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[SaintsSeptember]

Sorry but no, Joffa didn't take it there at all - and I would be all over it if anyone did.
Let's not debase the discussion by introducing that as the go-to meme or saying that anyone else was infering it.

Joffa used these words.
" And the English don't matter for this conversation precisely because they aren't indigenous. they came in and stole the land by use of superior military means. They shot the first Australians, they poisoned their drinking holes, they stole and r*ped their women."

How can this not be construed as racial stereotyping?
Some of the English were convicts and certainly would not have had superior military means.
Some of the English were women and probably weren't big on rape.
Arthur Phillip settled Sydney. What was his first official act regarding indigenous Australians?

 

[joop]

How? Explain what is significant about the date.

Like I said I'm not aboriginal so I can't explain it nor would I ever try. But I know that aboriginals find the day offensive due to what happened in the past, what gives you the right to tell them wether or not they can do that?

 

[MacMum]

Saw a good tweet by someone (sorry, not sure who it was. Think it was a retweeted one) who said.....minority protesting about what the country should be like....majority celebrating what it is.

Not one person in this country is responsible for what happened during early settlement days, nor can anyone alive today change what happened back then.

..also heard it reported that the protesters wanted equal rights etc......someone needs to tell them they have the exact same rights we all have....and then some. It is up to them what they do with those rights, as it is for the rest of us, regardless of colour or religion.

This is a brilliant country, a happy country, warts and all. Some people need to appreciate what they actually do have, not whinge about what they don't.

Learn to smile at people, be friendly and it will be returned.

 

[Gangnam Saint]

Joffa used these words.
" And the English don't matter for this conversation precisely because they aren't indigenous. they came in and stole the land by use of superior military means. They shot the first Australians, they poisoned their drinking holes, they stole and r*ped their women."

How can this not be construed as racial stereotyping?
Some of the English were convicts and certainly would not have had superior military means.
Some of the English were women and probably weren't big on rape.
Arthur Phillip settled Sydney. What was his first official act regarding indigenous Australians?

I think it is fair to use the term "English" as a pejorative for the military powers under orders of the crown that came to colonise Australia.
It is not racial stereotyping of the convicts or the indentured servants that were brought here against their will.
That's not a slur against convicts - and nobody genuinely equates them with it.

Not sure that the friendly disposition Arthur Phillip had towards the Eora people really counts.
It's a bit like saying a thief is ok coz he didn't rape and kill your family in the act of robbing your house.

 

[Gangnam Saint]

Saw a good tweet by someone (sorry, not sure who it was. Think it was a retweeted one) who said.....minority protesting about what the country should be like....majority celebrating what it is.

Not one person in this country is responsible for what happened during early settlement days, nor can anyone alive today change what happened back then.

..also heard it reported that the protesters wanted equal rights etc......someone needs to tell them they have the exact same rights we all have....and then some. It is up to them what they do with those rights, as it is for the rest of us, regardless of colour or religion.

This is a brilliant country, a happy country, warts and all. Some people need to appreciate what they actually do have, not whinge about what they don't.

Learn to smile at people, be friendly and it will be returned.

Ah, I don't think a smile and being friendly equates to the reconciliation with a people who have been systematically genocided by successive governments.
A bit like being in receipt of stolen goods unbeknownst to any of us. We all got false title and we are all, in a way, victims.
Now we have to clean up the mess created.
Saying "sorry" just aint gonna cut it unfortunately.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think it is fair to use the term "English" as a pejorative for the military powers under orders of the crown that came to colonise Australia.
It is not racial stereotyping of the convicts or the indentured servants that were brought here against their will.
That's not a slur against convicts - and nobody genuinely equates them with it.

Not sure that the friendly disposition Arthur Phillip had towards the Eora people really counts.
It's a bit like saying a thief is ok coz he didn't rape and kill your family in the act of robbing your house.

I tend to agree with that , but it adds to my confusion about why they are offended by a particular date.

Did the English military sanction the rape of Aboriginals?
Was rape previously unknown among aboriginals?
Would Australia have been better if it was settled in that era by the French?, the Dutch? ( it was not going to remain unsettled we all know that ).

My original response that started all this was the use of the term "Limey's" in a modern context ( to which my tongue in cheek response was the correct word is pommy ).

Again why relate it all to Australia day except as a political stunt?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Ah, I don't think a smile and being friendly equates to the reconciliation with a people who have been systematically genocided by successive governments.
A bit like being in receipt of stolen goods unbeknownst to any of us. We all got false title and we are all, in a way, victims.
Now we have to clean up the mess created.
Saying "sorry" just aint gonna cut it unfortunately.

And here we have it.
So what is going to cut it?

 

[RoundCubic]

Learn to smile at people, be friendly and it will be returned.

What does that even mean

 

[joop]

Saw a good tweet by someone (sorry, not sure who it was. Think it was a retweeted one) who said.....minority protesting about what the country should be like....majority celebrating what it is.

Not one person in this country is responsible for what happened during early settlement days, nor can anyone alive today change what happened back then.

..also heard it reported that the protesters wanted equal rights etc......someone needs to tell them they have the exact same rights we all have....and then some. It is up to them what they do with those rights, as it is for the rest of us, regardless of colour or religion.

This is a brilliant country, a happy country, warts and all. Some people need to appreciate what they actually do have, not whinge about what they don't.

Learn to smile at people, be friendly and it will be returned.

So if another country took over Australia and did what happened to the aborigines you'd be happy with a smile? Please. What a load of crock.

Also no-one is denying we live in a great country, it's amazing. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge our past.

 

[MacMum]

What does that even mean

I'm sure you will work it out eventually.

 

[joop]

I tend to agree with that , but it adds to my confusion about why they are offended by a particular date.

Did the English military sanction the rape of Aboriginals?
Was rape previously unknown among aboriginals?
Would Australia have been better if it was settled in that era by the French?, the Dutch? ( it was not going to remain unsettled we all know that ).

My original response that started all this was the use of the term "Limey's" in a modern context ( to which my tongue in cheek response was the correct word is pommy ).

Again why relate it all to Australia day except as a political stunt?

Why do you keep talking about things that could've happened without actually talking about what DID happen.
January 26 is celebrated as the English colonised New South Wales on this date, surely you know this?

 

[majortinkle]

Why do you keep talking about things that could've happened without actually talking about what DID happen.
January 26 is celebrated as the English colonised New South Wales on this date, surely you know this?

I reckon most Sydney siders basically celebrate it as the start of the housing price boom these days.

 

[Persevering Saint]

The issue is not whether "we" people now did anything to the indigenous people. The issue is us commemorating the day when somebody came in to take their land from them, and calling it a day to celebrate our national identity. We implicitly celebrate that we get to enjoy the fruits of somebody else's theft. It's just a douche thing to do.

That's why I endorse switching to Wattle Day: it's a symbol that is Australian, ancient, transcending all these other issues.

It also comes with the perk of being near the start of Spring, a chance for new hope. Aussies suck at celebrating Spring - the northern hemisphere have Easter at the start of Spring, which works as an entry into that season, and all it represents (yes we have Easter here, but it can't mean the same thing for us, being that it's in our Autumn... and leave aside the whole sacred/secular stuff, okay, you get my point).

 

[MacMum]

So if another country took over Australia and did what happened to the aborigines you'd be happy with a smile? Please. What a load of crock.

Also no-one is denying we live in a great country, it's amazing. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge our past.

Who said anything about not acknowledging our past?....but I'm not going to dwell on it as I can't do anything to change it. .....and if sorry isn't enough, what else do they want?.

Our Australia Day is offensive to them, they call it Invasion Day.........so if we change the date, does that mean they will accept that new date?...or will that be invasion day too?

I get a strong impression that some people will never be happy with their lot......no matter what they are given.

Majority of us have to make the most of what we have now. It is up to the individual how they live their lives and what they do with the opportunities this country gives them.

 

[Gangnam Saint]

And here we have it.
So what is going to cut it?

Until we are in a genuine dialogue we won't know. From what I have seen from some of the elders they recognise that reconciliation can't work by placing unrealistic demands on the non-indigenous majority who aren't responsible for what happened.
Whatever the final resolution is it probably needs to end in a treaty of some description.

 

[RoundCubic]

I tend to agree with that , but it adds to my confusion about why they are offended by a particular date.

Did the English military sanction the rape of Aboriginals?
Was rape previously unknown among aboriginals?
Would Australia have been better if it was settled in that era by the French?, the Dutch? ( it was not going to remain unsettled we all know that ).

My original response that started all this was the use of the term "Limey's" in a modern context ( to which my tongue in cheek response was the correct word is pommy ).

Again why relate it all to Australia day except as a political stunt?

They pretty much did as there was no means for people to seek justice people could act as they pleased with aboriginal people with out fear of justice. Would u be surprised if Vietnamese protested colonial day when the French occupied that country or South Africans or about 3/4 of the places on the earth.
The problen is that we fail to acknowledge that before the 1940's we were worse then South Africa and until the late 1960's we were as bad. We like the Japanese have never come to terms with our violent history and always try to play down the violence, rape and murder.
Australia is a different country from then most people under 40 have at least one parent born overseas but when we pretend that a culture and people were not massacred and persecuted we absolve our selves from trying to assist the survivors.
In qld right now they are offering only $9200 for aboriginal people who were forced to do unpayed or barely payed work as servants, maids and porters at government institutions that they were not free to leave or find alternative work. Most of these people are dead but the survivors suffer from physically and psychologically from their experiences as slaves in post ww2 australia and the government thinks $9200 is an appropriate level of compensation its a joke but the denial of the racist history of Australia allows this to continue.
Another example was when the old liberal aboriginal minister used funds for a country music festival in his electorate and it barely made the press.
We do not do enough and blame aboriginal people for their situation when we systematically robbed them of their lives, land, wealth, and culture for 200 years

 

[Persevering Saint]

Who said anything about not acknowledging our past?....but I'm not going to dwell on it as I can't do anything to change it. .....and if sorry isn't enough, what else do they want?.

Our Australia Day is offensive to them, they call it Invasion Day.........so if we change the date, does that mean they will accept that new date?...or will that be invasion day too?

I get a strong impression that some people will never be happy with their lot......no matter what they are given.

Majority of us have to make the most of what we have now. It is up to the individual how they live their lives and what they do with the opportunities this country gives them.

Another date isn't going to be on the day that Philip landed here to start taking over their land.

Imagine that somebody came over to your place, stole your stuff, and gave a piece of your stuff, bit by bit, to somebody else for their birthday - and then asked you to sing happy birthday while they did it. I suspect you would give them a seriously "UP YOURS".

Why is this concept so damn hard for people to understand?

 

[MacMum]

Another date isn't going to be on the day that Philip landed here to start taking over their land.

Imagine that somebody came over to your place, stole your stuff, and gave a piece of your stuff, bit by bit, to somebody else for their birthday - and then asked you to sing happy birthday while they did it. I suspect you would give them a seriously "UP YOURS".

Why is this concept so damn hard for people to understand?

I would be upset, yes...

..but I sure as hell would hope my descendants, 200 years on from now, have got on with their lives and were living in a completely different enviroment. Not worrying about something that happened 200 years earlier.

 

[Keg on legs]

Definitely brings a whole new meaning to the chant "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie - Oi, Oi,Oi"

I just hope we "Aussie" all over Essendon this year then.

 

[joop]

Another date isn't going to be on the day that Philip landed here to start taking over their land.

Imagine that somebody came over to your place, stole your stuff, and gave a piece of your stuff, bit by bit, to somebody else for their birthday - and then asked you to sing happy birthday while they did it. I suspect you would give them a seriously "UP YOURS".

Why is this concept so damn hard for people to understand?

Because we didn't do anything mate. It happened ages ago they should just get over it and accept our smiles.

 

[Gangnam Saint]

I would be upset, yes...

..but I sure as hell would hope my descendants, 200 years on from now, have got on with their lives and were living in a completely different enviroment. Not worrying about something that happened 200 years earlier.

Maturity dictates that you face it head on realising you can't return the situation back to where it was in the beginning but that some attempt to redress & reconcile occurs. This needs to happen rather than ignoring it hoping it will go away or die out.

Bit like leave a debt bill for you grandchildren to pay. It manifestly lacks a sense of responsibility or care.

We have an ancient culturally heritage in this country- with some anthropologists now suggestting based on new genetic evidence it could be the cradle of humanity and not in Africa as once thought. There is so much we can learn from them and their history yet many simply see it as an inconvenience.

 

[RoundCubic]

I would be upset, yes...

..but I sure as hell would hope my descendants, 200 years on from now, have got on with their lives and were living in a completely different enviroment. Not worrying about something that happened 200 years earlier.

How about if 160 years later your relatives had been used as slaves and then 200 years later people blame your community for its economic disadvantage when more then 8 out of 10 people under 35 still have their parents paying their bills using the wealth they gained from the housing boom.
The majority of issues in the aboriginal community are the result of structured disadvantage and victim blaming is just a justification to avoid putting an end to it.

 

[RoundCubic]

I just hope we "Aussie" all over Essendon this year then.

hopefully by the time we play them half their top ups will have broken down and it will be a training drill

 

[Persevering Saint]

I would be upset, yes...

..but I sure as hell would hope my descendants, 200 years on from now, have got on with their lives and were living in a completely different enviroment. Not worrying about something that happened 200 years earlier.

Because we didn't do anything mate. It happened ages ago they should just get over it and accept our smiles.

Except, in my analogy, we're the ones reaping the benefits now of those people 's crimes. We're the ones getting the birthday presents every year, in case you missed it.

Now, on one level we can't do anything about that (other than ongoing evening things out for our indigenous people, who still get a pretty rough go at it). But we can still change the narrative, stop rubbing their nose in it every year.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Why do you keep talking about things that could've happened without actually talking about what DID happen.
January 26 is celebrated as the English colonised New South Wales on this date, surely you know this?

So it appears to be offensive that Australia was colonized.
Time to accept that it WAS and move on.