Discussion Random Discussion

[pebblesofsand]

The wind change saved Omeo, fire was barrelling across looked gone for all money 10 mins maybe a bit more.
Fire reports for top of the Gap were wrong, same for Swifts Creek - Ensay back road.
Ensay people very angry, fire fighters every where then the wind change came and they were abandoned, fires left to a lot of old men in shitty old 4wds and slip ons while the best equipment buggered off because it was too dangerous.
Me and mine are doing fine, lots of burnt leaves but nothing more.
Old mate at Brookville fire got ti his back yard but local boys put it out.
Need lots of rain.
How are you coping?

Nah all good down here. Spent most of the week helping people prepare, a fair bit of counseling and convincing people to leave who were I thought didn't really understand the potential risks.

Biggest problem for Lakes will be the enormous economic impacts on the town down the track. Basically every tourist and hell of a lot of residents evacuated and so many businesses will be screwed through losing their entire summer trade which essentially keeps them viable for the year.

In the end though we've got off lightly compared to lots.

 

[gringo2011]

What the prescribed burn window closing means as we go into peak fire season

With only 30 per cent of prescribed, or controlled, burns carried out in Victoria, and a dry spring forecast, how are fire preparations looking?

www.abc.net.au

 

[Kildonan]

It goes back to the period between March and June last year, Bergholt. Green activists actively stopped burn off's by chaining themselves to trees and physically preventing the planned management actions. Some on here deny this. Typical.

They should check the photographs and videos taken by the Bairnsdale local rag and TV stations and put on the front pages and nightly news. They should also chat to the local firies, who tell us that because of these actions and government inaction for fear of upsetting these fools, only 9 of 375 burns went ahead.

I know there are a number of factors involved and it's complicated but the first rule of bushfire fighting is to reduce fuel loads. No fuel, no fire.

The other nonsense pedalled by the Greens is that climate change is largely to blame. Unfortunately for them, it is now officially estimated that over 80% of the fires burning in Victoria have been deliberately lit. Just as has been the case in the past. 16 people have been charged so far and there'll be more to come, once investigations are completed. Disgraceful really. There should be a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years imprisonment for any arsonist who starts a bushfire.

I know that''s a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, but it will at least reduce rates of recidivism. Around 70% of arsonists continue lighting fires, even after arrest and imprisonment. Better methods of detection are a greater deterrent than heavy penalties. The belief you will be caught offending is the most effective deterrent.

And please, I know there are a lot of intelligent and educated people on this site, but there seems to be a whiff of condescension in all of this directed at "working class bogans" who apparently don't understand the complexities and issues.

What they do understand is the reality of losing lives, property and their lifestyles. Unlike the superior inner city intellectuals, activists and various hangers on who deride them, they have been forced to suffer the consequences of government incompetence, idiotic Greens' policies that place even the plight of animals ahead of exposing humans to this risk, and misinformation. There is a lot of shock and anger atm. Understandably so. The locals, including farmers and the local aboriginal community seem to have a pretty strong grasp about what the causes are. Their input has been largely ignored for years, in deference to advice given by activists, academics and bureaucrats.

The scale of suffering in this is unprecedented in this state's history. The true horror will only be realised in the aftermath. If you want to help, donate your time or money. It would be most appreciated. Even by the working class bogans.

Official stats show only 40% fires are deliberately lit. I know that is still way too much, but it doesn't help your credibility when you exaggerate.

A colleague of mine was a volunteer firefighter in Victoria (Geelong region) some time ago. He was horrified to discover that some of these volunteers were attracted to the role because of their fascination with fires. He left to move to Queensland, but before he left he reported several volunteers for their suspicious behaviour. The official he reported them to already knew, but felt that these people could do a lot of good if they were managed properly. This was a long time ago and conditions were a lot less threatening back then.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Geez, I love smashing this little green uptopia some want to live in.

Unfortunately our mate Johnnyrayflamingo isn’t one to reply to others except with partisan crap - he’s got his brain turned off when he thinks about this stuff. On some things he’s right, on some he’s wrong, but impossible to respect him because he doesn’t engage in polite rational discussion.

Negative.

People get very defensive on here when their little green utopian beliefs about the bushfires and other matters, and their love of the Guardian newspaper gets challenged.

Its a shame you can't see how far left wing biased some are on here. Real shame.

But anyway, those hippy w***ers that chained themselves to trees and Comrade Andrews who ignored the threats from the likes of Packham for years should be on the front lines in Victoria and out in the scrub. But...I doubt they would be very welcome or actually any help at all. Typical. Maybe Dan should stay away in his Mulgrave mansion and the hippies keep ordering their vegan salads in Brunswick.

 

[Kildonan]

But anyway, those hippy w***ers that chained themselves to trees and Comrade Andrews who ignored the threats from the likes of Packham for years should be on the front lines in Victoria and out in the scrub. But...I doubt they would be very welcome or actually any help at all. Typical. Maybe Dan should stay away in his Mulgrave mansion and the hippies keep ordering their vegan salads in Brunswick.

You also display another common trait of far right wing extremists - playing the blame game - picking out someone you hate and blaming them for all the problems in the world. Look at your obsession with a few activists who stood up for their beliefs and protected a stand of trees. In your mind these people have caused the build up of combustible load over millions of hectares (maybe billions). They haven't. They stopped one burn off in one small area. I don't even recall said protest but it seems that you have projected culpability to all who show concern for protecting our environment and you have taken the opportunity to repeatedly criticise a vast section of the Australian community for the actions of a few activists. Who knows - their action may yet prove to have been justified. I don't know. I am even surer that you don't know because your ideology doesn't take into account facts that don't fit with your preconceived notion of the world.

Othering of people - (they are not in my/our in-group)
Blaming them for all the world's ill - spreading hate
Thinking of people as homogenous entities - dehumanising
Tarring large groups of people with the same brush - combining the above actions.

These are the actions of a bad person.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Geez, I love smashing this little green uptopia some want to live in.


Negative.

People get very defensive on here when their little green utopian beliefs about the bushfires and other matters, and their love of the Guardian newspaper gets challenged.

Its a shame you can't see how far left wing biased some are on here. Real shame.

But anyway, those hippy w***ers that chained themselves to trees and Comrade Andrews who ignored the threats from the likes of Packham for years should be on the front lines in Victoria and out in the scrub. But...I doubt they would be very welcome or actually any help at all. Typical. Maybe Dan should stay away in his Mulgrave mansion and the hippies keep ordering their vegan salads in Brunswick.

You still about??? - I thought you were off researching the answers to my apparently incredibly difficult questions.

C'mon mate - it should be simple for you since apparently you're so across the issue's - but just to make it harder - no spewing of bile or insults - only actual thought out considered responses that address the questions I have asked.

Thanks in advance - I'm heading out for a while - so perhaps maybe something later on the arvo - cheers buddy!!!!

 

[gringo2011]

Geez, I love smashing this little green uptopia some want to live in.


Negative.

People get very defensive on here when their little green utopian beliefs about the bushfires and other matters, and their love of the Guardian newspaper gets challenged.

Its a shame you can't see how far left wing biased some are on here. Real shame.

But anyway, those hippy w***ers that chained themselves to trees and Comrade Andrews who ignored the threats from the likes of Packham for years should be on the front lines in Victoria and out in the scrub. But...I doubt they would be very welcome or actually any help at all. Typical. Maybe Dan should stay away in his Mulgrave mansion and the hippies keep ordering their vegan salads in Brunswick.

Where are the hippies with chains? All I could see from an alarmist lunatic website was an old couple who were locals who liked baby birds. Seriously my sister leads a CFA squad and works for the people who manage burn offs. She's never ever mentioned that there are protesters stopping them doing stuff, she's lived in the country for most of her life and is no lefty. Like most country people she's tough and conservative. I have asked her to check when our property might get burned off and she has said plenty of times that the conditions aren't expected to be right. When they aren't doing management burns they are planning using weather mapping and wind patterns to see when they can light them up.

I have met the DWELP (or what ever they call themselves now) guy that operates burns in our area and call him a few times every winter and we have had plans in place to start fires and they have been called off every year. One time they had trucks ready and had cut a 50 meter wide tree break with a huge bulldozer so that they could protect the riverfront so that it wouldn't get crap into the water supply. If I'd wanted to bring a dozer and run it through the bush it would have required a million permits and environmental impact reports. I don't think my relatives that do burns would have even seen a protester and they really have very few legalities that stop them doing anything since Black Saturday. No politician would let themselves look like they stopped fuel reduction incase a fire takes hold. It just doesn't make sense IMO.


We are surrounded by state park on 3 sides and have been burnt out once so are keen to get it going. The people across the river also want theirs done, the farms around us worry it could catch their properties if it gets into forest. There are several small towns that have bush fringe who also want the burns to happen. It just doesn't ring true that a few hippies override the will of the majority. No hippies would even find where they had burnt. It's remote.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Black Saturday survivor fined for culling trees backs hazard reduction

Liam Sheahan cleared trees and shrub within 100 metres of his home in the hills of central Victoria in 2002 to create a firebreak in case of a blaze. His was the only house to survive Black Saturday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

A classic real world story of where the green lunacy regarding bushfire hazard reduction still exists!

‘How many more lives?’: Firefighter’s plea

As catastrophic fires burn across Queensland and New South Wales — with experts warning that the worst is yet to come on Tuesday — rural firefighter Tyson Smith has issued a heartbreaking plea on Facebook.

www.news.com.au

And from a firie! Don't tell me there is no such thing as green lunacy!

 

[Joffaboy]

 

[CaptainRisky]

How about those who can donate instead of blaming each other , plenty of time for that later

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

No idiot is saying they were all deliberately lit in VIC, NSW and QLD although those horrific firebug mentally ******ed individuals did start many.

What a load of climate change propaganda BS Sticks.

 

[Moral Decay]

Packham does talk about other necessary prerequisites to an intense bushfire including a dry environment, wind, and ignition. To be fair he does sound very capable of predicting Bush fire behaviour and what is required to extinguish one.

I think he is a big advocate of prescribed burns and even developed the tech to ignite burns via aviation as far back as the 60’s.

But he is ignoring the causative factors for severe fuel build up, and the impact of global warming in that.

I can tell you that the modelling for fire movement has failed horribly this time around, the fire at Bundar that has done so much damage at Cobungra shouldn't have done anything kicked off in the space of 15 minutes, the fire at Brookville started early Dec and on the 20th we had 52 deg with a hard hot southerly (never seen one before) that should have burned Cassilis right through Omeo and has barely moved in weeks.

To compensate the fire controllers are having to go to the movement of 2003 fires as worst case scenarios. 2003 had days of 40+ temps and driving 100km/h Nth winds, their having to give this info as warnings not much good for 42 deg and 65 km blustery winds. It's this worst case info that we're making decisions on and getting it wrong.

While all sides of politics have a share of blame, none have immunity, state, federal and local, have all made decisions on information that is no longer correct. The modelling and the ideas behind them are defunct.

 

[Moral Decay]

Yeah, where we were burned out last time, it's regenerated 10 times thicker and has a lot more kindling to me. I'm no expert but the black wattle has proliferated and a good percentage get insects in them and die young. They are really hard to cut when they dry and burn super quick and hot on a camp fire. They pour nitrogen into the ground which makes the undergrowth so much thicker. When you get strong wind coming down the hills it sounds like a low flying 747 is close by. If it got lit up it would be like instant flame. Before there was dry logs that were fallen trees but we tended to cut that up and used them as fire wood so I don't see how burn off works. But as I said I'm not a fire expert.

Black Wattle is the natural first growth after a fire and will burn hot and hard when green, grows for 20-40 years acting as mothering trees, dies out breaks down quickly helping slower growers providing shade to young growth too, the difficulty is in knowing what to do that would be different, planning a green moist undergrowth and financing the planting of it.

 

[Drake Huggins]

Official stats show only 40% fires are deliberately lit. I know that is still way too much, but it doesn't help your credibility when you exaggerate.

A colleague of mine was a volunteer firefighter in Victoria (Geelong region) some time ago. He was horrified to discover that some of these volunteers were attracted to the role because of their fascination with fires. He left to move to Queensland, but before he left he reported several volunteers for their suspicious behaviour. The official he reported them to already knew, but felt that these people could do a lot of good if they were managed properly. This was a long time ago and conditions were a lot less threatening back then.

Which official stat's? They haven't even been completed for this disaster. I think you might be the one bending your "facts". It does nothing for your credibility.

How could the figures be complete? It's still going on! Of course Greens and the left never lie, do they. You are all vastly ethically, morally and intellectually superior to the deplorable, the coal miners, farmers and bogans. I'm passing on what I've been told. Quote your source, or don't bother having a crack.

 

[bergholt]

Its a shame you can't see how far left wing biased some are on here. Real shame.

Nah, I never said that. Clearly there's a bunch biased on either side. You're biased, I'm biased, everyone's biased. My issue is that you don't argue the point - you just post dumb diatribes and don't respond to people who try to discuss.

 

[bergholt]

No point arguing sometimes with those that think they are morally superior or don't listen. Oh greenies...no...they never lie or distort the truth for political purposes!

I don't get it. If you're not willing to discuss things reasonably then what are you trying to do in this thread? Is it fun to shout at people and get upset?

 

[gringo2011]

Black Saturday survivor fined for culling trees backs hazard reduction

Liam Sheahan cleared trees and shrub within 100 metres of his home in the hills of central Victoria in 2002 to create a firebreak in case of a blaze. His was the only house to survive Black Saturday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

A classic real world story of where the green lunacy regarding bushfire hazard reduction still exists!

‘How many more lives?’: Firefighter’s plea

As catastrophic fires burn across Queensland and New South Wales — with experts warning that the worst is yet to come on Tuesday — rural firefighter Tyson Smith has issued a heartbreaking plea on Facebook.

www.news.com.au

And from a firie! Don't tell me there is no such thing as green lunacy!

You have always been allowed to clear if you get permits. If everyone just cleared the bush on their own property then we'd have no vegetation. In most country areas you don't need to get permits for 10/50. It means any small stuff with in 50 meters on all sides and any trees with in 10. If you want to clear more you have to get a permit. If you say it's for fire management then they are also very sympathetic. Russell Crows is a normal fence line break, you are allowed a 4 meter fence clearing without a permit. Also in the country they don't tend to police you cutting down trees unless you go nuts and clear fell.

 

[Kildonan]

Which official stat's? They haven't even been completed for this disaster. I think you might be the one bending your "facts". It does nothing for your credibility.

How could the figures be complete? It's still going on! Of course Greens and the left never lie, do they. You are all vastly ethically, morally and intellectually superior to the deplorable, the coal miners, farmers and bogans. I'm passing on what I've been told. Quote your source, or don't bother having a crack.

Most bushfires in south-eastern Australia caused by humans
ABC Science
By Anna Salleh
Posted 11 December 2015 at 9:18 am

Anna quotes research published in a 2015 issue of the International Journal of Wildland Fire (this article is behind a paywall).

The authors of this study gathered official data on more than 113,000 bushfires ignited between 1997 and 2009 in 144 bioregions across New South Wales and Victoria.

Of the fires with a known cause, 47 per cent were due to accidental causes, due to such things as cigarettes, escaped burn-offs and campfires, or sparks from equipment or powerlines.

Forty per cent were deliberately lit and 13 per cent were caused by lightning.

The cause of 31 per cent of fires was undetermined.

 

[Moral Decay]

Nah all good down here. Spent most of the week helping people prepare, a fair bit of counseling and convincing people to leave who were I thought didn't really understand the potential risks.

Biggest problem for Lakes will be the enormous economic impacts on the town down the track. Basically every tourist and hell of a lot of residents evacuated and so many businesses will be screwed through losing their entire summer trade which essentially keeps them viable for the year.

In the end though we've got off lightly compared to lots.

Lakes and Mallacoota will be ok the tourist trades will return, it will take time, but the little places Nowa Nowa, Buchan, Caan River, Wulgulmerang, etc. any of the old timber towns are rooted, there's nothing to rebuild around, Ensay, Cobungra, Tambo Crossing will be okish they're more based on farming communities. Maybe Sarsfield can be rebuilt.

The lesson is of King Lake where properties that backed onto forest and were burned down is these houses won't be rebuilt, insurance will be denied, and thus Councils withdraw building permits, the land becomes unsaleable and an unrealizable asset. Home and contents of 300,000 isn't going to by much of anything anywhere. (Swifts and Ensay excluded).

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

I don't get it. If you're not willing to discuss things reasonably then what are you trying to do in this thread? Is it fun to shout at people and get upset?

Yeah it is.

Anyway, I would be better off debating with a dead gumtree from the bushfires compared to dealing with some in here. They are so entrenched in their greenie utopia world it's unbearable. Thank god the other 95% of the population votes non Green.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah it is.

Anyway, I would be better off debating with a dead gumtree from the bushfires compared to dealing with some in here. They are so entrenched in their greenie utopia world it's unbearable. Thank god the other 95% of the population votes non Green.

You do realise you are extremely biased in a polar opposite way to the people you despise. There doesn't seem to be too many extreme lefty types here to be honest. You are coming across like a closed minded non critical thinking hypocrite.

I don't think anyone thinks that there is one lot that caused the fires except you which makes you sound like a biased fool. The simplistic finger pointing at a group with little power other than inconveniencing traffic while being ridiculed by the greater population is mind numbingly juvenile. A whole lot of factors caused the fires from arsonists, politicians, residents, planners, global warming changing weather conditions, bad luck, people stopping back burning, poor staffing, scientific modelling being inaccurate etc. Also would have helped to invest in a range of fire fighting equipment like our own bombers and extra vehicles and paid regional command centre staff.

I respect your right to comment but you are probably turning more people away from your cause than towards it to be honest.

 

[Kildonan]

Yeah it is.

Anyway, I would be better off debating with a dead gumtree from the bushfires compared to dealing with some in here. They are so entrenched in their greenie utopia world it's unbearable. Thank god the other 95% of the population votes non Green.

Its only 89.6% of the population that votes non Green

2019 Federal Election Results: Party Totals

 

[bergholt]

Anyway, I would be better off debating with a dead gumtree from the bushfires compared to dealing with some in here. They are so entrenched in their greenie utopia world it's unbearable.

As an old boss of mine used to say: "don't bring me problems, bring me solutions". You're not trying too hard on that front right now, pretty toxic for the conversation.

 

[Hubnester]

I must confess I am a climate change denier denier.
Has anyone actually met one in real life?

I figure they must be disinformation agents from Russia or something, sent to divide and weaken a population. Like anti-vaxxers or flat Earthers, right in the face of overwhelming science.

 

[Kildonan]

Garnaut Climate Change Review
In 2007 Professor Ross Garnaut examined the impacts of climate change on the Australian economy, and recommended medium to long-term policies and policy frameworks to improve the prospects for sustainable prosperity. Some observers have remarked that the Garnaut Review would be Australia's version of the Stern Review.[3] A number of forums were held around Australia to engage the public on various issues relating to the Review. The Secretariat to support the Review was based in the Victorian Department of Premier and Cabinet. The final report of the Garnaut Review was delivered on 30 September 2008.

The report indicated that in the absence of a global effort to reduce CO2 emissions, climate change would have severe adverse effects on Australian agriculture and on the natural environment. Irrigation in the Murray-Darling Basin would be severely affected, and in the most adverse scenarios, would cease altogether.

The report was criticised by the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry for the economic impact that reducing greenhouse gas emissions would have.

"Australia’s interest lies in the world adopting a strong and effective position on climate change mitigation. This interest is driven by two realities of Australia’s position relative to other developed countries: our exceptional sensitivity to climate change: and our exceptional opportunity to do well in a world of effective global mitigation. Australia playing its full part in international efforts on climate change can have a positive effect on global outcomes. The direct effects of Australia’s emissions reduction efforts are of secondary importance."

We shouldn't be surprised by the bushfires in Australia. The Government commissioned Garnaut Report of 2008:
"This effect...should be directly observable by 2020"