Discussion Random Discussion

[Drake Huggins]

Without getting too much nasty politics into it, how would we get to the point where half the new cars sold are electric cars within a decade ?

1. Right now the vehicle of choice is probably around 50% pickup trucks, mirroring the trend in the USA. Even with small cars people are preferring a Mazda CX3 SUV, with less space than a cheaper, roomier, better to drive, more efficient, better performing Mazda 2.

2. How do we charge electric cars without a reliable power supply? We've had brownouts due to lack of power supply at the sort of time people would like to be putting their cars on charge. Please don't tell me we are going to build a coal power station to charge the electric cars.

Once the price is on parity with petrol versions, no person with even half a brain wouldn't buy an electric car. They'll find a solution. Fossil fuel types will tell you it is impractical. They would, wouldn't they? We've made rich old blokes and greedy Arabs happy for way too long. Renewable energy will eventually be the norm, it's just we can't conceive of it yet because that's not what we are fed on a daily basis. My brother lives in Germany and they plan to be 85 % dependent on renewables by 2025. Similar society. Similar economy. Why can't we do what they're doing? We're in the pockets of the wrong people. Both sides of politics. It's coming, whether we like it or not. Get on board or be left behind. Watershed moment for our country. As Yogi Berra, the baseballer famously said, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it!" Viva electric revolution!

 

[VDS66]

Without getting too much nasty politics into it, how would we get to the point where half the new cars sold are electric cars within a decade ?

1. Right now the vehicle of choice is probably around 50% pickup trucks, mirroring the trend in the USA. Even with small cars people are preferring a Mazda CX3 SUV, with less space than a cheaper, roomier, better to drive, more efficient, better performing Mazda 2.

2. How do we charge electric cars without a reliable power supply? We've had brownouts due to lack of power supply at the sort of time people would like to be putting their cars on charge. Please don't tell me we are going to build a coal power station to charge the electric cars.

Won't happen. It's an aspirational goal.

 

[VDS66]

Once the price is on parity with petrol versions, no person with even half a brain wouldn't buy an electric car. They'll find a solution. Fossil fuel types will tell you it is impractical. They would, wouldn't they? We've made rich old blokes and greedy Arabs happy for way too long. Renewable energy will eventually be the norm, it's just we can't conceive of it yet because that's not what we are fed on a daily basis. My brother lives in Germany and they plan to be 85 % dependent on renewables by 2025. Similar society. Similar economy. Why can't we do what they're doing? We're in the pockets of the wrong people. Both sides of politics. It's coming, whether we like it or not. Get on board or be left behind. Watershed moment for our country. As Yogi Berra, the baseballer famously said, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it!" Viva electric revolution!

I thought Yogi Berra said "smarter than the average car buyer, Booboo"

 

[Drake Huggins]

I thought Yogi Berra said "smarter than the average car buyer, Booboo"

Yogi's mangled quotes are legendary. My favourite is, "Always go to other people's funerals. That way, they'll come to yours."

 

[gringo2011]

Without getting too much nasty politics into it, how would we get to the point where half the new cars sold are electric cars within a decade ?

1. Right now the vehicle of choice is probably around 50% pickup trucks, mirroring the trend in the USA. Even with small cars people are preferring a Mazda CX3 SUV, with less space than a cheaper, roomier, better to drive, more efficient, better performing Mazda 2.

2. How do we charge electric cars without a reliable power supply? We've had brownouts due to lack of power supply at the sort of time people would like to be putting their cars on charge. Please don't tell me we are going to build a coal power station to charge the electric cars.

My father in law is having house built with battery packs in the garage and solar. He's changes cars every few years and he's looking at a new Benz that comes out late in the year. It looks like the price will keep coming down and overseas they are already there. In England they were talking of laying out road ways with convection uploading for electric cars. Don't know if they got it done though.

The reason we don't have people buying smaller cars is because we have no policy. In Germany you can buy as consumptive car as you want, you'll just pay more for rego and taxes. Put a policy inlace tomorrow and smaller economical cars are more popular.

There is no reason wind and solar can't supply enough power if there is a enough of it. Having no policy didn't help because now we didn't build either coal or renewables quickly enough.

 

[gringo2011]

Once the price is on parity with petrol versions, no person with even half a brain wouldn't buy an electric car. They'll find a solution. Fossil fuel types will tell you it is impractical. They would, wouldn't they? We've made rich old blokes and greedy Arabs happy for way too long. Renewable energy will eventually be the norm, it's just we can't conceive of it yet because that's not what we are fed on a daily basis. My brother lives in Germany and they plan to be 85 % dependent on renewables by 2025. Similar society. Similar economy. Why can't we do what they're doing? We're in the pockets of the wrong people. Both sides of politics. It's coming, whether we like it or not. Get on board or be left behind. Watershed moment for our country. As Yogi Berra, the baseballer famously said, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it!" Viva electric revolution!

No one wants to make the economy lag, there is always a bit of pain in the short term and governments aren't big on making brave decisions. Abbott did the double cut on renewables, he killed labour for 10 years so that they are frightened of going there again and then on top of that he killed all policy decisions that could have made us already along way down the path of heading towards renewables.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Once the price is on parity with petrol versions, no person with even half a brain wouldn't buy an electric car. They'll find a solution. Fossil fuel types will tell you it is impractical. They would, wouldn't they? We've made rich old blokes and greedy Arabs happy for way too long. Renewable energy will eventually be the norm, it's just we can't conceive of it yet because that's not what we are fed on a daily basis. My brother lives in Germany and they plan to be 85 % dependent on renewables by 2025. Similar society. Similar economy. Why can't we do what they're doing? We're in the pockets of the wrong people. Both sides of politics. It's coming, whether we like it or not. Get on board or be left behind. Watershed moment for our country. As Yogi Berra, the baseballer famously said, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it!" Viva electric revolution!

I don't necessarily disagree, but i'm a big believer in build it first. Once we have electricity in sufficient capacity so that we don't have rolling blackouts at night ( given that most of our sustainable stuff is solar = daytime ) we can think about charging lots off cars at night.

Right now i think if you did the maths , one of those little 2 cylinder turbo diesels will cost you less per KW than electricity ( with price markup by the guys who simply measure how much you use and recharge it ) even with all the tax on diesel.

Not sure how the 10 year goal is meant to work, only way i could see it working from goverment level is that they tax petrol/diesel a s**t load to motivate everyone away from their Forldon Super Rangerado Monster truck. I certainly don't expect to see multi thousand dollar subsidies on electric cars.

Germany Electricity averages around 30EU cents per KWH
Australia ( Sydney ) around 34 AU cents per KWH
I think an efficient diesel generator is around a 0.2 litre per KWH, around 30c. So driving and efficient little diesel is probably around the same. So economically the Electric solution won't stack up ( with our existing fuel tax ) and as you can see the renewable's overseas aren't that cheap and we already have people bitching about prices. Also , if there's still coal in the grid , it doesn't make sense environmentally to charge electric cars unless we tax the fuel a couple of 100%.

However, if you wanted to go off grid, Solar ,Battery and Generator backup is getting more viable all the time.

There are a lot of breakthroughs required before an electric car is for everyone.
For example even the longest ranges are currently only 500Km. The Hume highway seems to get a fair bit of traffic wanting to go further than that.
The cheaper ones that most of us would aspire to are 100-200Km.
They WILL improve it , but it will remain limited. Like we got better at shooting Rockets into space, but we didn't get to mars yet.
Meanwhile the car makers are already thinking about what they'll be making in ten years time.
Make a breakthrough right now .....maybe it'll make production in 2018.... maybe .


I like the fact that Gringo's father in law at least is putting it in the Garage. Elron's power wall seems like a weird concept to me.

"And here on our wall is our battery - aren't we cool " Nahhh its a fad.

The safety of Lithium round the house worries me a bit too, i kind of wonder when insurance companies will start jacking up the prices for those who have them.

 

[Ephesus]

The RACQ showed that the fuel/running costs for electric vehicles are half that of internal combustion vehicles. It is the expensive up front price that makes them less affordable to run. Importers won't bother bringing them in until there is some interest at the federal level. Australia currently has no policy on ev vehicles.

 

[StFly]

I think i saw the add before it came on , and immediately got to the point you are at now.

Haven't even seen an advert for it, I get my MAFS update at work, which since it's a global tool manufacturer is bloody odd, but, I came to the conclusion that my colleagues are equally as odd and the show is probably scripted, fake, made up gibberish considering the discussions had and so my interest piqued to at least visit the thread on here about it only to see the wonders of what occurs when faces meet plastic and a vacuum.

Also, I beat virgin boy by 2 years by being a lonely bastard, take your badge and shove it caricature you're not even a trope, you're just sad that it was your thing on a TV show.

And yes, I have NFI what his name is, only that the was apparently paired with a nympho.

"And here on our wall is our battery - aren't we cool " Nahhh its a fad.

The safety of Lithium round the house worries me a bit too, i kind of wonder when insurance companies will start jacking up the prices for those who have them.

Except it's not, lithium is relatively safe if it's regulated, the composition is rather stable and charge cycles is not an issue. The issue with most things chemical is heat, and lithiums case is the fact that there's only 3 suppliers globally of the stuff and the flashpoint is only 130C. Flashing is also violent in that when it does crack or become exposed,the fire point is violent and explosive, there is force behind it not dissimilar to tnt. The core issue with lithium as a composition is what surrounds it, as if it basically comes into contact with particles then it will leak and it will burn though anything, metal or otherwise, so in something like a car you may be sitting there then end up like a Flinstone having to run on melted asphalt and metal.

If the container is clean and the heat has somewhere to go or dissipates, lithium ion is as a safe as can be at present, the risk is what you see largely in cell phones and laptops, when miniature and isolated, cheaper off cuts which will happen, since lithium ion is basically sourced from 3 companies globally and everyone puts spin on it, you will get dangerous situations and you will get burns from cheaper alternatives.

Let me put it this way, we've had lithium batteries for a while now, had some DOA and had some electrical issues, by comparison 1-2 cracked interior cells which could have been bad. But; since we know what we're doing, no flame, safety regulations kick in and kills internal connections, breaks the circuits so the heat lessens, the cells cool and crisis is averted. But what are you going to do if this happens on a home circuit? Are you going to be able to change it, is it going to have the same safeguards or like most things are corners going to be cut?

 

[VDS66]

It's not just fuel costs. It's also servicing and repair costs where you save.

But we will have to rely on government to build the recharge infrastructure before it becomes viable.

 

[VDS66]

I don't necessarily disagree, but i'm a big believer in build it first. Once we have electricity in sufficient capacity so that we don't have rolling blackouts at night ( given that most of our sustainable stuff is solar = daytime ) we can think about charging lots off cars at night.

Right now i think if you did the maths , one of those little 2 cylinder turbo diesels will cost you less per KW than electricity ( with price markup by the guys who simply measure how much you use and recharge it ) even with all the tax on diesel.

Not sure how the 10 year goal is meant to work, only way i could see it working from goverment level is that they tax petrol/diesel a s**t load to motivate everyone away from their Forldon Super Rangerado Monster truck. I certainly don't expect to see multi thousand dollar subsidies on electric cars.

Germany Electricity averages around 30EU cents per KWH
Australia ( Sydney ) around 34 AU cents per KWH
I think an efficient diesel generator is around a 0.2 litre per KWH, around 30c. So driving and efficient little diesel is probably around the same. So economically the Electric solution won't stack up ( with our existing fuel tax ) and as you can see the renewable's overseas aren't that cheap and we already have people bitching about prices. Also , if there's still coal in the grid , it doesn't make sense environmentally to charge electric cars unless we tax the fuel a couple of 100%.

However, if you wanted to go off grid, Solar ,Battery and Generator backup is getting more viable all the time.

There are a lot of breakthroughs required before an electric car is for everyone.
For example even the longest ranges are currently only 500Km. The Hume highway seems to get a fair bit of traffic wanting to go further than that.
The cheaper ones that most of us would aspire to are 100-200Km.
They WILL improve it , but it will remain limited. Like we got better at shooting Rockets into space, but we didn't get to mars yet.
Meanwhile the car makers are already thinking about what they'll be making in ten years time.
Make a breakthrough right now .....maybe it'll make production in 2018.... maybe .


I like the fact that Gringo's father in law at least is putting it in the Garage. Elron's power wall seems like a weird concept to me.

"And here on our wall is our battery - aren't we cool " Nahhh its a fad.

The safety of Lithium round the house worries me a bit too, i kind of wonder when insurance companies will start jacking up the prices for those who have them.

I think it isn't only about fuel costs, it's about weening us off fossil fuels.

And once we transition to more renewables, it will cost almost zero.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Haven't even seen an advert for it, I get my MAFS update at work, which since it's a global tool manufacturer is bloody odd, but, I came to the conclusion that my colleagues are equally as odd and the show is probably scripted, fake, made up gibberish considering the discussions had and so my interest piqued to at least visit the thread on here about it only to see the wonders of what occurs when faces meet plastic and a vacuum.

Also, I beat virgin boy by 2 years by being a lonely bastard, take your badge and shove it caricature you're not even a trope, you're just sad that it was your thing on a TV show.

And yes, I have NFI what his name is, only that the was apparently paired with a nympho.



Except it's not, lithium is relatively safe if it's regulated, the composition is rather stable and charge cycles is not an issue. The issue with most things chemical is heat, and lithiums case is the fact that there's only 3 suppliers globally of the stuff and the flashpoint is only 130C. Flashing is also violent in that when it does crack or become exposed,the fire point is violent and explosive, there is force behind it not dissimilar to tnt. The core issue with lithium as a composition is what surrounds it, as if it basically comes into contact with particles then it will leak and it will burn though anything, metal or otherwise, so in something like a car you may be sitting there then end up like a Flinstone having to run on melted asphalt and metal.

If the container is clean and the heat has somewhere to go or dissipates, lithium ion is as a safe as can be at present, the risk is what you see largely in cell phones and laptops, when miniature and isolated, cheaper off cuts which will happen, since lithium ion is basically sourced from 3 companies globally and everyone puts spin on it, you will get dangerous situations and you will get burns from cheaper alternatives.

Let me put it this way, we've had lithium batteries for a while now, had some DOA and had some electrical issues, by comparison 1-2 cracked interior cells which could have been bad. But; since we know what we're doing, no flame, safety regulations kick in and kills internal connections, breaks the circuits so the heat lessens, the cells cool and crisis is averted. But what are you going to do if this happens on a home circuit? Are you going to be able to change it, is it going to have the same safeguards or like most things are corners going to be cut?

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/30615/can-lithium-ion-batteries-explode-or-self-ignite

Lithium generally gets very mad when exposed to water or oxygen. Ruptures will begin a chain reaction that can be difficult to stop (let it burn out). Under stress (rapid charge and discharge) events are accelerated. Commonly before a battery fails it "puffs" and swells. Should the conditions contributing to this stress not be eliminated or decreased the battery will cook and "blow", to use a generic term.

 

[VDS66]

Also need to keep in mind that 2025 doesn't mean that all cars have to be changed to electric.

Existing fossil.moblies will continue to run for at least another 10 years as the mix of cars on the road swings towards the electric.

 

[VDS66]

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/30615/can-lithium-ion-batteries-explode-or-self-ignite

Lithium generally gets very mad when exposed to water or oxygen. Ruptures will begin a chain reaction that can be difficult to stop (let it burn out). Under stress (rapid charge and discharge) events are accelerated. Commonly before a battery fails it "puffs" and swells. Should the conditions contributing to this stress not be eliminated or decreased the battery will cook and "blow", to use a generic term.

So how does that risk compare to sinking oil tanker, exploding rigs and oil spills in general?

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Ugh. Early start and late finish for work. Been going on for a month and they want more.

Also need to keep in mind that 2025 doesn't mean that all cars have to be changed to electric.

Existing fossil.moblies will continue to run for at least another 10 years as the mix of cars on the road swings towards the electric.

There might need to be a bit more development. The folks have a caravan and have a 4WD to act as the towing vehicle. You need a bit of oomph to tow a caravan.

 

[VDS66]

Ugh. Early start and late finish for work. Been going on for a month and they want more.



There might need to be a bit more development. The folks have a caravan and have a 4WD to act as the towing vehicle. You need a bit of oomph to tow a caravan.

True. That's why i believe you will see a mix instead of an absolute.

People will probably keep the towing vehicle at home and only use it for holidays.

 

[gringo2011]

Ugh. Early start and late finish for work. Been going on for a month and they want more.



There might need to be a bit more development. The folks have a caravan and have a 4WD to act as the towing vehicle. You need a bit of oomph to tow a caravan.

NSW has used electric busses for a long time and in Europe and Japan there are electric trucks. Must be a possibility to get something that will tow. Most of the issue is probably in keeping the motor slow so as not to be to jolting.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

NSW has used electric busses for a long time and in Europe and Japan there are electric trucks. Must be a possibility to get something that will tow. Most of the issue is probably in keeping the motor slow so as not to be to jolting.

I don't think NSW have used electric buses in large quantities. Most route service buses are the bog standard Diesel or CNG buses. Even Hybrids haven't exactly taken off.
The big issue going down that path is how the buses get used. A bus can end up doing a stop start type route through to freeway running all in one day.

 

[VDS66]

NSW has used electric busses for a long time and in Europe and Japan there are electric trucks. Must be a possibility to get something that will tow. Most of the issue is probably in keeping the motor slow so as not to be to jolting.

Germany is working on driverless semi trailers that are electric.

Funny that people equate electric to a lack of towing power. Trains do it.

I drove a hybrid Lexus a few years ago. Incredible power.

If they stick motors on each wheel it won't be a problem.

The issue will be off road recharging and battery range.

I know some cars are using kinetic energy from braking to help recharge

The high cost of purchase comes down to economies of scale IMO.

Like renewables, once production ramps up, unit costs will come down.

If anything, given the simplicity of their drive trains, I'm surprised they aren't cheaper. The Chinese are building them in mass quantity.

I'd be happy with one as a daily for work. Even now, I'm looking to downsize to a 1.3 for work. It's just a liability that decreases in value. Probably won't spend heaps either.

 

[Stewart66]

No one wants to make the economy lag, there is always a bit of pain in the short term and governments aren't big on making brave decisions. Abbott did the double cut on renewables, he killed labour for 10 years so that they are frightened of going there again and then on top of that he killed all policy decisions that could have made us already along way down the path of heading towards renewables.

Cut out free travel for politicians who are retired , Commonwealth cars , Lobbyists , politicians pensions that are
10 times the average punter, high wages & rorts , we have corrupt bastards both sides.

Do that we have more than enough.

Funny how Lawyers , Doctors , Bankers & high end mongrels want to get into politics to feather their nest ,
then they retire to sit on the board of some corporation to extract even more coin and ensure none of these
mobs pay tax.

How about this idea if you have worked in high income job reached the age of 50 you can to do the job
for free to help with those Australians less privileged than yourself .....in politics

Any takers .... none ........thought so.

 

[VDS66]

In a different topic.

My kids catch the bus from Mentone.

Today there were inspectors opposite the station.

Apparently nearly 2/3 of the students immediately got off the bus.

And some don't even have a myki card, let alone touch on.

Really makes me question what their parents are about and what sort of values they are teaching their kids.

Role models my arse...

 

[VDS66]

Cut out free travel for politicians who are retired , Commonwealth cars , Lobbyists , politicians pensions that are
10 times the average punter, high wages & rorts , we have corrupt bastards both sides.

Do that we have more than enough.

Funny how Lawyers , Doctors , Bankers & high end mongrels want to get into politics to feather their nest ,
then they retire to sit on the board of some corporation to extract even more coin and ensure none of these
mobs pay tax.

How about this idea if you have worked in high income job reached the age of 50 you can to do the job
for free to help with those Australians less privileged than yourself .....in politics

Any takers .... none ........thought so.

Pauline Hanson just lol at you...

 

[SaintsSeptember]

So how does that risk compare to sinking oil tanker, exploding rigs and oil spills in general?

The oil tanker won't burn your house down.

Don't get me started on shipping. How does the CO2 output of ALL of Australia compare to that of international shipping.
How much will stupid electric cars fix this.
The whole "doing our bit " thing is flawed.
If we burn coal its stuffing up our CO2 per capita. But if we export that coal ( using dirty ships) or import things that were made from power from burning coal, ( using dirty ships ) it keeps us nice and clean.
North Korea are probably the only ones "doing their bit" in a meaningful way.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Ugh. Early start and late finish for work. Been going on for a month and they want more.



There might need to be a bit more development. The folks have a caravan and have a 4WD to act as the towing vehicle. You need a bit of oomph to tow a caravan.

Australia is bloody big ,and you'd be surprised how many people need to drive more than 500km sometimes ( top of the line Tesla range, most cheaper ones, are 100-250km range which is less than my parents house and back ). If you want to tow something its more KW, so more KWH , so less range.
Power is easy, its the bloody batteries. Trucks could be easy , just use a B Double, the back trailer can be the battery pack. You could unhitch it at Golbourn for a fresh one like a stage coach.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Germany is working on driverless semi trailers that are electric.
Lots of people get research grants for lots off stuff. German business men routinely use long distance taxi's instead of their very good rail system, because its more prestigious. ( Having used both i prefer the comfort of their modern, comfortable clean trains ). Germany are not the be all and end all, though they like to think they are. I deal with a German company who buy goods in containers from Spain, ship them by truck to Holland , then by boat through the Suez to Australia. Saves a couple of dollars somehow. The efficiency of trucks is only the small picture in global efficiency.
They have convoy trucks under trial right now. Driverless conventionally powered trucks that convoy behind a truck in front with a trailer. Mostly about saving money on truck drivers of course. With Electric ones I think range would be an issue in Australia, unless a staging system could be used. As stated we need a power grid to handle it BEFORE we get the electrics.

Funny that people equate electric to a lack of towing power. Trains do it.
Agreed. But they don't normally carry batteries. Either overhead power, powered rail, or diesel electric ( Hybrid ).

I drove a hybrid Lexus a few years ago. Incredible power.
Electric engines have a very high low speed torque.

If they stick motors on each wheel it won't be a problem.
Depending on the power you need to get out it may or may not be feasible. Car wheels/motors are constrained by size, and don't forget that your wheel is not suspended. Every pothole will be felt very hard through the motor, meaning it needs to be built like a brick shithouse.

The issue will be off road recharging and battery range.
Agree

I know some cars are using kinetic energy from braking to help recharge
Agree

The high cost of purchase comes down to economies of scale IMO.
Somewhat but not all. You'd be shocked to know how little it costs to make a conventional car engine.

Like renewables, once production ramps up, unit costs will come down.

If anything, given the simplicity of their drive trains, I'm surprised they aren't cheaper. The Chinese are building them in mass quantity.

I'd be happy with one as a daily for work. Even now, I'm looking to downsize to a 1.3 for work. It's just a liability that decreases in value. Probably won't spend heaps either.

Yeah for commuter would be great , but how is the electricity generated? Coal?
We bought a Honda with the 1.4 direct injection turbo engine. Amazingly frugal and bloody nice to drive. Very happy buying that class of car optioned right up, rather than the old "bigger is better" mentality. Good space inside it anyway. ( a lot of SUV's have the same space as an equivalent car, only advantage is you can see past the SUV in front of you , downside , heavier , less fuel efficient ).
I think its the Ford Festiva that has a 3 cylinder direct injection diesel that's one of the best. Also good to drive. Though i don't know that i'd recommend getting one.
To me if everyone made those sort of choices it would help the environment a lot. Overseas countries tax engines above a certain size. That sucks because engine size is becoming less relevant. But you could assign a carbon rating and tax vehicles accordingly.
Half the new car sales are actually pickup trucks, and they don't all need them. Bogan dad sold the Commodore and got something even worse.