a young side, I just dont see it. Ive been watching football a long time and even when a player is yet to put it all together, you can earmark a bloke and go, yep he is gonna be outstanding. I dont see that with any players in our side outside of Easy who is very good. Not sure he could replace Glass though, huge call that.

 

[Lyyynnnchy]

While I agree there is potential and we are a young side, I just dont see it. Ive been watching football a long time and even when a player is yet to put it all together, you can earmark a bloke and go, yep he is gonna be outstanding. I dont see that with any players in our side outside of Easy who is very good. Not sure he could replace Glass though, huge call that.

I guess you called Cox a future HOF when he couldn't break in to the team as a 23yr old

 

[jod23]

You realise we were negative 4 in clearances without Teo but +14 with Yeo. i stopped reading when I saw you didn't have him in your team

In saying that, I get the jist of your post but it's pretty horrible

Wire panda hardky played until he was 20/21. People were calling for Glass to be delisted up until he was about 24. Cox couldn't couldn't make the team when he was Lycetts age.

We have a young team, give them a chance. Shuey, Naitanui, Yeo, Lycett, Lecras, Kennedy, McKenzie, Darling among others all have time on their side

Erm didnt Wirrpanda debut at 17 and some people thought he might have been 16 as their was all sorts of controversy about his actual birth certificate? Also from the word go, you knew Wirra was sheer class. Cox and Glass are KPP and take longer to come through.

Blokes like Judd, Cousins, Kerr etc were drafted and immediately played and made an impact. Guys like Shuey, Selwood, Rosa, Selwood have been prodding along for years with no real sign of them being world beaters.

 

[jod23]

I guess you called Cox a future HOF when he couldn't break in to the team as a 23yr old

KPP's take far longer to get up to speed than say small forwards, utilities, mids, flankers, back pockets etc

 

[Selurs]

I touched on it in another thread. Its not so much club greats we are lacking but experienced players. Priddis is our most experienced with 173 and only 2 other guys just over 150. That's quite low.

I believe (though could be wrong) that between December 7th (when Joel Patfull turns 30) and March 21st next year (when Priddis turns 30) we are the only team in the league without a listed player in their 30's - as a nice little contrast, Hawthorn have 5, all best 22, and Geelong have 9, and a case could be made that all of those are also best 22 (and as a side note that Geelong are potentially facing some dark days ahead...)

Having experienced players performing at the peak of their abilities is what makes the difference between a good team and a great team. We need to be realistic in our expectations for a lot of our players - they are still working into their careers. The important factor in this is that most of this team will still be together when players we draft this year and next are coming into their own in three to four years time, so if we nail the next few drafts, we could well return to the upper echelons of the ladder for an extended period of time.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

While I agree there is potential and we are a young side, I just dont see it. Ive been watching football a long time and even when a player is yet to put it all together, you can earmark a bloke and go, yep he is gonna be outstanding. I dont see that with any players in our side outside of Easy who is very good. Not sure he could replace Glass though, huge call that.

That's true but there are always elements that you can't predict. The influence of coaches and new team mates, the later both in terms of their personality and the capacity to improve the players around them.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

B - Wirrpanda Glass McIntosh
HB - McKenna Jakovich Worsfold
C - Matera Kemp Kerr
HF - Lewis White Heady
FF - Ph.Matera Sumich Evans
R - Cox Judd Cousins

INT - Gardiner Embley Banfield Mainwaring

I loved Tony Evans but LeCras should easily be in the pocket ahead of him.

So problem solved?

 

[Eagle87]

Yeah and that's why I singled out those four. But they are the only guys with even half a shot at making it. That's the problem. Plus those four guys are making it into spots that arent hugely contested.

The back up ruck spot is there for the taking. If he was challenging Cox for first ruck I would sit up and take notice but he isnt. CHF has been a black hole for us so Kennedy is skating in. He isnt displacing say a Pavlich or Reiwoldt if say one of those guys had played for us. He is displacing Mitchell White.

The other two in Darling and LeCras are replacing the other two weaker players in our best all time 22 in Heady and Evans.

So the four blokes with considerations are just skating into the last 4 weak spots in the team.

We dont have guys making you question whether you drop Kerr or Kemp from your all time midfield. We dont have guys making you think, should we drop McKenna or Woosha off that half back flank etc etc...

We dont have any real top line players. Which is why I know a lot of people are excited for 2015 but we are a way off. We might squeeze into 6th-8th but we will be just making up the numbers.

Until we have 6-8 guys making us really question removing some top quality footballers from our all time best 22 then we wont get close to a premiership.

Heady? A weak link?

FFS are you 12?

Brett Heady was an outstanding footballer and he's got both Lecca and Darling covered comfortably at this stage.

 

[jod23]

Heady? A weak link?

FFS are you 12?

Brett Heady was an outstanding footballer and he's got both Lecca and Darling covered comfortably at this stage.

No im not 12. Im sure im older than you champ.

Yeah in that forward line after White, he would be the next guy in trouble of keeping his spot. He was a terrific footballer but in our all time team, Sumich, Ph.Matera and Lewis are locks. Evans, White are the first two out which you would think Kennedy and LeCras could replace. Next on the chopping block would be Heady. But I do agree Darling still has a long way to get him. I think he will though.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

As good as Heady was and as much as I loved to watch him play, he never made AA and only finished in the top 10 of the B&F twice, never higher than 5th.

 

[Eagle87]

No im not 12. Im sure im older than you champ.

Yeah in that forward line after White, he would be the next guy in trouble of keeping his spot. He was a terrific footballer but in our all time team. Sumich, Ph.Matera and Lewis are locks. Evans, White are the first two out which you would think Kennedy and LeCras could replace. Next on the chopping block would be Heady. But I do agree Darling still has a long way to get him. I think he will though.

I'd doubt your older, there's no doubt your struggling in this matter.

Heady was better than Phil Matera, Heady was better than Lecca. So if Darling threatens someone it's more likely Lecca.

In fact once Mick decided Lewis was a more or less permanent half forward, you could argue Heady was better than Lewis. Don't get me wrong, I love Lewis, but the young guy that was going to take the world by storm in 1990 never fully delivered on that and he became a very very good half forward primarily without Jobbys marking. Lewis was great ahs certainly some of that early stuff was ahead but as half forwards I'd probably be more confident trusting Heady when the game needed someone to take over.

He was the player who turned the tide in the 1992 flag, arguably the Norm Smith could have gone to him. Mick moving him into the middle turned the game and Jobby never quite understand why he didn't get more midfield time across his career.

So for clarity, Heady is ahead of Phil Matera, Lecca, White and Evans. Fido was a very good player but if I was picking between the 2, I know who would stand up in the biggest games and create a matchup problem due to his marking strength coupled with ground level play and then could turn a game in the middle.... Matera was a very good small forward who was

Matera played 6 finals for 1 goal and was awful in all of them.

 

[Truckosaurus]

Solution: Bring Jako out of retirement.

 

[Eagle87]

As good as Heady was and as much as I loved to watch him play, he never made AA and only finished in the top 10 of the B&F twice, never higher than 5th.

Seriously?

You're going with that? Priddis is a club great then.

You'd choose Lecca or Fido ahead of him?

Perhaps ask any of the leading players at the club from 1990 to say 2003 ..... They'd all pick Heady.

The 1990's weren't a great time for recognition of our players. Guys like Kemp were criminally underrated. Heady perhaps too. But his issues with durability, caused largely by gamestyle hurt him in awards.

Heady stood up routinely when needed. In big games. Which he saw way more of than Lecca has. And Fido sucked at them. For me his natural ability together with his big game ability, including and especially the 1992 GF off an awful injury interrupted preparation, put him with the greats. Fido and Lecca are stats pretty but have never shown it or won it when it matters. Lecca really isn't a guy you'd be confident of standing up when it counts, he's good but hasn't shown that yet.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Seriously?

You're going with that? Priddis is a club great then.

You'd choose Lecca or Fido ahead of him?

I said I'd have Lecca in the team instead of Evans. Who also routinely stood up in finals, for what it's worth.

Heady is comfortably in there, at least for now. I just don't think his position is as concrete as you. He'd go out before Fido for example just on sheer weight of numbers - Fido's our second-leading goalscorer of all time.

 

[jaxxon]

Heady would get more recognition if he had have played more in the midfield. But yes, he was a big part of the win in 92.

 

[Keys]

In fact once Mick decided Lewis was a more or less permanent half forward,

Lewis was one of Malthouse's failures as coach imo. Chris was arguably our most naturally creative midfielders but lacked the defensive side to his game that Mick demanded, as a result he was played more as a half forward / forward pocket which allowed sides to lock down on him more than they would have been able to had he been running through the middle.

 

[Eagle87]

I said I'd have Lecca in the team instead of Evans. Who also routinely stood up in finals, for what it's worth.

Heady is comfortably in there, at least for now. I just don't think his position is as concrete as you. He'd go out before Fido for example just on sheer weight of numbers - Fido's our second-leading goalscorer of all time.

Once again you fail to grasp actual football and just see stats...

Fido was great in home & away games when we were either really poor (Judge years) or struggling to scrape into the 8. When the real pressure was applied in 6 finals, he was completely and utterly hopeless.

If you rate volume over quality and impact then, well it explains a lot of things including your inability to really put the boot into Matt.

He's a Brownlow medallist, must be a walk up....

Fido was a flat track bully. A good one. Many poor sides have guys who track up stats/goals/whatever... I wanted Fido in the 2005 Grand Final but I know why Woosh wasnt fussed or prepared to take the risk. And it wasn't cos Fido was a great goal scorer. He just looked at his record. When it mattered.

Very good player, not a champion. Heady was. Heady also gave you flexibility. He could play tall, small and midfield. Better player ....