Quick question about tanking

[Books]

Lots of teams cheated the salary cap but Carlton took it much further than anyone else.

Lots of teams have tanked for a year or even two but again the Blues have outdone the rest of the comp.

If there is any underhand way of gaining an advantage, the Blues will make sure they do it better than anybody else.

However I suspect the Blues will finally be really trying to win again this year.

 

[blue harvest]

Thanks for answering my question, by not answering my question.

Hawthorn tanked, it's a certified fact.

Look at the last 4 games in each of Hawthorn's celebrated 'tanking' years from 2002 to 2006. Out of those 20 games we won 13.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

Look at the last 4 games in each of Hawthorn's celebrated 'tanking' years from 2002 to 2006. Out of those 20 games we won 13.

I didn't state the players tanked, I stated that the overall club tanked as a part of the youth rebuilding policy.

It's a fact, sorry if it doesn't sit well with you.

 

[blue harvest]

I didn't state the players tanked, I stated that the overall club tanked as a part of the youth rebuilding policy.

It's a fact, sorry if it doesn't sit well with you.

I thought tanking meant losing matches on pupose in order to get better picks in the draft.

We'll have to call it the 'new tanking', where you keep on winning whilst rebuilding your team.

Whatever it is, it sits very well with me.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

I thought tanking meant losing matches on pupose in order to get better picks in the draft.

We'll have to call it the 'new tanking', where you keep on winning whilst rebuilding your team.

Wouldn't trading off quality senior players for younger undeveloped players that have less relative impact, be akin to conceeding games of football even before the ball is bounced?

Whatever it is, it sits very well with me.

And, so it should. It has won your club a premiership and steered it out of stormy financial waters.

 

[coryne]

Wouldn't trading off quality senior players for younger undeveloped players that have less relative impact, be akin to conceeding games of football even before the ball is bounced?

I would actually call it facing reality (the Hawks wern't going to win a premiership with those players), making the hard calls and rebuilding the club .......... I have a GREAT amount of respect for what the Hawks did. Instead of insisting that their list was close to a premiership and making short term recruitments to get them into the finals (ala Richmond) they bit the bullet, made some hard calls, found some sucker clubs who were interested in some senior players and stockpiled a group of young, talented players. High risk but high reward.

God if clubs started offering some rd 1 or 2 picks for Stevens, Scotland, Thornton, Carazzo, Fisher, Russel etc (3rd rd picks for the last too), (possibly even Fev who would probably attract AT LEAST a HIGH 1st rd and a 2nd rd pick, possibly x2 1st rounders) then I would have hoped that the club took the picks and run knowing that the GC17 is coming into the comp in 2010. Sure we may have stagnated/gone backwards again this year but next year and the years to come (when we will be pressing for premierships and the older players will probably be playing lesser roles in the side/retired) we would have the squad to do some SERIOUS damage. (not saying that we don't already but lets face it, Hawks and Cats will probably dominate the comp again this year ...........)

To me trading senior players for some short term pain but long term gain isn't tanking ............ Then again, I go for Carlton, so you will probably just put that down to Carlton's "tanking culture", what ever that is.

 

[Mario the Lothario]

I would actually call it facing reality (the Hawks wern't going to win a premiership with those players), making the hard calls and rebuilding the club .......... I have a GREAT amount of respect for what the Hawks did. Instead of insisting that their list was close to a premiership and making short term recruitments to get them into the finals (ala Richmond) they bit the bullet, made some hard calls, found some sucker clubs who were interested in some senior players and stockpiled a group of young, talented players. High risk but high reward.

God if clubs started offering some rd 1 or 2 picks for Stevens, Scotland, Thornton, Carazzo, Fisher, Russel etc (3rd rd picks for the last too), (possibly even Fev who would probably attract AT LEAST a HIGH 1st rd and a 2nd rd pick, possibly x2 1st rounders) then I would have hoped that the club took the picks and run knowing that the GC17 is coming into the comp in 2010. Sure we may have stagnated/gone backwards again this year but next year and the years to come (when we will be pressing for premierships and the older players will probably be playing lesser roles in the side/retired) we would have the squad to do some SERIOUS damage. (not saying that we don't already but lets face it, Hawks and Cats will probably dominate the comp again this year ...........)

To me trading senior players for some short term pain but long term gain isn't tanking ............ Then again, I go for Carlton, so you will probably just put that down to Carlton's "tanking culture", what ever that is.

I agree with a lot of your comments and I can see the wisdom in taking such action, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that a club was prepared to throw matches/entire seasons in order to be stronger down the track.

 

[blue harvest]

Wouldn't trading off quality senior players for younger undeveloped players that have less relative impact, be akin to conceeding games of football even before the ball is bounced?

I can see your point, but it's not the same as trying to lose - which is what tanking is.

You could then argue that 15 teams have tanked by choosing young undeveloped players in the draft ahead of Cousins.

 

[smiddaz123]

Mario Pwned again.

Funnily enough he had nothing to say to it eh.

 

[shiraz]

Whilst I wouldn't want my team to tank, i don't think it is wrong for a team to tank. The problem, if there is one, lies in the rules which make tanking beneficial. Tanking is too beneficial since finishing lower on the ladder provides a discrete concrete benefit which is too large. By using a weighted lottery for draft picks, this could be adjusted. If the system were correctly balanced, then the benefit from from finishing one place higher in terms of club culture and prestige would roughly balance against the likely reward for finishing a place lower in terms of draft quality. At the moment, this is out of balance for teams which finish near the bottom of the ladder.

I think the AFL should address the imbalance.

 

[eldorado]

Opinion is divided as to whether tanking exists.










Andrew Demetriou says it doesn't, everyone else says it does

 

[celtic_pride]

It amazes me how some peanuts think we tanked for 6 years.

Look at the state of our list from 2003 - 2006, it was basically mostly a pseudo VFL list we had out there, with so many recycled players brought in, as a result of the AFL draft restrictions, we were brought down on our knees by the AFL, along with an aging list, we did not delibrately set out to lose games, 2004 is an good case in point, won 10 games on the back of players who only gave the club one or two year's good service.

 

[THE_GUN]

It amazes me how some peanuts think we tanked for 6 years.

Look at the state of our list from 2003 - 2006, it was basically mostly a pseudo VFL list we had out there, with so many recycled players brought in, as a result of the AFL draft restrictions, we were brought down on our knees by the AFL, along with an aging list, we did not delibrately set out to lose games, 2004 is an good case in point, won 10 games on the back of players who only gave the club one or two year's good service.

apart from 3 number 1 picks & judd your list still looks similar to what you just posted.

 

[Johnny Utah #9]

Funny how the Fremantle "Hasleby Game" against Geelong in the final round of 1999 rarely gets mentioned, yet was highly dubious on the tank-o-meter.

 

[The Fireman]

Opinion is divided as to whether tanking exists.










Andrew Demetriou says it doesn't, everyone else says it does

Then you factor in Carlton...just to avoid confusion.

 

[estibador]

Funny how the Fremantle "Hasleby Game" against Geelong in the final round of 1999 rarely gets mentioned, yet was highly dubious on the tank-o-meter.

We had only won 5 games for the entire year and we were playing at a ground that we had never won at.

Given that, I don't know why you think it's so suspicious that we couldn't hold on to a measly 9 point half time lead. The only reason we were even that close was because Geelong couldn't kick straight in the first half.

 

[btdg]

We had only won 5 games for the entire year and we were playing at a ground that we had never won at.

Given that, I don't know why you think it's so suspicious that we couldn't hold on to a measly 9 point half time lead. The only reason we were even that close was because Geelong couldn't kick straight in the first half.

How is that an excuse? Carlton won less than 5 games in 3 straight years, and had injury problems in late 2007, yet apparently we were tanking because we lost 10 straight games...

 

[B&GBlood]

Round 21 2004.

Hawthorn are 16th, Richmond are 15th.

Hawthorn defeat the tigers, 16.13 (109) to 13.8 (86) to avoid the wooden spoon and finish second last, thus throwing away the chance of the number 1 pick.

Of course they tanked princess. You have no idea.

I think you should probably be asking your own club questions on why they overpaid for utter hacks, rather than blame non-existent tanking.

We had one priority pick in the following years, not once did we have #1 pick.

2004 was Schwabs last year, unfortunately we did not have to tank, we were bloody terrible and didn't you all let us know about it.

2005 Clarko's first year he did alot of "list management" and "playing of the the kids" while 'gun' center half forward Nick Holland languished at Box Hill. We finished 14th on 5 wins, I don't believe we got a priority pick that year? We got Ellis @ 3.
Probably classed as tanking by Mario (I hate the Hawks) the Lothario, closest we came to it in my opinion.

2006 Climbed to 11th 9 wins, tanking of course.

2007 Made finals, still tanking of course, so we got Rioli.

2008 No tanking!

 

[gaelictiogar]

The poor old tigers even sucked at tanking ..Carlton not only got the priority pick but avoided the spoon ..poor old tigers won the spoon and still missed the PP .

But got the better player so yah boo sucks.

Anyway who could hope to tank with the masters of the art. No club could better you at your greatest talent. The mastery of Tankton the Gods of the Tank is recognised across the League.

 

[dean33]

How is that an excuse? Carlton won less than 5 games in 3 straight years, and had injury problems in late 2007, yet apparently we were tanking because we lost 10 straight games...

you also retired players without giving them a farewell game even though they were still well into your best 22. Lappin ring any bells?

 

[Blues_Man]

you also retired players without giving them a farewell game even though they were still well into your best 22. Lappin ring any bells?

If we were tanking we would have won the spoon in 2007 ..but we all know who nailed that one

 

[btdg]

you also retired players without giving them a farewell game even though they were still well into your best 22. Lappin ring any bells?

Lappin may have been best 22 in name, but he had struggled all year with injury and form. Lappin was also injured in rounds 18 and 19, brought back into the side in round 20, before being dropped again.

You can argue that he deserved a farewell game, but if he wasn't in our best 22, then doesn't that indicate less tanking?

 

[dean33]

Lappin may have been best 22 in name, but he had struggled all year with injury and form. Lappin was also injured in rounds 18 and 19, brought back into the side in round 20, before being dropped again.

You can argue that he deserved a farewell game, but if he wasn't in our best 22, then doesn't that indicate less tanking?

you can argue till you're blue in the face(no pun intended) but you can't tell me that if carlton weren't tanking they wouldn't of played lappin.

He could have easily replaced someone as I'm sure he was in your best 22 if fit and he was fit after just overcoming his injury, not to mention giving a guy who provided good service to your club a chance of a farewell game. It was tanking clear as day and then you howl libba down when he just admits what everyone already suspected.
No club has rorted the system over the years like caltank, absolute masters at it.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Look through the "Likes/Dislikes" thread and see how many times ANY other side, outside of Carlton, is accused of tanking ..............

If the cap fits...

I'm only mildly critical of Carlton for not doing their best to win, the draft/PP rules encouraged it.