Discussion Random Discussion

[st_trav_ofWA]

No that's not how the term INVASION. Is used. The meaning is being perverted to suit the cause. I posted a definition of it.
SOME of the aboriginals were racist. Some were very warlike , so xenophobic they wouldn't even suffer other tribes. Some of them threw spears at Capt Cook just for being there. Others were friendlier. They were NOT some weird race of peaceful nature loving environmental do-gooders.

The settlers did not arrive with an agenda to displace the Aboriginals.
Many of the conflicts were initiated by Aboriginal tribes. Others were pure culture clash , put a redneck sheepfarmer near a tribe of natives who are used to catching whatever food they can find.
The biggest tragedy was disease, introduced to a people that had little exposure and therefore little immunity.
The way its going history will soon be saying that John Phillip rocked up with a ship full off Sherman tanks.

---------------------------------------------
We don't like having big businesses here, but its businesses that innovate. If someone at Holden had an innovative idea, it was immediately rolled out to the GM factory in China. If Someone at Toyota Australia had a great idea, it got implemented in the Thailand plant.

So who is going to innovate? Of course scientists had their funding slashed. They invent something. Sell it for a price , not enough to cover the research, to an overseas country who capitalise on it.
The days of oh look i've invented the Hills Hoist are long gone. Big corporations have patents for just about every harebrained idea out there and it costs too much to patent anyway. Innovative students get jobs in K-Mart.

Here is one good example about why you don't want to be an Australian based company. There are plenty of other reasons.
Gearbox manufacturer in Albury needs to find more customers since Australian market is down to Ford and declining.
Find new customer Sanyong.
Sanyong go broke , declare bankruptcy under Korean law. They get to write off their debt.
Gearbox manufacturer goes bust because biggest customer doesn't pay their bill.
Under Korean law Sanyong are able to keep trading.
Under Australian law Sanyong are able to purchase the company that went broke because of them.

you posted the dictonary definition of invasion and thats fine but what else would you classify the forceful taking of land ?
some of the aboriginals were racist .. no shit they were so would any race be fearful of a strange group coming on strange contraptions with these strange contraptions that can kill quickly.. Cooks journal tells of the first day on the land he fired three shots from his musket one hitting what was believed to be an elder of the tribe.. the initial reports back to the mother land was Australia was inhabitable and that the natives were hostile but not a threat he wrote that the native were primitive and scared with only rocks and darts as weapons .. this is why they came back to claim the land for England but again that part was only the start the real pain was still yet to come.. the original settlers were not the worst of what came they were just the first of what came and while theres nothing that can be done to change what happened and there shouldnt be guilt felt by todays generation for what happened it is important to acknowllege what did happen and be sorry for what did happen not just on the first day but one the subsequent days years decades centurys after that first day.. celebrating that first day is celebrating the start of generations of abuse and poor treatment that still even today is happening to the aboriginal people ..

----------------------
innovation is more than "lets invent the hills hoist" Australia was a leader in research to the cure of AIDS, it was a leader in the research for hearing, the work of Fred Hollows (although technically a Kiwi) in saving the sight of thousands, the work of Fiona Stanley in childhood disablilty, the work of Fiona Wood in her burn treatment ..... all these things are innovations that Australia were leaders in per capita Australia produced a extremly high protion of world changers but it seems that unless there can be massive profits made from inovation then its not a huge priority for government

 

[SaintsSeptember]

\

When we had globalisation pushed on us because it suits big business to sell in any market they chose with out tariffs. When Holden made cars here and had import tariffs on imports we could sell our cars for a competitive amount. China can build a car for about $4000 we would have to pay at least 3 times that to make it here. Globalisation is great if you are like Apple who already have huge monopoly and no one can catch up. They can make something in china for next to nothing bypassing any kind of labour and safety laws. They then sell it in a country like Australia then make up invoices in a tax haven to look like you only make 10 cents per unit.

I heard from some Holden guy's that the difference between a car here and a car overseas, in direct labour was 10%. Mind you that was probably when it was AU$90c to the USD, at the time the decision was made. Overheads can be an issue, but this is an area where you CAN innovate. I heard similar pricing from Toyota. Australian cars did NOT cost 1/3 of the SAME Chinese car to manufacture.
Tarriffs are a ripper.
The theory is that tarriffs made the cost of cars too much for Australians.
So we drop the tariffs: Immediate effect imports got cheaper. Delayed affect dollar drops due to less domestic manufacture, cars get dearer.

The manufacturer's don't bring in cars at the manufactured price. They set the wholesale price, with the markup , as you suggested going to a tax haven.
So if you have no tarriff's you can set the wholesale price of your $20K retail car to $19990. Oh no after expenses and selling costs etc , I make a loss. Shucks i don't have to pay tax in Australia.

What if there are 50% tarriff's? That car would then cost $30 000, they are paying 10 000 in duty.
But what if they set the wholesale price to $10 000 the cost becomes $15 000. Can they still sell it for $30 000
They make 10 000 less offshore profit, but $15 000 profit in Australia. And paying only $5000 in duty.
That's plenty of profit, and they'd sell more cars if they dropped their price. So the 50% duty would NOT equate to 50% higher prices.

How much do those Apple phone things sell for?
I cant imagine that the manufacturing cost is more than $50. Probably closer to $30.

The dollar is creeping down further and further, soon we'll wish we could buy a car that lasts more than 150000km for $30 000.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Is that st trav at the front.

maybe....

 

[SaintsSeptember]

you posted the dictonary definition of invasion and thats fine but what else would you classify the forceful taking of land ?
some of the aboriginals were racist .. no shit they were so would any race be fearful of a strange group coming on strange contraptions with these strange contraptions that can kill quickly.. Cooks journal tells of the first day on the land he fired three shots from his musket one hitting what was believed to be an elder of the tribe.. the initial reports back to the mother land was Australia was inhabitable and that the natives were hostile but not a threat he wrote that the native were primitive and scared with only rocks and darts as weapons .. this is why they came back to claim the land for England but again that part was only the start the real pain was still yet to come.. the original settlers were not the worst of what came they were just the first of what came and while theres nothing that can be done to change what happened and there shouldnt be guilt felt by todays generation for what happened it is important to acknowllege what did happen and be sorry for what did happen not just on the first day but one the subsequent days years decades centurys after that first day.. celebrating that first day is celebrating the start of generations of abuse and poor treatment that still even today is happening to the aboriginal people ..

ANY day you set as a commemoration of Australia as a nation can be considered offensive if you follow your argument.
Its the actual nation of Australia that you are finding offensive. The guilt is implicit.
The date is not synonymous with any particular event except the raising of a British Flag to mark the founding of the Settlement.
What significance would that day or event have had with the indigenous population of the time.


In those colonial times British settlement was probably not the worst fate.
SOMEONE was going to settle Australia.
One of the things that stirred up the Americans into civil war was directive not to encroach onto Indian Land.

I know Captain Cook ordered some natives to be shot at. Non-lethal buckshot.
There was no conflict for months after the raising of the flag.
__________________________________________________
Violence between Indigenous Australians and Europeans began several months after the First Fleet established Sydney on 26 January 1788. The local Indigenous people became suspicious when the British began to clear land and catch fish, and in May 1788 five convicts were killed and an Indigenous man was wounded. The British grew increasingly concerned when groups of up to three hundred Indigenous people were sighted at the outskirts of the settlement in June. Despite this, Phillip attempted to avoid conflict, and forbade reprisals after being speared in 1790. He did, however, authorise two punitive expeditions in December 1790 after his huntsman was killed by an Indigenous warrior named Pemulwuy, but neither was successful
____________________________________________________
This is not the format of an invasion.
This is no more an invasion than boat people settling in Australia.

 

[StCicatriz]

ANY day you set as a commemoration of Australia as a nation can be considered offensive if you follow your argument.
Its the actual nation of Australia that you are finding offensive. The guilt is implicit.
The date is not synonymous with any particular event except the raising of a British Flag to mark the founding of the Settlement.
What significance would that day or event have had with the indigenous population of the time.


In those colonial times British settlement was probably not the worst fate.
SOMEONE was going to settle Australia.
One of the things that stirred up the Americans into civil war was directive not to encroach onto Indian Land.

I know Captain Cook ordered some natives to be shot at. Non-lethal buckshot.
There was no conflict for months after the raising of the flag.
__________________________________________________
Violence between Indigenous Australians and Europeans began several months after the First Fleet established Sydney on 26 January 1788. The local Indigenous people became suspicious when the British began to clear land and catch fish, and in May 1788 five convicts were killed and an Indigenous man was wounded. The British grew increasingly concerned when groups of up to three hundred Indigenous people were sighted at the outskirts of the settlement in June. Despite this, Phillip attempted to avoid conflict, and forbade reprisals after being speared in 1790. He did, however, authorise two punitive expeditions in December 1790 after his huntsman was killed by an Indigenous warrior named Pemulwuy, but neither was successful
____________________________________________________
This is not the format of an invasion.
This is no more an invasion than boat people settling in Australia.

the problem is the "white people bad"/"indigineous people good"/"white guilt" mentality. i swear a number of people have been conditioned to believe the indigenous populations were this perfect race of people living in harmony with each other and the environment. free of social issues. a lot of this i believe is aided by a lack of written evidence. you just dont have the detailed history like you have with other population groups. then you add in the need for a big social shift and cultural change needed given the long running racism and abuse of the aboriginal people and you were always going to end up with a fair amount of delusion amongst people. problems arise when that delusion impacts our ability to tackle issues especially when there's a fear of racism or repeating the mistakes of the past. if you want an example of that, google Roebourne.

indigenous people are human like everyone else, good and bad. their culture is unique to this country and we should be proud of it and protect it. like any australian they should have our support. if there's an injustice or inequality it should be corrected.

but back to the date, my opinion is that it has no relevance to Australia the country. i associate the date with the British. mother ****ing england. i'd much rather us become a republic and for us to change Australia Day to the day we become a republic. if we do it right we could heal a lot of the wounds that were created over centuries of abuse and neglect, or atleast move to healing them.

 

[VDS66]

Settlement and colonisation was inevitable by some nation.

So moving on...

I think the atrocities should be acknowledged to help heal the wounds.

Indigenous people and their leaders have to determine where they wish to fit in and how they want to live.

They should also lose their victim mentality once we reconcile the past and then work towards positive action to improve their lot.

Unfortunately, I think white Australia is happy to keep them out of sight and out of mind.

An organised, assertive indigenous people would cause all sorts of problems for the resource industry... And we can't have that.

 

[gringo2011]

I heard from some Holden guy's that the difference between a car here and a car overseas, in direct labour was 10%. Mind you that was probably when it was AU$90c to the USD, at the time the decision was made. Overheads can be an issue, but this is an area where you CAN innovate. I heard similar pricing from Toyota. Australian cars did NOT cost 1/3 of the SAME Chinese car to manufacture.
Tarriffs are a ripper.
The theory is that tarriffs made the cost of cars too much for Australians.
So we drop the tariffs: Immediate effect imports got cheaper. Delayed affect dollar drops due to less domestic manufacture, cars get dearer.

The manufacturer's don't bring in cars at the manufactured price. They set the wholesale price, with the markup , as you suggested going to a tax haven.
So if you have no tarriff's you can set the wholesale price of your $20K retail car to $19990. Oh no after expenses and selling costs etc , I make a loss. Shucks i don't have to pay tax in Australia.

What if there are 50% tarriff's? That car would then cost $30 000, they are paying 10 000 in duty.
But what if they set the wholesale price to $10 000 the cost becomes $15 000. Can they still sell it for $30 000
They make 10 000 less offshore profit, but $15 000 profit in Australia. And paying only $5000 in duty.
That's plenty of profit, and they'd sell more cars if they dropped their price. So the 50% duty would NOT equate to 50% higher prices.

How much do those Apple phone things sell for?
I cant imagine that the manufacturing cost is more than $50. Probably closer to $30.

The dollar is creeping down further and further, soon we'll wish we could buy a car that lasts more than 150000km for $30 000.

Yep, kept locals employed, meant money stayed local, prices were more expensive but kept the second hand market going which is actually better for the environment than manufacturing a shit load of cars with a 5 year life span.

Globalisation is a con that helps very few but the ultra wealthy and big companies. It has the effect of destroying local economies like in the US, which lead to people like Trump who promise to turn it back to how it all was. Chinese manufacturing workers are having their time in the sun until manufacture there gets expensive then they will move it some where por with low wages or make it all mechanised so that labour isn't needed.

The US has started into the inevitable decline that globalisation has on the general populations living standards. We are a fair way behind but eventually it will hit.

 

[gringo2011]

Settlement and colonisation was inevitable by some nation.

So moving on...

I think the atrocities should be acknowledged to help heal the wounds.

Indigenous people and their leaders have to determine where they wish to fit in and how they want to live.

They should also lose their victim mentality once we reconcile the past and then work towards positive action to improve their lot.

Unfortunately, I think white Australia is happy to keep them out of sight and out of mind.

An organised, assertive indigenous people would cause all sorts of problems for the resource industry... And we can't have that.

Luckily for the resource sector there are some greedy people in every community. That's why no matter how much we spend the vast majority still live in shit conditions. I think it's true people have some kind of fatigue from guilt and just don't want to deal with it more than any malice toward them.

 

[StCicatriz]

Yep, kept locals employed, meant money stayed local, prices were more expensive but kept the second hand market going which is actually better for the environment than manufacturing a shit load of cars with a 5 year life span.

Globalisation is a con that helps very few but the ultra wealthy and big companies. It has the effect of destroying local economies like in the US, which lead to people like Trump who promise to turn it back to how it all was. Chinese manufacturing workers are having their time in the sun until manufacture there gets expensive then they will move it some where por with low wages or make it all mechanised so that labour isn't needed.

The US has started into the inevitable decline that globalisation has on the general populations living standards. We are a fair way behind but eventually it will hit.

wait for automation to kick in... China's massive labor market might find it pretty damn tough

 

[StCicatriz]

Settlement and colonisation was inevitable by some nation.

So moving on...

I think the atrocities should be acknowledged to help heal the wounds.

Indigenous people and their leaders have to determine where they wish to fit in and how they want to live.

They should also lose their victim mentality once we reconcile the past and then work towards positive action to improve their lot.

Unfortunately, I think white Australia is happy to keep them out of sight and out of mind.

An organised, assertive indigenous people would cause all sorts of problems for the resource industry... And we can't have that.

spot on

one of the most ignorant displays of activism i have seen was when the WA government moved to shut down a number of very remote problem communities. you then had a bunch of people in melbourne going with mass protests in the CBD. it was utterly absurd and showed how far removed they are from some of the problems facing remote communities in WA, but to them it was another example of the white man persecuting the black man. i remember trying to explain to people in melbourne on twitter how bad the problem is over here and i was branded racist!!!! they didnt believe me that there were any issues at all and it was just a racist government moving in to kick people off their land.

yet there's not even a whimper about the systemic child abuse and domestic violence in those communities and how the justice system has failed the victims and created a situation where there will be even more victims.

have a read of this then tell me what you think of those protesters:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-29/roebourne-the-heart-in-the-darkness/8842220

 

[gringo2011]

spot on

one of the most ignorant displays of activism i have seen was when the WA government moved to shut down a number of very remote problem communities. you then had a bunch of people in melbourne going with mass protests in the CBD. it was utterly absurd and showed how far removed they are from some of the problems facing remote communities in WA, but to them it was another example of the white man persecuting the black man. i remember trying to explain to people in melbourne on twitter how bad the problem is over here and i was branded racist!!!! they didnt believe me that there were any issues at all and it was just a racist government moving in to kick people off their land.

yet there's not even a whimper about the systemic child abuse and domestic violence in those communities and how the justice system has failed the victims and created a situation where there will be even more victims.

have a read of this then tell me what you think of those protesters:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-29/roebourne-the-heart-in-the-darkness/8842220

I get where you are coming from but it's not really an easy thing to work out the causes of the disadvantage. White people have had a habit of sending indigenous people out to the margins then wanting the land back. In Vic we had them in reserves in the outer burbs, as soon as the land was wanted back they sent them to the country where they would be out of sight and we could sell their land. When Indigenous people held a lot of land in reserve in WA the government had an intervention and took custody of their land so they could sell the minerals.

Plenty of disadvantage was cause by poorly thought out intervention or out right abuse from white people. Now it's not so easy to justify anything that looks like it might be poorly thought out or deliberately abusive. The intervention hasn't exactly fixed anything. Cashless welfare doesn't stop disadvantage either, it treats people like they are idiots and can't look after themselves.

Basically we helped create a disaster and now don't know how to fix it but our history makes it hard for us to justify some of the stuff we do to them. Teaching them good lifeskill, having some of them get educated and take back a culture of success etc are all ideals but hard to make happen.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

spot on

one of the most ignorant displays of activism i have seen was when the WA government moved to shut down a number of very remote problem communities. you then had a bunch of people in melbourne going with mass protests in the CBD. it was utterly absurd and showed how far removed they are from some of the problems facing remote communities in WA, but to them it was another example of the white man persecuting the black man. i remember trying to explain to people in melbourne on twitter how bad the problem is over here and i was branded racist!!!! they didnt believe me that there were any issues at all and it was just a racist government moving in to kick people off their land.

yet there's not even a whimper about the systemic child abuse and domestic violence in those communities and how the justice system has failed the victims and created a situation where there will be even more victims.

have a read of this then tell me what you think of those protesters:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-29/roebourne-the-heart-in-the-darkness/8842220

Yeah people in Inner Melbourne seem to be on the bandwagon for any cause they can find, along with keeping themselves isolated from most of the issues they are protesting about.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah people in Inner Melbourne seem to be on the bandwagon for any cause they can find, along with keeping themselves isolated from most of the issues they are protesting about.

They probably do more to change shit than complaining about them doing something. If everyone just turns their back politicians just ignore it too. There are major issues that need addressing as you can see in that article. A lot of the lack of good parenting was from when the kids were institutionalised in the previous generations so have no parenting skills themselves. Priests and authorities sexually and physically abused them and they have grown up with a pervading culture.


But they should all just get over it and hippies are just latte sipping dole bludgers with bleeding hearts.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

They probably do more to change shit than complaining about them doing something. If everyone just turns their back politicians just ignore it too. There are major issues that need addressing as you can see in that article. A lot of the lack of good parenting was from when the kids were institutionalised in the previous generations so have no parenting skills themselves. Priests and authorities sexually and physically abused them and they have grown up with a pervading culture.


But they should all just get over it and hippies are just latte sipping dole bludgers with bleeding hearts.

Can you verify that?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Can you verify that?

Do you understand WHY Aboriginal children were removed from their homes. ( Not condoning it ).

Would you care to explain what the pre-colonisation "age of consent" was?
Was there a punishment for rape or violence against women?

but hey find a way to blame every single issue on the white man.

 

[gringo2011]

Do you understand WHY Aboriginal children were removed from their homes. ( Not condoning it ).

Would you care to explain what the pre-colonisation "age of consent" was?
Was there a punishment for rape or violence against women?

but hey find a way to blame every single issue on the white man.

Obviously I can't verify or back it up but I doubt I'll swing you around to the way I'm thinking anyway. I don't blame everything on anyone. It's just a pretty sad state of affairs. It isn't any one thing but a whole lot of little things that make it almost unfixable in any quick way.

I don't think they had a perfect society before us but they were self actualised and had a better standard of living in the most part. I don't think the Incas or Aztecs were perfect but they were still destroyed by Europeans deciding that they had more idea of how things should be done and using it as an excuse to strip them of their valuables and in the process taking them from advanced to disadvantaged.

 

[CursingFijian]

*

No that's not how the term INVASION. Is used. The meaning is being perverted to suit the cause. I posted a definition of it

Your definition kind of described what happened.

SOME of the aboriginals were racist. Some were very warlike , so xenophobic they wouldn't even suffer other tribes. Some of them threw spears at Capt Cook just for being there. Others were friendlier. They were NOT some weird race of peaceful nature loving environmental do-gooders.

I think you could describe warring tribes as savage, but I'm not sure they're racist. Kind of like saying I hate Fijians who support Collingwood because I'm racist.

Your words reflect a dim view of pre-European aboriginal life (you would be horrified by pre-European Fijians). One could argue in hind sight that they had a very valid reason to try and keep Captain Cook away. It was Cook after all who claimed possession (not sovereignty) of Terra Australis after declaring it Terra Nullis. Captain Arthur Phillips (who led the first fleet) own diaries contradict that claim completely as he records sailing into various harbours in Australia.

The settlers did not arrive with an agenda to displace the Aboriginals. Many of the conflicts were initiated by Aboriginal tribes. Others were pure culture clash , put a redneck sheepfarmer near a tribe of natives who are used to catching whatever food they can find.

Captain Phillips early instructions cannot be found (along with other key instruments that indigenous Australians would love to get their hands on so they might be able to form a legal argument within the framework of Australian law as derived from English law). But the lore around it suggests that he was tasked with protecting aboriginal lives and livlihoods, and I think most agree that the experience of aborigines in NSW was much less violent than in Victoria, Western Australia and Tasmania. But make no bones about it. Captain Phillips came. He built settlements. He homed settlers there. He armed them to the teeth. And at the very first signs of resistance to land claims, he mobilized a militia to mercilessly suppress indigenous populations. Surely this doesn't happen in the modern world now, does it?

The biggest tragedy was disease, introduced to a people that had little exposure and therefore little immunity.

No. The biggest tragedy was illegal possession of a land inhabited by an estimated population of 1,500,000 indigenous Australians. Everything that follows from that (disease, devastation, genocide) is just a by-product of that initial wrong.

The way its going history will soon be saying that John Phillip rocked up with a ship full off Sherman tanks.

Who is this John Phillip that you speak of? And why would he bring Sherman tanks, when clearly light sabers are easier to transport by sea?

---------------------------------------------
We don't like having big businesses here, but its businesses that innovate. If someone at Holden had an innovative idea, it was immediately rolled out to the GM factory in China. If Someone at Toyota Australia had a great idea, it got implemented in the Thailand plant.

So who is going to innovate? Of course scientists had their funding slashed. They invent something. Sell it for a price , not enough to cover the research, to an overseas country who capitalise on it.
The days of oh look i've invented the Hills Hoist are long gone. Big corporations have patents for just about every harebrained idea out there and it costs too much to patent anyway. Innovative students get jobs in K-Mart.

Here is one good example about why you don't want to be an Australian based company. There are plenty of other reasons.
Gearbox manufacturer in Albury needs to find more customers since Australian market is down to Ford and declining.
Find new customer Sanyong.
Sanyong go broke , declare bankruptcy under Korean law. They get to write off their debt.
Gearbox manufacturer goes bust because biggest customer doesn't pay their bill.
Under Korean law Sanyong are able to keep trading.
Under Australian law Sanyong are able to purchase the company that went broke because of them.

I did about $30,000 dollars worth of work on a multi-storey set of apartments for a large Australian building company.
The builder went bankrupt.
They appointed a liquidator who locked up the site.
The liquidator was paid $600 per hour. The 20 year old who put the chains on the gates and did a site inventory was paid $150 an hour.
They seized my tools. They seized $8,000 dollars worth of building material I delivered to site as part of my contract.
The owner of the property engaged a new builder to finish the job.
The new builder used my materials to complete the job.
I have yet to be paid any amount as compensation, but I expect 10 cents in the dollar

There is injustice everywhere in this capitalist system. I get paid $60 an hour to build stuff. Some get paid $600 an hour to shut stuff down.

 

[StCicatriz]

I get where you are coming from but it's not really an easy thing to work out the causes of the disadvantage. White people have had a habit of sending indigenous people out to the margins then wanting the land back. In Vic we had them in reserves in the outer burbs, as soon as the land was wanted back they sent them to the country where they would be out of sight and we could sell their land. When Indigenous people held a lot of land in reserve in WA the government had an intervention and took custody of their land so they could sell the minerals.

Plenty of disadvantage was cause by poorly thought out intervention or out right abuse from white people. Now it's not so easy to justify anything that looks like it might be poorly thought out or deliberately abusive. The intervention hasn't exactly fixed anything. Cashless welfare doesn't stop disadvantage either, it treats people like they are idiots and can't look after themselves.

Basically we helped create a disaster and now don't know how to fix it but our history makes it hard for us to justify some of the stuff we do to them. Teaching them good lifeskill, having some of them get educated and take back a culture of success etc are all ideals but hard to make happen.

agree completely. its an incredibly tough situation. you are correct on the forceful acquisition of land and the NIMBY mentality.

i can guarantee you if what was happening in Roebourne was happening in a Melbourne suburb it would be a massive story. people wouldnt be protesting the proposed removal of government services but instead demanding the removal of the offenders and greater police intervention/stronger courts.

i draw the line at the abuse/violence. you just have to go in there and completely remove the offenders. regardless of how it may be perceived or what the history might be. its a non negotiable. if you dont do that then you end up with what is happening at Roebourne right now, where it ends up being tolerated and accepted. you'll have decades of systemic abuse, where it ends up ingrained into the local culture.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

ANY day you set as a commemoration of Australia as a nation can be considered offensive if you follow your argument.
Its the actual nation of Australia that you are finding offensive. The guilt is implicit.
The date is not synonymous with any particular event except the raising of a British Flag to mark the founding of the Settlement.
What significance would that day or event have had with the indigenous population of the time.


In those colonial times British settlement was probably not the worst fate.
SOMEONE was going to settle Australia.
One of the things that stirred up the Americans into civil war was directive not to encroach onto Indian Land.

I know Captain Cook ordered some natives to be shot at. Non-lethal buckshot.
There was no conflict for months after the raising of the flag.
__________________________________________________
Violence between Indigenous Australians and Europeans began several months after the First Fleet established Sydney on 26 January 1788. The local Indigenous people became suspicious when the British began to clear land and catch fish, and in May 1788 five convicts were killed and an Indigenous man was wounded. The British grew increasingly concerned when groups of up to three hundred Indigenous people were sighted at the outskirts of the settlement in June. Despite this, Phillip attempted to avoid conflict, and forbade reprisals after being speared in 1790. He did, however, authorise two punitive expeditions in December 1790 after his huntsman was killed by an Indigenous warrior named Pemulwuy, but neither was successful
____________________________________________________
This is not the format of an invasion.
This is no more an invasion than boat people settling in Australia.

thats incorrect the whole premiss of change the date is just that changing the date ... no one is saying there shouldnt be a national day the debate is if the national day should be linked to the date white man claimed this land off the aboriginals .. how the day an english man raised the english flag on australian soil is celebrated as the national day of australia is beyond me ... its not the day the land was discovered , its not the day we became a nation... you want a day to celebrate australia how bout May 26 ? thats the day Australia admitted that they were sorry for the treatment of the aboriginal people ..

as i have said the landing of the first fleet was not the worst of the treatment that the aboriginals faced but it was the start of the line for poor treatment...

if you seriously believe that last line of your comment then you are truely deluded ... refugee boats looking for assylum is so very very distant from british naval ships coming to claim land on behalf of King George III...
i also dont think the 200 refugees arriving are very likely to steal aussie children or send people to death camps...

 

[VDS66]

Yep, kept locals employed, meant money stayed local, prices were more expensive but kept the second hand market going which is actually better for the environment than manufacturing a shit load of cars with a 5 year life span.

Globalisation is a con that helps very few but the ultra wealthy and big companies. It has the effect of destroying local economies like in the US, which lead to people like Trump who promise to turn it back to how it all was. Chinese manufacturing workers are having their time in the sun until manufacture there gets expensive then they will move it some where por with low wages or make it all mechanised so that labour isn't needed.

The US has started into the inevitable decline that globalisation has on the general populations living standards. We are a fair way behind but eventually it will hit.

I think there is too much knowing the cost but not the value going on.

I have said it before but life isn't a business and society isn't there to support the economy.

A profits first approach will never create a secure and prosperous society. The past 30 years have proven this to be the case.

As you correctly state, subsidies to the car industry kept jobs, money and taxes in Australia... And the net return to government coffers via income tax and gst far exceeded the subsidies.

So then it comes down to ideology and your view of a governments role in helping the economy.

Governments are not here to make a profit.

They are here to invest and encourage the diversification of skills and education in order for us to adapt to the new economy.

I always recall Clive Palmer on QA... He was asked why he didn't invest in renewable energy.

His answer was that there wasn't enough profit in it.

There in a nutshell was the reason for our malaise...

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Roebourne is a prime example of a self defeating process... making a generation of people who are dependant on goverment assistance .. these people were not living they were just being.. there was no future no way out no ambition nothing just day in day out the same the problem would not go away just because it was out of sight it would not go away with the goverment just throwing money at it the abused were becoming abusers it was a cycle of addiction abuse and violence.. im not an expert on how to fix the problem but what was happening out there needed to stop one way or the other has it improved the situation now the community has been closed or has it just spread it out so its not as noticable ?

 

[VDS66]

Do you understand WHY Aboriginal children were removed from their homes. ( Not condoning it ).

Would you care to explain what the pre-colonisation "age of consent" was?
Was there a punishment for rape or violence against women?

but hey find a way to blame every single issue on the white man.

Lol...

Who the **** are we to impose our moral values on other cultures?

I'm sure if we look hard enough, the white fella has plenty to be ashamed of when it comes to treating women.

Fmd until the 1990s it was still legal to rape your wife in some states.

This shit knows no cultural boundaries.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

No that's not how the term INVASION. Is used. The meaning is being perverted to suit the cause. I posted a definition of it

Your definition kind of described what happened.

SOME of the aboriginals were racist. Some were very warlike , so xenophobic they wouldn't even suffer other tribes. Some of them threw spears at Capt Cook just for being there. Others were friendlier. They were NOT some weird race of peaceful nature loving environmental do-gooders.

I think you could describe warring tribes as savage, but I'm not sure they're racist. Kind of like saying I hate Fijians who support Collingwood because I'm racist.

Your words reflect a dim view of pre-European aboriginal life (you would be horrified by pre-European Fijians). One could argue in hind sight that they had a very valid reason to try and keep Captain Cook away. It was Cook after all who claimed possession (not sovereignty) of Terra Australis after declaring it Terra Nullis. Captain Arthur Phillips (who led the first fleet) own diaries contradict that claim completely as he records sailing into various harbours in Australia.

The settlers did not arrive with an agenda to displace the Aboriginals. Many of the conflicts were initiated by Aboriginal tribes. Others were pure culture clash , put a redneck sheepfarmer near a tribe of natives who are used to catching whatever food they can find.

Captain Phillips early instructions cannot be found (along with other key instruments that indigenous Australians would love to get their hands on so they might be able to form a proper legal argument). But the lore around it suggests that he was tasked with protecting aboriginal lives and livlihoods, and I think most agree that the experience of aborigines in NSW was much less violent than in Victoria, Western Australia and Tasmania. But make no bones about it. Captain Phillips came. He built settlements. He homed settlers there. He armed them to the teeth. And at the very first signs of resistance to land claims, he mobilized a militia to mercilessly suppress indigenous populations. Surely this doesn't happen in the modern world now, does it?

The biggest tragedy was disease, introduced to a people that had little exposure and therefore little immunity.

No. The biggest tragedy was illegal possession of a land inhabited by an estimated population of 1,500,000 indigenous Australians. Everything that follows from that (disease, devastation, genocide) is just a by-product of that initial wrong.

The way its going history will soon be saying that John Phillip rocked up with a ship full off Sherman tanks.

Who is this John Phillip that you speak of? And why would he bring Sherman tanks, when clearly light sabers are easier to transport by sea?

---------------------------------------------
We don't like having big businesses here, but its businesses that innovate. If someone at Holden had an innovative idea, it was immediately rolled out to the GM factory in China. If Someone at Toyota Australia had a great idea, it got implemented in the Thailand plant.

So who is going to innovate? Of course scientists had their funding slashed. They invent something. Sell it for a price , not enough to cover the research, to an overseas country who capitalise on it.
The days of oh look i've invented the Hills Hoist are long gone. Big corporations have patents for just about every harebrained idea out there and it costs too much to patent anyway. Innovative students get jobs in K-Mart.

Here is one good example about why you don't want to be an Australian based company. There are plenty of other reasons.
Gearbox manufacturer in Albury needs to find more customers since Australian market is down to Ford and declining.
Find new customer Sanyong.
Sanyong go broke , declare bankruptcy under Korean law. They get to write off their debt.
Gearbox manufacturer goes bust because biggest customer doesn't pay their bill.
Under Korean law Sanyong are able to keep trading.
Under Australian law Sanyong are able to purchase the company that went broke because of them.

I did about $30,000 dollars worth of work on a multi-storey set of apartments for a large Australian building company.
The builder went bankrupt.
They appointed a liquidator who locked up the site.
The liquidator was paid $600 per hour. The 20 year old who put the chains on the gates and did a site inventory was paid $150 an hour.
They seized my tools. They seized $8,000 dollars worth of building material I delivered to site as part of my contract.
The owner of the property engaged a new builder to finish the job.
The new builder used my materials to complete the job.
I have yet to be paid any amount as compensation, but I expect 10 cents in the dollar

There is injustice everywhere in this capitalist system. I get paid $60 an hour to build stuff. Some get paid $600 an hour to shut stuff down.

You missed my point on the business with Sanyong.
If Sanyong were an Australian company they would have died.
As a Korean company , they took control of an Australian company, making it then a foreign owned company. There's not much reason to have an Australian based company.

Sucks what happened to you, under law if you'd had proof of the ownership of the stuff at the site you could have claimed it back from the liquidator's but practically who the hell photographs and documents their tools every day. The company i work for had a customer go under shortly after we shipped them parts. We had terms and conditions that we retained ownership of the product until such time they were paid for, and because of this we were able to claim it back.

I'm not going to keep going about the other stuff. But 1.5 Million Aboriginals? That would be close to the highest population estimate made by anyone. And of course if i dispute that number i'm an arseh*le for trying to downplay the genocide that took place.

https://web.archive.org/web/2013111...on and Climate Change in Australia Final.pdf

 

[MacMum]

It's all in the past.....not one person alive in this country today can change what happened back then. We would if we could, but we can't. Sorry's have been officially given. We can't keep saying sorry forever.

At some point the indigenous community have to take responsibility for the abuses taking place in some of the remote communities. We the "whites", can't do anything about that either......if we went in and took away the abused victims we would be accused of stealing the children, thus creating another stolen generation.......it has to be up to the people themselves.

Indigenous people have the same rights as other Australians, it might be difficult but ultimately it is up to the individual to take those rights and try to make a life for themselves. It can be hard to do, but that happens for other Australians as well.

Kudos to the elders of the communities for at least trying to turn things around and protect the kids.

I firmly believe that everyone regardless of colour, race or religion is to be congratulated for "having a go" This country gives them that opportunity.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Lol...

Who the **** are we to impose our moral values on other cultures?

I'm sure if we look hard enough, the white fella has plenty to be ashamed of when it comes to treating women.

Fmd until the 1990s it was still legal to rape your wife in some states.

This shit knows no cultural boundaries.

Every society imposes their moral values on others.
Its bullshit if we persecute Harvey Weinstein but turn a blind eye to child abuse because its cultural.

I could say it was British culture to settle the earth and kick out the indigenous population. Who are we to impose our moral values on that British culture?