Discussion Random Discussion

[gringo2011]

I was in town yesterday with my camera. With a bit of editing I'm quite pleased with some of the results:

That second train down looks ancient.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

That second train down looks ancient.

It is. Part of Steamrail's preserved fleet of trains.

 

[CursingFijian]

Bush fires are part of life for Australians especially those living in rural areas.

It’s opportunistic imo for anyone to trot out climate change, at this stage we still have a summer to get through and people affected by the fires need help not political point scoring.

Having said that it’s an unusual year with some worrying weather, parts of the continent are usually dry including south east QLD and Brisbane. It’s also been clear to anyone who’s been around for a while that the weather has changed.

Also the UN are kidding themselves, major emitters get to continue to increase their emissions and we get to pay them large sums of money, no thanks.

Here is an article from the Australian Bureau of Meteorology dated 09th September which basically forecast high temperature and poor rainfall across the eastern states due to a very rare occurrence where South Pole wind currents actually reverse due to a phenomenon called ‘sudden stratospheric warming’. The article actually predicts a spike in fire threats.

Putting aside Australia’s lack of commitment to global targets surrounding the fight to slow global warming; but how disconnected is our executive branch from our scientific community when in the face of this forecast from our own official forecaster we actually reduce the resources for fighting fire.

Honestly, Australians need to get a lot more energised about holding their politicians to account.

The air above Antarctica is suddenly getting warmer – here's what it means for Australia

Everything NSW fire services could have bought if their budget wasn’t cut

While Scott Morrison offers thoughts and prayers to bushfire victims, the NSW Liberal Party has cut tens of millions from state fire services.

www.crikey.com.au

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Here is an article from the Australian Bureau of Meteorology dated 09th September which basically forecast high temperature and poor rainfall across the eastern states due to a very rare occurrence where South Pole wind currents actually reverse due to a phenomenon called ‘sudden stratospheric warming’. The article actually predicts a spike in fire threats.

Putting aside Australia’s lack of commitment to global targets surrounding the fight to slow global warming; but how disconnected is our executive branch from our scientific community when in the face of this forecast from our own official forecaster we actually reduce the resources for fighting fire.

Honestly, Australians need to get a lot more energised about holding their politicians to account.

The air above Antarctica is suddenly getting warmer – here's what it means for Australia

Everything NSW fire services could have bought if their budget wasn’t cut

While Scott Morrison offers thoughts and prayers to bushfire victims, the NSW Liberal Party has cut tens of millions from state fire services.

www.crikey.com.au

I agree CF. There is all the emotional and political stuff surrounding global warnings, but when we ignore a plain old fashioned forecast, its just dumb.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

If theoretically I was going to attend a conference in Melbourne in March and stick around for the game against west coast on the 29th at Marvel, would Docklands be a good place to stay?? Are there plenty of pubs and places to visit walking distance????
Where would be the best place to stay if not docklands????
Would anyone want to catch up for a coldie and go to the game with me so I don’t ha e to go by myself?????
That last bit reads a bit sad doesn’t it.

 

[Yawkey way]

Here is an article from the Australian Bureau of Meteorology dated 09th September which basically forecast high temperature and poor rainfall across the eastern states due to a very rare occurrence where South Pole wind currents actually reverse due to a phenomenon called ‘sudden stratospheric warming’. The article actually predicts a spike in fire threats.

Putting aside Australia’s lack of commitment to global targets surrounding the fight to slow global warming; but how disconnected is our executive branch from our scientific community when in the face of this forecast from our own official forecaster we actually reduce the resources for fighting fire.

Honestly, Australians need to get a lot more energised about holding their politicians to account.

The air above Antarctica is suddenly getting warmer – here's what it means for Australia

Everything NSW fire services could have bought if their budget wasn’t cut

While Scott Morrison offers thoughts and prayers to bushfire victims, the NSW Liberal Party has cut tens of millions from state fire services.

www.crikey.com.au

I think we take emergency services and bushfires very seriously.

We had a royal commission into the black Saturday fires, it’s not as though the states and federal government don’t do what they can. I’m sure the relevant authorities were well aware it was going to be a very bad year but people are simply misinformed if they think we can just click our fingers ramp up the funding and that’s the problem solved.

The size of the country, the nature of the flora and the causes of the fires all make it a virtual certainty that in any given year one part of the country or usually multiple areas will have a severe fire threat. It’s NSW at present with a smoke chocked Sydney providing a perfect backdrop for sensationalist headlines that are picked up around the globe. Often with little understanding but an agenda to push it’s just too good to pass up and so we have the current hysteria we’re seeing.






I was working for the state government when this rolled into Melbourne back in February 1983. I was at the back of a building opposite the treasury gardens down the back looking down the Yarra when I saw this. It was like a scene from Independence Day, welcome to an Australian summer.

Very interesting articles thanks for the links, by the time the bureau released that I’m not sure if there would have been anything the relevant authorities could have done. Fascinating stuff though, my eldest did a minor in atmospheric science I’m sure he’ll be interested to read the article.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm old enough to have observed it a few times now.

We have horrific bushfires, the forests have been left in an overgrown state, and the fires run out of control.

After the fires the government do what they can, they do back burning, they bring in new regulations and services etc etc etc.
Time goes by.
Bushfire precautions become "unfashionable" and funding is cut, and precautions are over-ridden by other priorities.
Then we have the fires again.

People are stupid.
If one person lived on the edge of Mount Vesuvius , he'd be an idiot. But because 600 000 people are there, its OK.

-----
Moving on.
How are you meant to get rid of old timber, not fit for recycling ( not on the subject of "treated timber ").
Ground fill is bad apparently.
There are places that burn it for energy.

But wait. Timber is actually stored carbon. The longer we can keep it in the form of timber ( it will rot and release CO2 eventually ) the more CO2 is kept out of the atmosphere. Why is it bad to put it in the ground?.

 

[gringo2011]

I'm old enough to have observed it a few times now.

We have horrific bushfires, the forests have been left in an overgrown state, and the fires run out of control.

After the fires the government do what they can, they do back burning, they bring in new regulations and services etc etc etc.
Time goes by.
Bushfire precautions become "unfashionable" and funding is cut, and precautions are over-ridden by other priorities.
Then we have the fires again.

People are stupid.
If one person lived on the edge of Mount Vesuvius , he'd be an idiot. But because 600 000 people are there, its OK.

-----
Moving on.
How are you meant to get rid of old timber, not fit for recycling ( not on the subject of "treated timber ").
Ground fill is bad apparently.
There are places that burn it for energy.

But wait. Timber is actually stored carbon. The longer we can keep it in the form of timber ( it will rot and release CO2 eventually ) the more CO2 is kept out of the atmosphere. Why is it bad to put it in the ground?.

It's not as simple as that. Catastrophic fire has usually happened because there hasn't been smaller fires to clear out fuel. People moving into the bush don't want fires near towns so we live in this perpetual stand off. Burn offs can't get done because the conditions in spring are not optimal now on top of that.

BBC Earth | Environment, Climate Change, AI, Food, Health, Social, & Technology

As we face the world’s greatest environmental challenges, BBC Earth brings you solutions in psychology, food, climate change, health, social trends, and technology that can make the world a more sustainable place.

www.bbc.com

 

[Yawkey way]

I'm old enough to have observed it a few times now.

We have horrific bushfires, the forests have been left in an overgrown state, and the fires run out of control.

After the fires the government do what they can, they do back burning, they bring in new regulations and services etc etc etc.
Time goes by.
Bushfire precautions become "unfashionable" and funding is cut, and precautions are over-ridden by other priorities.
Then we have the fires again.

People are stupid.
If one person lived on the edge of Mount Vesuvius , he'd be an idiot. But because 600 000 people are there, its OK.

-----
Moving on.
How are you meant to get rid of old timber, not fit for recycling ( not on the subject of "treated timber ").
Ground fill is bad apparently.
There are places that burn it for energy.

But wait. Timber is actually stored carbon. The longer we can keep it in the form of timber ( it will rot and release CO2 eventually ) the more CO2 is kept out of the atmosphere. Why is it bad to put it in the ground?.

Don’t log old growth Forrest’s and plant more tress because that’s great for storing and reducing carbon in the atmosphere.

Sounds great until it’s left unmanaged and a fire rips through it.

 

[gringo2011]

I'm old enough to have observed it a few times now.

We have horrific bushfires, the forests have been left in an overgrown state, and the fires run out of control.

After the fires the government do what they can, they do back burning, they bring in new regulations and services etc etc etc.
Time goes by.
Bushfire precautions become "unfashionable" and funding is cut, and precautions are over-ridden by other priorities.
Then we have the fires again.

People are stupid.
If one person lived on the edge of Mount Vesuvius , he'd be an idiot. But because 600 000 people are there, its OK.

-----
Moving on.
How are you meant to get rid of old timber, not fit for recycling ( not on the subject of "treated timber ").
Ground fill is bad apparently.
There are places that burn it for energy.

But wait. Timber is actually stored carbon. The longer we can keep it in the form of timber ( it will rot and release CO2 eventually ) the more CO2 is kept out of the atmosphere. Why is it bad to put it in the ground?.

I'm storing timber in the ground rather than burning it. We used the trunks to stabilise the erosion by ramming them into the ground and letting soil backlog behind them. It works well. Black Saturday caused a lot of erosion once trees were gone. We have tonnes of black wattle that grew in incredible amounts after the fires.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It's not as simple as that. Catastrophic fire has usually happened because there hasn't been smaller fires to clear out fuel. People moving into the bush don't want fires near towns so we live in this perpetual stand off. Burn offs can't get done because the conditions in spring are not optimal now on top of that.

BBC Earth | Environment, Climate Change, AI, Food, Health, Social, & Technology

As we face the world’s greatest environmental challenges, BBC Earth brings you solutions in psychology, food, climate change, health, social trends, and technology that can make the world a more sustainable place.

www.bbc.com

Not sure that the American forests are relevant to ours.

 

[gringo2011]

Don’t log old growth Forrest’s and plant more tress because that’s great for storing and reducing carbon in the atmosphere.

Sounds great until it’s left unmanaged and a fire rips through it.

Old growth actually stays good because the alpha trees stay alive and the small crap gets taken out. Some burning is good, massive fire fronts are bad. Aussie bush needs fire regeneration. The worst is when you have small crap after intense logging, the fires burn everything out because you have prolific sapling growth and once that goes through all the top soil washes out and makes it really slow to regenerate.

 

[gringo2011]

Not sure that the American forests are relevant to ours.

Same shit though, a little bit of burnt out forrest isn't a bad thing, forrest fires are normal. Ones where due to extreme climate and extra fuel are not good because it burns intensely and kills everything.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

We still have morons who flick their lit butts out the car windows to start them :/

A couple of summers ago , while stopped at the lights i got out of the car to put my foot on the little grass fire, clearly caused by a butt. It was short grass on a dividing strip, so probably wouldn't have caused anything...but jesus.

Its no co-incidence a lot of grass fires start near roads.

 

[gringo2011]

We still have morons who flick their lit butts out the car windows to start them :/

A couple of summers ago , while stopped at the lights i got out of the car to put my foot on the little grass fire, clearly caused by a butt. It was short grass on a dividing strip, so probably wouldn't have caused anything...but jesus.

Its no co-incidence a lot of grass fires start near roads.

Yeah I remember getting stuck in a grass fire near Ocean Grove and the CFA guy said some moron had flicked a cigarette. It burnt a huge amount of grass that would have been someones stockfeed for the year. Closed the road for about 45 minutes, which was majorly inconvenient for me which is obviously more important.

 

[Yawkey way]

Old growth actually stays good because the alpha trees stay alive and the small crap gets taken out. Some burning is good, massive fire fronts are bad. Aussie bush needs fire regeneration. The worst is when you have small crap after intense logging, the fires burn everything out because you have prolific sapling growth and once that goes through all the top soil washes out and makes it really slow to regenerate.

Exactly, there was a recommendation to double the cycle from 40 to 80 years etc as part of a range of measures relating to logging.

Things go badly when there’s no management, back burning etc. You can’t just ignore the problems but it’s delusional of people to think we have a fix for everything. Back burning has its own problems, the timing and conditions are crucial, a small but not insignificant number of exercises end up out of control.

 

[CursingFijian]

I think we take emergency services and bushfires very seriously.

We had a royal commission into the black Saturday fires, it’s not as though the states and federal government don’t do what they can. I’m sure the relevant authorities were well aware it was going to be a very bad year but people are simply misinformed if they think we can just click our fingers ramp up the funding and that’s the problem solved.

The size of the country, the nature of the flora and the causes of the fires all make it a virtual certainty that in any given year one part of the country or usually multiple areas will have a severe fire threat. It’s NSW at present with a smoke chocked Sydney providing a perfect backdrop for sensationalist headlines that are picked up around the globe. Often with little understanding but an agenda to push it’s just too good to pass up and so we have the current hysteria we’re seeing.

View attachment 791120


View attachment 791121

I was working for the state government when this rolled into Melbourne back in February 1983. I was at the back of a building opposite the treasury gardens down the back looking down the Yarra when I saw this. It was like a scene from Independence Day, welcome to an Australian summer.

Very interesting articles thanks for the links, by the time the bureau released that I’m not sure if there would have been anything the relevant authorities could have done. Fascinating stuff though, my eldest did a minor in atmospheric science I’m sure he’ll be interested to read the article.

I get it. Or at least I think I do. Bush fires are an integral part of the Australian landscape and have been since time immemorial. And it's hard fighting bush fires in Australia due to our vastness and rugged terrain. But I still think you're letting the politicians off lightly. There are a number of factors surrounding bushfires that most experts agree on:

1. Bush fire season is lengthening. Substantially so. Which greatly reduces the opportunity to implement strategies like fuel reduction.
2. Bush fire conditions are growing increasingly more dangerous every year. It is becoming harder and more dangerous to fight bush fires when they ignite in Australia.
3. The cost of fire fighting is increasing as a result of the burgeoning bush fire season, and it's getting harder to share resources when fires are being fought in every state.

So how does less money and resources for fire fighters help?

And when you do take backward step, a few deep breaths and ask yourself why is this happening and how can I prevent it then you inevitably end up in a conversation about the climate. We need to remember that Abbott and his cronies crushed the Climate Commission in 2013 on the pretext it would save half a million dollars a year. On their very first day in office no less. Nothing to do with big business. No sir. How could you even think that?

Are we reaping what we sow? Or is this all swings and roundabouts and we'll be all lapping it up when the easier times come around again soon?

I'm on the side of most young people. And that is, I believe the science that is telling us its all going to get worse and it's going to get even harder and more expensive. So lets not worry about whether we get it perfectly right or not; we just need climate action now on multiple fronts.

 

[Yawkey way]

Yeah I remember getting stuck in a grass fire near Ocean Grove and the CFA guy said some moron had flicked a cigarette. It burnt a huge amount of grass that would have been someones stockfeed for the year. Closed the road for about 45 minutes, which was majorly inconvenient for me which is obviously more important.

A frightening number of fires are deliberately lit or classified as suspicious let alone the accidental acts of stupidity.

 

[gringo2011]

Exactly, there was a recommendation to double the cycle from 40 to 80 years etc as part of a range of measures relating to logging.

Things go badly when there’s no management, back burning etc. You can’t just ignore the problems but it’s delusional of people to think we have a fix for everything. Back burning has its own problems, the timing and conditions are crucial, a small but not insignificant number of exercises end up out of control.

We have signed the papers for a back burn through our property that backs on to state forrest/water catchment on 2 sides. They were going to do it 2 years ago and put in containment breaks and cut access tracks but they only have certain windows. Conditions haven't been ideal for both years. By the time they get ready to find ideal weather they will need to re cut the breaks. It sounds like greenness are stopping breaks but it's actually the climate that's holding things up. Spring is ideal but you don't want wind and you want some wet so it burns green. Also want 2 weeks of even weather.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I get it. Or at least I think I do. Bush fires are an integral part of the Australian landscape and have been since time immemorial. And it's hard fighting bush fires in Australia due to our vastness and rugged terrain. But I still think you're letting the politicians off lightly. There are a number of factors surrounding bushfires that most experts agree on:

1. Bush fire season is lengthening. Substantially so. Which greatly reduces the opportunity to implement strategies like fuel reduction.
2. Bush fire conditions are growing increasingly more dangerous every year. It is becoming harder and more dangerous to fight bush fires when they ignite in Australia.
3. The cost of fire fighting is increasing as a result of the burgeoning bush fire season, and it's getting harder to share resources when fires are being fought in every state.

So how does less money and resources for fire fighters help?

And when you do take backward step, a few deep breaths and ask yourself why is this happening and how can I prevent it then you inevitably end up in a conversation about the climate. We need to remember that Abbott and his cronies crushed the Climate Commission in 2013 on the pretext it would save half a million dollars a year. On their very first day in office no less. Nothing to do with big business. No sir. How could you even think that?

Are we reaping what we sow? Or is this all swings and roundabouts and we'll be all lapping it up when the easier times come around again soon?

I'm on the side of most young people. And that is, I believe the science that is telling us its all going to get worse and it's going to get even harder and more expensive. So lets not worry about whether we get it perfectly right or not; we just need climate action now on multiple fronts.

It's GLOBAL warming.
Abbot and his cronies did not have the power to make us reap what we sowed.
Because it GLOBAL ...
Australia 1%..
Stopping 100% of Australia's emissions would stop bush fires as much as you pissing on them.

So at best Abbott and his cronies missed an opportunity to make some sort of international statement that may or may not have produced any tangible results at all, depending how much you rate Australia as an international influencer.
Probably if you mentioned Abbott to Xi Jinping , he'd scratch his head for a bit before remembering that weird guy that wore small swimming outfit int the hotel pool at the summit.

Meanwhile the GLOBAL emissions will be more next year than they were last year, and not because of Australia.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

A frightening number of fires are deliberately lit or classified as suspicious let alone the accidental acts of stupidity.

Near where i live , a housing estate backing onto farmland had a guy with a grinder working on a really windy total fire ban.
The farmer had his grass way too long, and it took off up a hill with the wind like a rocket.

So now on high fire risk days the school ( which is not in a high risk area IMO ) ask their students to stay home.
Meanwhile in other suburbs the risk is just as great, they just didn't have an idiot with a grinder on the right day.

But the no brain approach is always best, lets assess fire risk by suburb name cos its easy.

 

[CursingFijian]

It's GLOBAL warming.
Abbot and his cronies did not have the power to make us reap what we sowed.
Because it GLOBAL ...
Australia 1%..
Stopping 100% of Australia's emissions would stop bush fires as much as you pissing on them.

So at best Abbott and his cronies missed an opportunity to make some sort of international statement that may or may not have produced any tangible results at all, depending how much you rate Australia as an international influencer.
Probably if you mentioned Abbott to Xi Jinping , he'd scratch his head for a bit before remembering that weird guy that wore small swimming outfit int the hotel pool at the summit.

Meanwhile the GLOBAL emissions will be more next year than they were last year, and not because of Australia.

I'm well aware of your position on the matter SaintsSeptember . I think we're 1% of the problem so we owe it to future Australians to be 1% of the solution.

 

[Yawkey way]

I get it. Or at least I think I do. Bush fires are an integral part of the Australian landscape and have been since time immemorial. And it's hard fighting bush fires in Australia due to our vastness and rugged terrain. But I still think you're letting the politicians off lightly. There are a number of factors surrounding bushfires that most experts agree on:

1. Bush fire season is lengthening. Substantially so. Which greatly reduces the opportunity to implement strategies like fuel reduction.
2. Bush fire conditions are growing increasingly more dangerous every year. It is becoming harder and more dangerous to fight bush fires when they ignite in Australia.
3. The cost of fire fighting is increasing as a result of the burgeoning bush fire season, and it's getting harder to share resources when fires are being fought in every state.

So how does less money and resources for fire fighters help?

And when you do take backward step, a few deep breaths and ask yourself why is this happening and how can I prevent it then you inevitably end up in a conversation about the climate. we need to remember that Abbott and his cronies crushed the Climate Commission in 2013 on the pretext it would save half a million dollars a year. On their very first day in office no less. Nothing to do with big business. No sir. How could you even think that?

Are we reaping what we sow? Or is this all swings and roundabouts and we'll be all lapping it up when the easier times come around again soon?

I'm on the side of most young people. And that is, I believe the science that is telling us its all going to get worse and it's going to get even harder and more expensive. So lets not worry about whether we get it perfectly right or not; we just need climate action now on multiple fronts.

We’re taking action, coal is down, Brown coal will continue to decrease and renewables are increasing in terms of our energy production.

There are god knows how many proposals, some already have approval and funding some probably won’t pass muster like the second bass straight link to Tasmania. I think people simply push back against the more extreme and frankly meaningless woke demands.

We’ve just had an election and climate change wasn’t on the agenda for the majority of Australians let alone a top three issue. I see suggestions including from pacific leaders that we shouldn’t open any more coal mines etc, who are we to tell other countries what to do, I’m sorry but that’s a good recipe for a war or two.

I’ll tell you what I rarely read and that’s the population explosion that’s taken place, that’s a huge driver of omissions. The UN promised people money, loads of other people’s money and now it’s under threat some people are becoming a bit shrill.

If and when sea levels start rising rapidly then we’re all going under without massive investment we’ll all be displaced. Australia’s costal cities, New York, London etc. I’ll never understand how this ends up framed as the haves and have nots, there’s only one planet and we’re all on it. I did see that Australia didn’t address the issue of resettlement in the event of catastrophic climate change but I understand the position they’ve taken. It’s putting the cart before the horse and potentially opens up all sorts of claims.

Personally I have great faith in new technology, I see snippets here and there of discovery’s and breakthroughs that if they come to fruition will solve our energy problems.

Anyway all of my friends have retired including a former emergency services commissioner, a very senior deputy director of immigration etc. baby boomers are on the way out except for a fairly comfortable retirement for many we’re not making a lot of decisions and those that are soon won’t be. I’ll watch on with interest at how the next generation of movers a shakers go, I suspect you’ll see little change.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm well aware of your position on the matter SaintsSeptember . I think we're 1% of the problem so we owe it to future Australians to be 1% of the solution.

That's fine , and i can accept and respect that attitude, though i consider you are not doing anything specific for Australians, because its GLOBAL. That's a fact. The planet has only one atmosphere. If you are helping anyone , you are helping everyone.

I can't accept the opinion that "if Tony Abbot had done "THIS " or Kevin Rudd had done "THAT" or if we all voted for Greens then we would not have this bush fire problem.
Its total fantasy. Do the maths.

'Brutal news': global carbon emissions jump to all-time high in 2018

Rapid cuts needed to protect billions of people from rising emissions due to increase in use of cars and coal

www.theguardian.com

 

[Joffaboy]

I'm well aware of your position on the matter SaintsSeptember . I think we're 1% of the problem so we owe it to future Australians to be 1% of the solution.

We are about 4% of the problem if you count exports.