News Pyke Gone
- Thread starter Tex200
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I think it's not so much what happened with the camp, it was the clubs utter refusal to deal with it beyond "get over it", once the complaints were made. Even if they were minor, the club showed no care to fix a situation some players were troubled by. Then eventually it was promised we'd fix it, people would change and it never happened. How are players supposed to have any trust in management when your complaints and suggestions are constantly dismissed with "I know better", which is exactly the type of attitude Roo and Burton have.
That was quick. Any lingering issues?
Nope he's gone now, all is fine.
He started a seismic data company or something like that to do with oil and gas exploration after he left Adelaide the first time. Sold the company off and made a ton of money then went back to WC as an assistant.
I certainly don’t think he was the problem and I’m sceptical about our ability to recruit a better replacement
My issue was his selection policy but that is almost certainly driven by his contractual targets and other KPI’s
Sorry to hear about Pyke but probably the best for all concerned. Would not be surprised if he decided to have a complete break from football or perhaps end up on the Board of some Club or Organisation. One thing about Pyke, he is no fool!
GreyCrow
TheBrownDog
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Studley jr
No, the fools are still at our club
He actually said today he wants to continue coaching and believes hes still got a lot to offer. Surprised me, I thought he would have had enough.
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Where did I say they weren’t ?
I just watched the 360 segment again, Robbo's comments on Chapman,
"He made an error when he said they are looking at a pay out, he's later clarified that and no, there won't be, Don Pyke resigned"
Southerntakeover
Too Sweet
I think I differ from you here. I don't think there was much to have faith in regarding his coaching ability. This year the plan A was bad, and he never showed an ability to adjust. And over the four years that he coached us, how many times did you see evidence of a particular strategy he'd devised for a game? A roll of the dice? Something he'd picked up in the opposition that he thought we could target that paid off?
He seemed to be another from the Craig school. Set your plan at the start of the year, and back it in endlessly. It often wasnt clear why he turned up for game day.
I don't think he was the only problem, but I do think he was a problem.
- Nov 14, 2007
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His exit today and the fact that he is walking speaks volumes
You’re right
There’s a few that could learn from that.
Hopefully the players are all in witness protection.
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Sorry, but it's going to be another long rant, there's a TL / DR at bottom if interested but have better things to read than a long rant from me.
I don't want to be that conspiracy guy, but if there is something rotten at the club, Done Pyke stepping down in the middle of an external review would have its fingerprints all over it. Have you ever paid close attention toe how this club does things? They let Trigg leave when he wanted to leave, or so it seemed, this might have just been the CEO's equivalent of a Richard Douglas "retirement". That's another questionable act from this club, Douglas "retired" and isn't a veteran player delisted hoping for another club, or the club tried to have everyone believe, why couldn't they just be honest? The AFC weren't penalised for Tippettgate, they voluntarily handed over two 1st and two 2nd round draft picks. It was Collective Mind's fault for the 2018 pre-season failure, but it wasn't Brett Burton's fault and/or Mark Ricciiuto's fault... but it was the Football department's fault (Which they both lead)... I'm not an idiot, I can see the club is trying to BS me into believing a false version of events. They want to lie and mislead because they don't want us fans knowing their truth. How does this not seem a little sinister and concerning to a passionate, integral fan?
You'll also note when they can't avoid accountability, they're suddenly "Happy to accept responsibility" for their failings. This club has a highly structured and professional PR department that refuse to treat you and I like passionate, money paying fans who deserve to know what's really going on down at the AFC.
I heard the line "The Adelaide Football Club does the most amount of media out of any club in the AFL". It's a strong statement, on the surface it sounds like something to be proud of, but those of us who have listened to this club knows this is another form of misinformation. Sure, this is technically correct, but when most of the time someone from the club is simply repeating the same, selective, calculated, short and vague as possible message, this statement appears to be more of a diversion away from the fact they club doesn't give much information to their fans. Just because they repeat that message in slightly different ways on many occasions makes this statement a calculated distraction by the club. There was deceit intended behind this statement with the hope the less savvy or less interested would never pick up on it. It helps give the club time and then when time passes they can move on to something else, successfully really ever talking and being honest about the last incident. This goes on and on, it's a game being played. How can any club with passion and integrity ever do this to their fans?
To hear the ramblings of Malcolm Blight, who passionately put the AFC on blast through the media over its current predicament, is an honesty and openness I strive hard to try and achieve in my life. So when I'm held at arms length at all times by a club who also pretends to be open and honest, it's a real slap in the face. I'm not sure how many others feel the same way, or as passionately, I don't mind risking the assumption that there would be many of that nature here. So what does that mean for me/us? My interest in the VFL/AFL began when Adelaide entered the AFL. Back then we had much loved state of origin, which many South Australians loved with a passion. To "Kick a Vic" meant something and then all of a sudden we had the Crows which kind of resembled state of origin footy on a weekly bases. I mean the Crows is just short for "Crow Eaters" and the colours are almost the same as the State colours, kind of the same, right? I know, it's not the same as state of origin so please don't jump on me for that, but it had a state v state feel about it, the club was full of South Australians in its beginning
So how does the SANFL take something like we had with our passionate support for suburban football clubs around Adelaide and replicate it on the national stage? The creation of the Crows led to the hijacking of the true football supporters of SA, we even had lots of Port supporters as fans back in the early days. Okay, fine, there didn't seem to be a better option at the time, we should have joined earlier. We were almost forced to start the club the way it was and as a result the club strove to become the full representation of the combined efforts of South Australian football. The Crows aimed to put South Australian football on the line in the VFL/AFL, I felt we had a reputation to keep within Aussie Rules Football, so we need to be somewhat successful. This club needed to represent "success" for the integrity of the best of SA football, which it achieved spectacularly in 1997 and 1998, back to back premierships was the true stamp of a club's dominance within a given era. "The Kangaroos and the Crows ruled the AFL late nineties between them" is a statement that is factually correct, we now have a permanent mark in history.
This was the sort of non-negotiable success the club desperately needed to give it credibility as a powerhouse of Australian Rules Football and ever since then this club has refused to be as committed to winning a premiership as the people back then. Instead, the club has a commitment to a professional image and it's getting in the way of how any club needs to act in order to turn their fortunes around. The club needs to be brutally honest with itself and hang all of its dirty laundry out to dry for all to see. Instead the AFC only ever does this when they have no other option. There are too many risks being taken at the club with a lack of real oversight. The inner bubble they've created seems to be leading to illogical decisions, it doesn't take a genius to understand that getting in non-AFL people, Collective Minds, to run your player development program is bound to become a problem. It shows the leadership lack a connection to the playing group and this goes right through to many of the coaches as well.
I thought coaches, who were past AFL footballers, were supposed to bring something uniquely good to the table that revolved around themselves as people with AFL experience. Instead we seem to have a bunch of coaches who are 100% coaching in a way that you would get from a trained classroom coach with zero AFL playing experience. Everything being done at the Crows seems to have been learned in a classroom and not drawn upon from those past years when the coach was playing and starring. I think I know why the players aren't having any fun. The Crows are sports science mad and it's sucking the fun out of the game for the players. The ghost of Neil Craig still lingers at the club.
It's time the club started asking for the support it deserves, it needs to humble itself for once instead of being humbled and then trying to cover it up. We are in the middle of an external review, the timing of this couldn't be worse the integrity of the external review. Imagine if the review came out and said that Pyke needed to stay with changes made around him. I mean, can the club even reveal such a thing if that was the result now?
So if you've made it this far, it's time for the conspiracy, the club organised for Don Pyke to leave on his own terms in order to protect the removal of others at the club who are singled out by the external review. We'll get a similar message from the club as we got with Trigg, something along the lines of "We understand the situation with Trigg/Burton, but with that other situation involving Tippett/Pyke we will be sticking by Trigg/Burton and backing him in, he's a quality person and belongs at this football club, I have no doubts he will continue to do a great job".
With Pyke stepping down, it feels like the club is making preemptive moves of its own so it can justify ignoring the findings of the external review. I guarantee many of the results will be kept from us fans in order to save the careers of people who need to be moved on, but that's only if the results are contradictory to what the club is doing, Pyke, and what the club desires, possibly no further stepping down of personnel (sackings). If so, this will prove to me that something is wrong with this football club and it will never be fixed until every key person currently at that club has moved on. I say "has moved on" because we all know those at the club will never be "moved on" (sacked) by the club, instead desperate to control the message by making us all believe that they never sack anyone, it's always some magical, good terms, mutual agreements. It's a way of them saying "There's nothing to see here, move along, all is great at the club, keep your ears and eyes to yourself or go support another club".
I mean, come on, the club was claiming everything was fantastic after last year's pre-season, then they back downed and "took responsibility" when it was proven the club was lying. Then for some reason we never talk about the lie and why they lie and why they insult their fans with lies, this is never the subject and if it ever becomes close to being the subject, the subject is always changed or trivialised or dismissed. Then they carry on as if they didn't lie to us, as if we have no right to doubt them. Amazingly for me, this was something that Roo said and proves my underlying belief of what really goes on at the club.
This club doesn't think you have the right to demand honest answers and are angry that they even have to entertain such a notion. There's the cancer right there, it's an ugly cancer and it reveals serious flaws about the characters of some people at the club. This is too embarrassing for the egos involved to admit to themselves or the public, so now they have to try desperately to save their reputations and are dragging this club down in the process. This is the stubbornness of pride, they call us the "pride" of South Australia, its an arrogance that the club enjoyed riding for years, taking L after L after L to show how much pride it really had in the face of all those L's. But I don't want the club to be about taking L's like a man, I want the club to strive for ultimate success and that means getting deadly serious and honest, which this club is not comfortable in doing. They'll give us 90% and when we whinge loud enough, they increase that to 91% and expect us to be grateful.
I would rather be thanking Don Pyke for his time as our coach instead of this rant, I don't doubt his integrity and passion for the game as a man, but something happened that can't be undone and the timing of this just adds fuel to the fire burning in the basement at the club. I seriously don't think this club can fix itself and will find ways to justify going against the findings of the external review due to the damaging of their "pride", I think the conclusions of the review will be conclusions those at the club deep down already know. I feel this club will do what it always has done, try to minimise the damage from its failures which, in this case, just so happens to be how bad the flaws of the people in charge are. These flaws also mean they're incapable of finding better people, so they try not to change personnel thinking they'll probably end up with someone worse due to their own flaws in being able to recruit people. It's a vicious cycle, but probably all just a load of crap at the end of the day meaning my ranting and speculating is completely wrong and pointless.
I tell you what, though, if the club wants me to stop with the reckless speculation and conspiracy theories, then they need to prove to me they deserve that I stop. They've given me no other reason to think that there might be some inner conspiracy, they need to stop with their crap, move bloody Chapman on (and others), I can't stand him, there has to be someone better to be our club President than him. My early vote is for Kate Ellis, something needs to change at the club, so let's bring in a woman to run things differently. Maybe it will be worse, but maybe it will be a lot better. We won't get better results than the results we are getting now as long as the same Spin Doctors at our club hang around and aren't "moved on" (sacked).
This club needs an overhaul and to start again, instead it looks like moves are being made inside the club so the majority of people already there and who caused our problems in the first place to all keep their jobs. These people would like to take this moment to thank Don Pyke for saving their bacons, I'm saying it on their behaves because it's something many are all thinking, but are too gutless or ashamed to say it too the public. This is why I believe Don Pyke is a real club person, he fell on his sword hoping that this action will keep others in their jobs, those who the external review say should be moved on.
The club didn't win us fans the premiership that it owed us after that Tippett crap, now we have to start over, they failed, they've had many chances, our club can't heal and make an attack for another premiership until we purge all the cancer that gave us Tippett-gate in the first place. There's me being a selfish fan, well, I don't apologise, they hijacked my passion for supporting football in the SANFL when I was young and naive, now they owe me a reward, not give rewards for the boys in the boy's club thatdoesn't exist(s).
TL/DR: Don Pyke stepping down seems to be a calculated ploy by the club, organised by people in charge at the club to save the careers of certain people who will fall foul of the findings of the external review. The club lied to me before so why wouldn't they lie to me about this, every time the club is under the pump over something, whether it be Tippett, 2018 pre-season, delisting of Douglas, the club trots out a lie to cover up the ugly truth behind their decision, why wouldn't Pyke stepping down be another one of these cover up moves by the club? It works in so well with them telling the media why certain people at the club will keep their positions despite being under the pump from the outside and/or the external review. The club owes the fans a premiership after the way it has acted in recent times, or almost everyone there needs to be moved on. We missed chances to win premierships in the past, enough is enough, too many scandals, too many errors, to many lies and deceptions. Strike 3 means you're out. Time for a major clean out and starting again, but all we'll get is the same BS PR narrative which got us here in the first place.
I don't want to be that conspiracy guy, but if there is something rotten at the club, Done Pyke stepping down in the middle of an external review would have its fingerprints all over it. Have you ever paid close attention toe how this club does things? They let Trigg leave when he wanted to leave, or so it seemed, this might have just been the CEO's equivalent of a Richard Douglas "retirement". That's another questionable act from this club, Douglas "retired" and isn't a veteran player delisted hoping for another club, or the club tried to have everyone believe, why couldn't they just be honest? The AFC weren't penalised for Tippettgate, they voluntarily handed over two 1st and two 2nd round draft picks. It was Collective Mind's fault for the 2018 pre-season failure, but it wasn't Brett Burton's fault and/or Mark Ricciiuto's fault... but it was the Football department's fault (Which they both lead)... I'm not an idiot, I can see the club is trying to BS me into believing a false version of events. They want to lie and mislead because they don't want us fans knowing their truth. How does this not seem a little sinister and concerning to a passionate, integral fan?
You'll also note when they can't avoid accountability, they're suddenly "Happy to accept responsibility" for their failings. This club has a highly structured and professional PR department that refuse to treat you and I like passionate, money paying fans who deserve to know what's really going on down at the AFC.
I heard the line "The Adelaide Football Club does the most amount of media out of any club in the AFL". It's a strong statement, on the surface it sounds like something to be proud of, but those of us who have listened to this club knows this is another form of misinformation. Sure, this is technically correct, but when most of the time someone from the club is simply repeating the same, selective, calculated, short and vague as possible message, this statement appears to be more of a diversion away from the fact they club doesn't give much information to their fans. Just because they repeat that message in slightly different ways on many occasions makes this statement a calculated distraction by the club. There was deceit intended behind this statement with the hope the less savvy or less interested would never pick up on it. It helps give the club time and then when time passes they can move on to something else, successfully really ever talking and being honest about the last incident. This goes on and on, it's a game being played. How can any club with passion and integrity ever do this to their fans?
To hear the ramblings of Malcolm Blight, who passionately put the AFC on blast through the media over its current predicament, is an honesty and openness I strive hard to try and achieve in my life. So when I'm held at arms length at all times by a club who also pretends to be open and honest, it's a real slap in the face. I'm not sure how many others feel the same way, or as passionately, I don't mind risking the assumption that there would be many of that nature here. So what does that mean for me/us? My interest in the VFL/AFL began when Adelaide entered the AFL. Back then we had much loved state of origin, which many South Australians loved with a passion. To "Kick a Vic" meant something and then all of a sudden we had the Crows which kind of resembled state of origin footy on a weekly bases. I mean the Crows is just short for "Crow Eaters" and the colours are almost the same as the State colours, kind of the same, right? I know, it's not the same as state of origin so please don't jump on me for that, but it had a state v state feel about it, the club was full of South Australians in its beginning
So how does the SANFL take something like we had with our passionate support for suburban football clubs around Adelaide and replicate it on the national stage? The creation of the Crows led to the hijacking of the true football supporters of SA, we even had lots of Port supporters as fans back in the early days. Okay, fine, there didn't seem to be a better option at the time, we should have joined earlier. We were almost forced to start the club the way it was and as a result the club strove to become the full representation of the combined efforts of South Australian football. The Crows aimed to put South Australian football on the line in the VFL/AFL, I felt we had a reputation to keep within Aussie Rules Football, so we need to be somewhat successful. This club needed to represent "success" for the integrity of the best of SA football, which it achieved spectacularly in 1997 and 1998, back to back premierships was the true stamp of a club's dominance within a given era. "The Kangaroos and the Crows ruled the AFL late nineties between them" is a statement that is factually correct, we now have a permanent mark in history.
This was the sort of non-negotiable success the club desperately needed to give it credibility as a powerhouse of Australian Rules Football and ever since then this club has refused to be as committed to winning a premiership as the people back then. Instead, the club has a commitment to a professional image and it's getting in the way of how any club needs to act in order to turn their fortunes around. The club needs to be brutally honest with itself and hang all of its dirty laundry out to dry for all to see. Instead the AFC only ever does this when they have no other option. There are too many risks being taken at the club with a lack of real oversight. The inner bubble they've created seems to be leading to illogical decisions, it doesn't take a genius to understand that getting in non-AFL people, Collective Minds, to run your player development program is bound to become a problem. It shows the leadership lack a connection to the playing group and this goes right through to many of the coaches as well.
I thought coaches, who were past AFL footballers, were supposed to bring something uniquely good to the table that revolved around themselves as people with AFL experience. Instead we seem to have a bunch of coaches who are 100% coaching in a way that you would get from a trained classroom coach with zero AFL playing experience. Everything being done at the Crows seems to have been learned in a classroom and not drawn upon from those past years when the coach was playing and starring. I think I know why the players aren't having any fun. The Crows are sports science mad and it's sucking the fun out of the game for the players. The ghost of Neil Craig still lingers at the club.
It's time the club started asking for the support it deserves, it needs to humble itself for once instead of being humbled and then trying to cover it up. We are in the middle of an external review, the timing of this couldn't be worse the integrity of the external review. Imagine if the review came out and said that Pyke needed to stay with changes made around him. I mean, can the club even reveal such a thing if that was the result now?
So if you've made it this far, it's time for the conspiracy, the club organised for Don Pyke to leave on his own terms in order to protect the removal of others at the club who are singled out by the external review. We'll get a similar message from the club as we got with Trigg, something along the lines of "We understand the situation with Trigg/Burton, but with that other situation involving Tippett/Pyke we will be sticking by Trigg/Burton and backing him in, he's a quality person and belongs at this football club, I have no doubts he will continue to do a great job".
With Pyke stepping down, it feels like the club is making preemptive moves of its own so it can justify ignoring the findings of the external review. I guarantee many of the results will be kept from us fans in order to save the careers of people who need to be moved on, but that's only if the results are contradictory to what the club is doing, Pyke, and what the club desires, possibly no further stepping down of personnel (sackings). If so, this will prove to me that something is wrong with this football club and it will never be fixed until every key person currently at that club has moved on. I say "has moved on" because we all know those at the club will never be "moved on" (sacked) by the club, instead desperate to control the message by making us all believe that they never sack anyone, it's always some magical, good terms, mutual agreements. It's a way of them saying "There's nothing to see here, move along, all is great at the club, keep your ears and eyes to yourself or go support another club".
I mean, come on, the club was claiming everything was fantastic after last year's pre-season, then they back downed and "took responsibility" when it was proven the club was lying. Then for some reason we never talk about the lie and why they lie and why they insult their fans with lies, this is never the subject and if it ever becomes close to being the subject, the subject is always changed or trivialised or dismissed. Then they carry on as if they didn't lie to us, as if we have no right to doubt them. Amazingly for me, this was something that Roo said and proves my underlying belief of what really goes on at the club.
This club doesn't think you have the right to demand honest answers and are angry that they even have to entertain such a notion. There's the cancer right there, it's an ugly cancer and it reveals serious flaws about the characters of some people at the club. This is too embarrassing for the egos involved to admit to themselves or the public, so now they have to try desperately to save their reputations and are dragging this club down in the process. This is the stubbornness of pride, they call us the "pride" of South Australia, its an arrogance that the club enjoyed riding for years, taking L after L after L to show how much pride it really had in the face of all those L's. But I don't want the club to be about taking L's like a man, I want the club to strive for ultimate success and that means getting deadly serious and honest, which this club is not comfortable in doing. They'll give us 90% and when we whinge loud enough, they increase that to 91% and expect us to be grateful.
I would rather be thanking Don Pyke for his time as our coach instead of this rant, I don't doubt his integrity and passion for the game as a man, but something happened that can't be undone and the timing of this just adds fuel to the fire burning in the basement at the club. I seriously don't think this club can fix itself and will find ways to justify going against the findings of the external review due to the damaging of their "pride", I think the conclusions of the review will be conclusions those at the club deep down already know. I feel this club will do what it always has done, try to minimise the damage from its failures which, in this case, just so happens to be how bad the flaws of the people in charge are. These flaws also mean they're incapable of finding better people, so they try not to change personnel thinking they'll probably end up with someone worse due to their own flaws in being able to recruit people. It's a vicious cycle, but probably all just a load of crap at the end of the day meaning my ranting and speculating is completely wrong and pointless.
I tell you what, though, if the club wants me to stop with the reckless speculation and conspiracy theories, then they need to prove to me they deserve that I stop. They've given me no other reason to think that there might be some inner conspiracy, they need to stop with their crap, move bloody Chapman on (and others), I can't stand him, there has to be someone better to be our club President than him. My early vote is for Kate Ellis, something needs to change at the club, so let's bring in a woman to run things differently. Maybe it will be worse, but maybe it will be a lot better. We won't get better results than the results we are getting now as long as the same Spin Doctors at our club hang around and aren't "moved on" (sacked).
This club needs an overhaul and to start again, instead it looks like moves are being made inside the club so the majority of people already there and who caused our problems in the first place to all keep their jobs. These people would like to take this moment to thank Don Pyke for saving their bacons, I'm saying it on their behaves because it's something many are all thinking, but are too gutless or ashamed to say it too the public. This is why I believe Don Pyke is a real club person, he fell on his sword hoping that this action will keep others in their jobs, those who the external review say should be moved on.
The club didn't win us fans the premiership that it owed us after that Tippett crap, now we have to start over, they failed, they've had many chances, our club can't heal and make an attack for another premiership until we purge all the cancer that gave us Tippett-gate in the first place. There's me being a selfish fan, well, I don't apologise, they hijacked my passion for supporting football in the SANFL when I was young and naive, now they owe me a reward, not give rewards for the boys in the boy's club that
TL/DR: Don Pyke stepping down seems to be a calculated ploy by the club, organised by people in charge at the club to save the careers of certain people who will fall foul of the findings of the external review. The club lied to me before so why wouldn't they lie to me about this, every time the club is under the pump over something, whether it be Tippett, 2018 pre-season, delisting of Douglas, the club trots out a lie to cover up the ugly truth behind their decision, why wouldn't Pyke stepping down be another one of these cover up moves by the club? It works in so well with them telling the media why certain people at the club will keep their positions despite being under the pump from the outside and/or the external review. The club owes the fans a premiership after the way it has acted in recent times, or almost everyone there needs to be moved on. We missed chances to win premierships in the past, enough is enough, too many scandals, too many errors, to many lies and deceptions. Strike 3 means you're out. Time for a major clean out and starting again, but all we'll get is the same BS PR narrative which got us here in the first place.
SugarShane
C12 H22 O11
2 weeks time:
Chapman: After an exhaustive, nationwide search, we have found our new coach. He was far and away the standout candidate and is highly regarded in the industry, and best of all, he is a premiership coach. It gives me great pleasure to introduce the new coach of the Adelaide Crows, Matthew Clarke.
Chapman: After an exhaustive, nationwide search, we have found our new coach. He was far and away the standout candidate and is highly regarded in the industry, and best of all, he is a premiership coach. It gives me great pleasure to introduce the new coach of the Adelaide Crows, Matthew Clarke.
Just watched the presser
Don is all class
Chappy is a slug
My reading is that Don has guven up the good fight on not coaching the club but all the other things preventing us by being a winning culture
Chappy needs tp fo ASAP
On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Don is all class
Chappy is a slug
My reading is that Don has guven up the good fight on not coaching the club but all the other things preventing us by being a winning culture
Chappy needs tp fo ASAP
On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app
- Moderator
- #973
What review
Chappy thinks we have the best Footy Department
Absolute fool
How can this goose survive ?
AmericanCrow
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He was in a gots to go situation and the last two years his teams fell apart in the second half of the season.
But the fact remains he came into an extremely difficult and nearly unprecedented situation and steered us to a GF and a wonderful thrashing of the Cats at home to get there (lest we forget)
So I will remember that game as the culmination of quite an emotional roller coaster over that year plus.
Good luck to him and his family
And Thank You
But the fact remains he came into an extremely difficult and nearly unprecedented situation and steered us to a GF and a wonderful thrashing of the Cats at home to get there (lest we forget)
So I will remember that game as the culmination of quite an emotional roller coaster over that year plus.
Good luck to him and his family
And Thank You
SugarShane
C12 H22 O11
There is no way an assistant coach with no semblance of success should be at a single club for 10 years.
There is no way a club that is about to force a player into retirement should still be playing them in R23 instead of youth.
There is no way the people in charge of both the Tippett and Camp fiascos should have survived those fallouts.
Yet here we are.
