Discussion Random Discussion

[VDS66]

Federation day was January 1 which won't work for seniors reasons.

Best solution imo is recognition and then celebrate when we become a Republic.

A true celebration of a united, Independant nation.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Federation day was January 1 which won't work for seniors reasons.

Best solution imo is recognition and then celebrate when we become a Republic.

A true celebration of a united, Independant nation.

now theres another can of worms ... republic debate ... cant see it happening while Queeny is still kicking on

 

[sunny3193]

Why would anyone vote for a republic now, when D Trump is doing such a good job promoting the concept?

 

[StCicatriz]

of course im not advocating that the original inhabitants of our lands were all in harmony and the place was a utopia there was class divides between tribes there was forms of slavery between tribes and yeah whole tribes were wiped out but the hardship that became of all of the tribes of Australia was ten fold once the english got here ...

you're not wrong the outcome was horrible and much worse

but i do think an element of that was because you had a much larger different group that was so much more technologically advanced that were motivated to settle on the same land mass. thats before you factor in how ingrained invade/conquer was given the long running situation in europe

doesnt make it any better. its ****in horrible

but i do think there is this naive view out there that genocide is a white man's problem, when in reality is a problem with the human condition that we need to work on collectively

 

[VDS66]

now theres another can of worms ... republic debate ... cant see it happening while Queeny is still kicking on

The sooner we remove all colonial references, the better we will be.

The conservative elites will not allow this to happen any time soon as the fight to maintain the status quo.

The unification and political organisation of the middle and lower classes is their biggest threat.

This is why we see politics of fear and division that pits person against person.

It makes people suspicious of each other. Witness how we treat refugees, the so called war on terror and the constant portrayal of unemployed, minority groups etc as "leaners"... not to mention the attacks on Unions.

That's their method. We are too busy fighting each other to make a change.

Now take the SSM vote...

Originally deployed by conservatives and the religious right as a stalling tactic, in the hope that voter apathy would muddy the waters. It has backfired in spectacular fashion, as the people have show they're no mugs.

The flip side is that more young folk registered to vote which can only be a good thing given the ever growing blue rinse demographic.

So there is hope... it will take time, but there is hope.

Referenda are difficult to get through due to the above reasons.

The SSM result would have sent a shiver up the conservative spine, and there is no way they will try that again.

So expect more of the same for now.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

you're not wrong the outcome was horrible and much worse

but i do think an element of that was because you had a much larger different group that was so much more technologically advanced that were motivated to settle on the same land mass. thats before you factor in how ingrained invade/conquer was given the long running situation in europe

doesnt make it any better. its ****in horrible

but i do think there is this naive view out there that genocide is a white man's problem, when in reality is a problem with the human condition that we need to work on collectively

Genocide is most definatly not a white man problem... the fact we still see it happening today in parts of Africa and asia and event to extent in Europe is sad to see we dont learn ...
honestly i get the whole invasion thing in the era the discovery of Australia it was still a somewhat primitave me wants me takes type of world the truely saddening part ofthe invasion of Australia wasnt just the invasion itself it was the generation on generation of dehumanising of the aboriginal people hell it took til 2013 thats right 2013 for the aboriginal flag to be flown alongside the Australian flag on the Sydney Harbour Bridge ...

 

[George]

If Bonar wins a B&F with GWS will the headlines be 'GIANT BONAR' ?

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

The sooner we remove all colonial references, the better we will be.

The conservative elites will not allow this to happen any time soon as the fight to maintain the status quo.

The unification and political organisation of the middle and lower classes is their biggest threat.

This is why we see politics of fear and division that pits person against person.

It makes people suspicious of each other. Witness how we treat refugees, the so called war on terror and the constant portrayal of unemployed, minority groups etc as "leaners"... not to mention the attacks on Unions.

That's their method. We are too busy fighting each other to make a change.

Now take the SSM vote...

Originally deployed by conservatives and the religious right as a stalling tactic, in the hope that voter apathy would muddy the waters. It has backfired in spectacular fashion, as the people have show they're no mugs.

The flip side is that more young folk registered to vote which can only be a good thing given the ever growing blue rinse demographic.

So there is hope... it will take time, but there is hope.

Referenda are difficult to get through due to the above reasons.

The SSM result would have sent a shiver up the conservative spine, and there is no way they will try that again.

So expect more of the same for now.

the era of the conservitive is coming to a fast end ... it has no place in modern society the more people i talk to now days are more partial to the politics of the greens then that of the conservitives the problem is almost all of them are conditioned to this idea that the greens are not a viable option and a vote for them will make veganism compusory and we will dance around with flowers hugging trees ect. the catch cry of the conservitives has always been "we are more responsible with the money" well thats really shown to be not true..

 

[gringo2011]

It's a difficult situation, it's hard to imagine that aboriginal Australians will ever be happy with the fact that Capt. Arthur Phillip raised the flag on the 26 of January.

The day has been celebrated in some form for the best part of 200 years and I would argue that it does indeed have significance for many Australians.

I'm no historian but whenever I read history or watch documentaries it is astounding how many countries have been invaded and effectively colonised, many multiple times including Britain.

Where does this all end st trav and where in history do we stop the clock. It seems to me that no matter when we choose somebody is going to be pretty aggrieved.

I also find it a strange form of racism that it appears many people don't seem to count invasion and collinisation unless it was committed by Europeans on non Europeans.

I'll probably piss a few people off and some may view my opinion as racist, I hope you don't it's just my honest view of what is a complicated and many faceted argument.

Australia Day has only really been a thing for about 10 years. In the 1980s we sang god save the queen every monday morning and watched BBC reruns on one of our 4 tv stations. 1988 was the bicentennial year and it started a bit of a half arsed nationalism. We were all pretty cynical and thought it was copying the Americans with their zealous national identity.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

If Bonar wins a B&F with GWS will the headlines be 'GIANT BONAR' ?

The Giants are commonly referred to as the plastics.

He has therefore now become a plastic bonar.

Dare I say, a dildo [emoji41]

 

[StCicatriz]

Genocide is most definatly not a white man problem... the fact we still see it happening today in parts of Africa and asia and event to extent in Europe is sad to see we dont learn ...
honestly i get the whole invasion thing in the era the discovery of Australia it was still a somewhat primitave me wants me takes type of world the truely saddening part ofthe invasion of Australia wasnt just the invasion itself it was the generation on generation of dehumanising of the aboriginal people hell it took til 2013 thats right 2013 for the aboriginal flag to be flown alongside the Australian flag on the Sydney Harbour Bridge ...

spot on mate

i remember a family member telling me that even in the 60s for indigenous people to enter Perth they had to had to get a permit approved in the form of this passport type thing

just so wrong

 

[Yawkey way]

Australia Day has only really been a thing for about 10 years. In the 1980s we sang god save the queen every monday morning and watched BBC reruns on one of our 4 tv stations. 1988 was the bicentennial year and it started a bit of a half arsed nationalism. We were all pretty cynical and thought it was copying the Americans with their zealous national identity.

Yes Australia was very British when I was a young kid which was normal enough given the population.

We had previous celebrations of cooks landing, I remember stickers and other bits and pieces to commemorate the occasion being everywhere.

Yeah the bicentennial was well sold I remember being down at point Ormond when they lit the beacon down there, you can still see the commerative plaque.

On the whole it's hasn't really been a big part of the country's makeup, I think you see it more when people push back rather than overt displays of nationalism.

The country is changing whether people like it or not, it's interesting watching those changing attitudes in your own children.

 

[gringo2011]

Genocide is most definatly not a white man problem... the fact we still see it happening today in parts of Africa and asia and event to extent in Europe is sad to see we dont learn ...
honestly i get the whole invasion thing in the era the discovery of Australia it was still a somewhat primitave me wants me takes type of world the truely saddening part ofthe invasion of Australia wasnt just the invasion itself it was the generation on generation of dehumanising of the aboriginal people hell it took til 2013 thats right 2013 for the aboriginal flag to be flown alongside the Australian flag on the Sydney Harbour Bridge ...

When the Saints won their last flag Aboriginals weren't Australian citizens and couldn't vote. They were coThey may have a few reasons to get shitted off by their treatment. We made exemptions though when we wanted them to fight in wars. The Aboriginal protectorate gave them special letters so they could leave the country to die for the English monarchy.

 

[cartel]

I'd generally support another Australia day. I think it's important to have a day to celebrate all that is good in Australia (and there is a lot) but I can understand (in a non-complete middle class white man way) the feelings of Aboriginal people towards Jan 26th. It's also very Anglo centric date, which is not representative of modern Australia. I'd like to think one of the values Australia should aspire towards is inclusivity, and the date doesn't exactly do that.

Why would anyone vote for a republic now, when D Trump is doing such a good job promoting the concept?

Because we should have an Australian head of state.

I would hope, but not entirely expect, that any Australian could aspire to become the head of state, and it be granted democratically stemming from merit, not in a hereditary basis from a privliged family in a foreign country.

Even if it is a largely symbolic change, then I think it is a big step in the development of Australia as a nation.

 

[sunny3193]

Because we should have an Australian head of state.

I would hope, but not entirely expect, that any Australian could aspire to become the head of state, and it be granted democratically stemming from merit, not in a hereditary basis from a privliged family in a foreign country.

Even if it is a largely symbolic change, then I think it is a big step in the development of Australia as a nation.

My sentiments until November 2016.
Then Trump was elected.
An elected head of state needs to be someone who has an attention span greater than a gnat’s, an emotional empathy deeper than a puddle, the cognitive skills of an adult, a respect for the societal and governance norms of the nation, be unburdened by extreme narcissism, and no Twitter handle.
Until you guarantee me that, I’m voting no.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

My sentiments until November 2016.
Then Trump was elected.
An elected head of state needs to be someone who has an attention span greater than a gnat’s, an emotional empathy deeper than a puddle, the cognitive skills of an adult, a respect for the societal and governance norms of the nation, be unburdened by extreme narcissism, and no Twitter handle.
Until you guarantee me that, I’m voting no.

Unfortunately, I can’t recall a leader of a first world country that fits those criteria

 

[gringo2011]

The sooner we remove all colonial references, the better we will be.

The conservative elites will not allow this to happen any time soon as the fight to maintain the status quo.

The unification and political organisation of the middle and lower classes is their biggest threat.

This is why we see politics of fear and division that pits person against person.

It makes people suspicious of each other. Witness how we treat refugees, the so called war on terror and the constant portrayal of unemployed, minority groups etc as "leaners"... not to mention the attacks on Unions.

That's their method. We are too busy fighting each other to make a change.

Now take the SSM vote...

Originally deployed by conservatives and the religious right as a stalling tactic, in the hope that voter apathy would muddy the waters. It has backfired in spectacular fashion, as the people have show they're no mugs.

The flip side is that more young folk registered to vote which can only be a good thing given the ever growing blue rinse demographic.

So there is hope... it will take time, but there is hope.

Referenda are difficult to get through due to the above reasons.

The SSM result would have sent a shiver up the conservative spine, and there is no way they will try that again.

So expect more of the same for now.

I’m a business owner but when I was young I was in unions. I’m still amazed how many people enjoy the spoils of unions but won’t join one and even bag them. The 20th century saw the working and poor dragged up to a good standard of living. Mostly the work that of the union of workers sticking together even when they were personally injured or made worse off because of their union activity.

 

[austinnn]

I’m a business owner but when I was young I was in unions. I’m still amazed how many people enjoy the spoils of unions but won’t join one and even bag them. The 20th century saw the working and poor dragged up to a good standard of living. Mostly the work that of the union of workers sticking together even when they were personally injured or made worse off because of their union activity.

All true, but over here in France you get a sense that maybe the unions have run out of legitimate stuff to change and are now justifying their existence by taking the piss (or maybe I'm just getting more conservative in my 40s). French workers and those needing benefits have a system that their equivalents in most countries in the world would literally die for, but despite the crumbling economy, no one is satisfied. There were strikes regularly a few years back when the government dared put the age of retirement up to like 65! LOL.

French strikes generally have little effect though, as their version of striking is spending the day casually strolling down the street with maybe one or two discreet signs and very little chanting, so passers by generally don't have much idea what is happening (so French to make people guess for stuff that should be made obvious). The youngsters are a bit more militant though.

 

[austinnn]

Australia Day has only really been a thing for about 10 years. In the 1980s we sang god save the queen every monday morning and watched BBC reruns on one of our 4 tv stations. 1988 was the bicentennial year and it started a bit of a half arsed nationalism. We were all pretty cynical and thought it was copying the Americans with their zealous national identity.

Reminds me of being a teenager sitting in a freezing cold house in England watching the media hoopla about the bicentenary of this famed Promised Land. Blue skies, happy people, the Opera House, Americas Cup yachts, bright colours, Ken Done, Kylie Minogue driving across the Harbour Bridge in her pop video, Neighbours, Paul Hogan, Fosters, good cricketers, old mate Bob Hawke, people with jobs, etc compared to the drudgery and shabby brown misery of eighties England... it's no wonder you got an influx of pommie migrants like myself flocking to your golden shores.

Personally, I think it's great that Australia is gradually shaking off the faux-UK shackles and aligning more with the USA and dare I say it, Asia. When you see Australian stuff from the old days, it seems so stilted and British compared to now.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

I’m a business owner but when I was young I was in unions. I’m still amazed how many people enjoy the spoils of unions but won’t join one and even bag them. The 20th century saw the working and poor dragged up to a good standard of living. Mostly the work that of the union of workers sticking together even when they were personally injured or made worse off because of their union activity.

i have full respect for the work the unions did to get the australian worker the benefits we have today and i strongly believe in a good union keeping employers honest but my personal experiances with unions have left me pretty disguntled with them ...
my first run in with the unions was as a 19 yearold working for a supermarket distribution centre.. at the time i like a good percentage of the workers in this distribution centre were a casual worker so basically we could be sent home anytime after 3 hrs of work dependent on the work flow.. that meant working weekends for the penalty rates was the only way to get ahead and considering the full timers were monday to friday the work was always there on the weekend. the job was also heavily incentive driven so the faster you picked an order or put away a shipment the higher your efficency rate and you got paid bonus payments once you were working over 101% with the amount of bonus increasing the higher the efficency (capped at 145%), as it turned out the salary negotiation time was in full swing and our union delegates who were going in to bat for us to get the best deal for us just happened to be the forklift opperators.. anyway long story short when the pay negotiation was compleated the changes to the agreement were that Forklift drivers incentives were no longer capped at 145% and they could effectively earn more in incentive than their salary, everyone else got the cap moved to 150% but the trade off for that was the union signed that for weekend work that there was to be no incentive payments and that the weekend penalty rates be not applied over the month of december due to opperational needs... the forklift drivers in the union fluffed their own nest and screwed the casuals... in the end none of the casuals signed the agreement because we were getting screwed and the union put pressure on us to think about our fellow employees who wanted the change.. after 3 months suprisingly all casual staff were let go ....
so a good union is a good thing but when you get a bad one they are the worst

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Genocide is most definatly not a white man problem... the fact we still see it happening today in parts of Africa and asia and event to extent in Europe is sad to see we dont learn ...
honestly i get the whole invasion thing in the era the discovery of Australia it was still a somewhat primitave me wants me takes type of world the truely saddening part ofthe invasion of Australia wasnt just the invasion itself it was the generation on generation of dehumanising of the aboriginal people hell it took til 2013 thats right 2013 for the aboriginal flag to be flown alongside the Australian flag on the Sydney Harbour Bridge ...

Wow when was there even an Aboriginal Flag? It took just 20 years or so for it to be recognised as a "Flag of Australia". I really don't see that flag.... "that's right the aboriginal flag" as a good example of what you are stating.

I find "Invasion" a poor, inflammatory term specifically used to try to provoke an emotive result. I don't believe it helps any cause to use it.

Using a simple definition from Wikipedia.

An invasion is a military offensive in which large parts of combatants of one geopolitical entity aggressively enter territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of either conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory, forcing the partition of a country, altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government, or a combination thereof. An invasion can be the cause of a war, be a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in itself. Due to the large scale of the operations associated with invasions, they are usually strategic in planning and execution

No the British Navy did not front up with the Royal Navy with the main goal being to subvert the indigenous population.
No the Indigenous Australians did not have control over the entire country. Individual tribes can hardly be considered a "geopolitical entity".

The way the world was at the time, the eventual settlement of Australia by SOMEONE!!!. Was inevitable.
I'm a bit over the ancestor (and i have no direct lineage to early settlers ) shaming.

Even today its not likely that 5% of the earths land area would be left in the hands of a small population of nomadic tribes, though i like to think that the settlement would be a lot more civilised.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

i have full respect for the work the unions did to get the australian worker the benefits we have today and i strongly believe in a good union keeping employers honest but my personal experiances with unions have left me pretty disguntled with them ...
my first run in with the unions was as a 19 yearold working for a supermarket distribution centre.. at the time i like a good percentage of the workers in this distribution centre were a casual worker so basically we could be sent home anytime after 3 hrs of work dependent on the work flow.. that meant working weekends for the penalty rates was the only way to get ahead and considering the full timers were monday to friday the work was always there on the weekend. the job was also heavily incentive driven so the faster you picked an order or put away a shipment the higher your efficency rate and you got paid bonus payments once you were working over 101% with the amount of bonus increasing the higher the efficency (capped at 145%), as it turned out the salary negotiation time was in full swing and our union delegates who were going in to bat for us to get the best deal for us just happened to be the forklift opperators.. anyway long story short when the pay negotiation was compleated the changes to the agreement were that Forklift drivers incentives were no longer capped at 145% and they could effectively earn more in incentive than their salary, everyone else got the cap moved to 150% but the trade off for that was the union signed that for weekend work that there was to be no incentive payments and that the weekend penalty rates be not applied over the month of december due to opperational needs... the forklift drivers in the union fluffed their own nest and screwed the casuals... in the end none of the casuals signed the agreement because we were getting screwed and the union put pressure on us to think about our fellow employees who wanted the change.. after 3 months suprisingly all casual staff were let go ....
so a good union is a good thing but when you get a bad one they are the worst

Yeah i agree with that.
Some of their issues are short sighted and really a century out of date.

You take a case like the "Streets Ice Cream Workers".
They are owned by an overseas company.
The guy running it isn't a "fat cat boss". He's an employee who has to report profits and losses to the owners.
They can make the same products in their overseas factory's.

So then you get workers who are on "very good wicket" fighting like mad to maintain their over the top wages, on the grounds that they previously forced their wages really high.

If they can bring in the product from oversea's and make more money they will.
They don't care if they have to close the plant and there are no jobs for kids.
I'm working for a place now, and we have guys on reasonable money.
If they'd been on "Streets workers money" the doors would have been closed a decade ago.
The managing director is not a "Fat Cat Boss". He's a guy who's struggling to find ways to keep the operation viable.

 

[gringo2011]

i have full respect for the work the unions did to get the australian worker the benefits we have today and i strongly believe in a good union keeping employers honest but my personal experiances with unions have left me pretty disguntled with them ...
my first run in with the unions was as a 19 yearold working for a supermarket distribution centre.. at the time i like a good percentage of the workers in this distribution centre were a casual worker so basically we could be sent home anytime after 3 hrs of work dependent on the work flow.. that meant working weekends for the penalty rates was the only way to get ahead and considering the full timers were monday to friday the work was always there on the weekend. the job was also heavily incentive driven so the faster you picked an order or put away a shipment the higher your efficency rate and you got paid bonus payments once you were working over 101% with the amount of bonus increasing the higher the efficency (capped at 145%), as it turned out the salary negotiation time was in full swing and our union delegates who were going in to bat for us to get the best deal for us just happened to be the forklift opperators.. anyway long story short when the pay negotiation was compleated the changes to the agreement were that Forklift drivers incentives were no longer capped at 145% and they could effectively earn more in incentive than their salary, everyone else got the cap moved to 150% but the trade off for that was the union signed that for weekend work that there was to be no incentive payments and that the weekend penalty rates be not applied over the month of december due to opperational needs... the forklift drivers in the union fluffed their own nest and screwed the casuals... in the end none of the casuals signed the agreement because we were getting screwed and the union put pressure on us to think about our fellow employees who wanted the change.. after 3 months suprisingly all casual staff were let go ....
so a good union is a good thing but when you get a bad one they are the worst

That's why employers want to get individuals to sign contracts with out union interference. It's trying to erode away the conditions a little at a time. The way Uber and other "disruptive" industries are sold as a modern alternative when they are actually really about getting individuals to race to the worst conditions and least pay to compete is genius spin.

I was in Kennetts first wave of individual contracts and got nothing from the union but still paid the fees. The unions have some absolute grubs but no different to the corporate world or politics.

Once when the employers wanted you to sign on as casuals they would demand that at a set point they needed to put you on as a full time or part time permanent worker and that at set points you had to pay over time to keep people having time away from work. Now that unions aren't all in, there is all kinds of issues arising but in the long run the conditions will erode away. Companies will pay huge bonuses to their leaders to make the work-force worse off. But it's up to you folks, it's better for me if you don't want unions.

 

[gringo2011]

All true, but over here in France you get a sense that maybe the unions have run out of legitimate stuff to change and are now justifying their existence by taking the piss (or maybe I'm just getting more conservative in my 40s). French workers and those needing benefits have a system that their equivalents in most countries in the world would literally die for, but despite the crumbling economy, no one is satisfied. There were strikes regularly a few years back when the government dared put the age of retirement up to like 65! LOL.

French strikes generally have little effect though, as their version of striking is spending the day casually strolling down the street with maybe one or two discreet signs and very little chanting, so passers by generally don't have much idea what is happening (so French to make people guess for stuff that should be made obvious). The youngsters are a bit more militant though.

I met a couple of french guys who are working out here and trying to get citizenship, they are both in their 20s. One was a Law/ commerce degree holder and said he just couldn't get a foot in the door and was working doing tourist work like making coffee and other dead end jobs. He reckons if you are under 30 and don't own property in France you are i real trouble and it's hard to see any future there. He's out here doing dead end work but finds it better paid and the life style is at least fun. The other guy is an electrician from Normandy who said that the EU has mean that there are heaps of immigrants from Poland and Eastern Europe who will do the work cheaper and cash in hand so he can't make a living.

Both reckon there will be a revolution with the youth taking back France, both were political cynics. It didn't sound much fun from their description. Business is doing well but sending money out of the countries that the money is earned in, until that stops their will try to get workers to do everything cheaper to compete because they are all "broke".

Scandinavian economies seem to operate well despite high wages.

 

[VDS66]

Great discussion