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Random Random Thoughts Rebooted

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J_Moore said:
Why?
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Because they are not illegal.

Briefly, because I'm working, but illicit drugs =
Users and dealers filling up our prisons;
Outlaw gangs with their distribution networks, prostitution and associated violence;
Users breaking into homes to steal anything they can get their hands on.

Alcohol doesn't interest the underworld. And very few alcoholics do house breaks to steal a DVD they can swap for a cask.

I appreciate everyone's opinion on the matter, but this is mine.
 
MaxMinch said:
Because they are not illegal.

Briefly, because I'm working, but illicit drugs =
Users and dealers filling up our prisons;
Outlaw gangs with their distribution networks, prostitution and associated violence;
Users breaking into homes to steal anything they can get their hands on.

Alcohol doesn't interest the underworld.
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I feel you're very close to a moment of clarity on this issue.
 
J_Moore said:
I feel you're very close to a moment of clarity on this issue.
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I feel I am very close to the issue.

I do not, nor will I ever support decriminalisation.
 

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MaxMinch said:
I feel I am very close to the issue.

I do not, nor will I ever support decriminalisation.
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Fair enough. But I think it's important to recognise that all of the harms you identified that make illicit drugs different from alcohol exist solely because those drugs are criminalised.

I'm under no illusions about whether they're good for you, and don't touch them myself.
 
CD__ said:
Alcohol causes immeasurably more societal problems than recreational drugs though yet there is nobody advocating it being made illegal?
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wheres the source on this?

alcohol is more readily available

maybe we should conclude dickheads cause more problems than anyone or anything else
 
The King! said:
wheres the source on this?

alcohol is more readily available

maybe we should conclude dickheads cause more problems than anyone or anything else
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Yeh that's for sure. But the research is about the role of alcohol in assualt, rape, domestic abuse etc.
 
CD__ said:
Yeh that's for sure. But the research is about the role of alcohol in assualt, rape, domestic abuse etc.
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wheres the research sorry?
 
J_Moore said:
Your original statement was that all people who are willing to try 'party drugs' eventually move on to harder drugs. That is patently false, and not what any of those sources show.

The Conversation article you just linked to explicitly says "...the gateway theory starts to look flimsy when you consider the fact that not everyone who uses cannabis goes on to use heroin."

Almost hard drug users would have used party drugs first, and legal drugs before that. But you can't extrapolate from that "taking pingers means you will eventually inject smack", or "all people who drink alcohol will eventually use ice".
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I provided the newspaper article for balance. Bit disappointing that you would use it to try to prove your point because you clearly misunderstood what it said.
All drug addicts start off on the small stuff. It is the nature of addiction.
One of the studies makes links between risky behaviour and drug addiction. Trying party drugs I would assume is risky behaviour.

The picture is that if you try party drugs you are likely to try harder drugs. With ice being so readily available , high chance of trying ice. Ice is addictive like nobody's business. You don't need to be Einstein to work out what happens next.
 
CD__ said:
Alcohol causes immeasurably more societal problems than recreational drugs though yet there is nobody advocating it being made illegal?
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Are you saying that because alcohol causes more problems it is ok that people use recreational drugs?

I don't believe there is a simple solution.
One thing that I think is really important is that we need to teach our kids that you don't need drugs to have a good time.
 
Number37 said:
I provided the newspaper article for balance. Bit disappointing that you would use it to try to prove your point because you clearly misunderstood what it said.
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No, the article is clearly arguing that the 'gateway drug' idea is a gross simplification of a much more complex issue. The key factor for the author is 'individual vulnerability'. It also highlights how the criminalisation of relatively trivial drug use pushes users much deeper into a criminal culture.

Number37 said:
One of the studies makes links between risky behaviour and drug addiction. Trying party drugs I would assume is risky behaviour.
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Did you even read the abstract? That study wasn't looking at previous drug use. It was looking at factors like early sexual experience, violent victimisation, homelessness, school delinquency, etc. Essentially, 'individual vulnerability' questions like those identified in The Conversation piece.

Number37 said:
The picture is that if you try party drugs you are likely to try harder drugs. With ice being so readily available , high chance of trying ice. Ice is addictive like nobody's business. You don't need to be Einstein to work out what happens next.
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That's not the picture at all. The vast majority of users of cannabis, cocaine, MDMA etc do not go on to use heroin or ice. Just as the vast majority of drinkers don't go on to use cannabis.
 
J_Moore said:
No, the article is clearly arguing that the 'gateway drug' idea is a gross simplification of a much more complex issue. The key factor for the author is 'individual vulnerability'. It also highlights how the criminalisation of relatively trivial drug use pushes users much deeper into a criminal culture.



Did you even read the abstract? That study wasn't looking at previous drug use. It was looking at factors like early sexual experience, violent victimisation, homelessness, school delinquency, etc. Essentially, 'individual vulnerability' questions like those identified in The Conversation piece.



That's not the picture at all. The vast majority of users of cannabis, cocaine, MDMA etc do not go on to use heroin or ice. Just as the vast majority of drinkers don't go on to use cannabis.
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Whats your experience Bulldog ?
 

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J_Moore said:
No, the article is clearly arguing that the 'gateway drug' idea is a gross simplification of a much more complex issue. The key factor for the author is 'individual vulnerability'. It also highlights how the criminalisation of relatively trivial drug use pushes users much deeper into a criminal culture.



Did you even read the abstract? That study wasn't looking at previous drug use. It was looking at factors like early sexual experience, violent victimisation, homelessness, school delinquency, etc. Essentially, 'individual vulnerability' questions like those identified in The Conversation piece.



That's not the picture at all. The vast majority of users of cannabis, cocaine, MDMA etc do not go on to use heroin or ice. Just as the vast majority of drinkers don't go on to use cannabis.
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What motivates people to try the soft stuff is an important piece of the puzzle. That was the focus of a lot of studies of drug addiction in the last 20 years.
As The Conversation piece points out, there are many factors it isn't as simple as starting off with recreational drug use.
Yes, not all recreational drug users become addicts but all addicts started off on the soft stuff.
If addicts didn't try the soft stuff they wouldn't become addicts. Simples!

I think you are being dismissive of the role that recreational drug use plays in the wider problem of drug addiction.
Recreational drug use I WOULD ARGUE normalises drug use and in effect creates a market for drugs that allows drug dealers to peddle their shit.
Like any other industry, it is all about upselling.
Why sell pot when you can make more money from other drugs?
Why grow pot which requires much more capital than producing ice?

It is a vicious circle and like it or not recreational drug use and particularly recreational drug users are as much of the problem as the hard core crack addicts.
I can understand why a crack addict does what they do, mostly a series of unfortunate events lands them in that dark place.
The d-heads that use recreational drugs simply to have a good time are just that, d-heads. No excuse for it. No excusing it. It is the one time in the whole drug addiction process that they actually have the faculties to make the right decision and choose to justify it with 'having a good time'.
That is BS.
What is the answer? I don't know. You can't throw the cool kids in jail, that will f*ck them up even further. You can't do nothing.
One thing we can do is stop making excuses for them by normalising it with the recreational/party drug moniker, as if it is different to someone smoking crack.
 
bedford said:
This started about drugs at some event, NOT GROG. By the way grog is legal.
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The most irrelevant point about the entire issue.

Smoking kills people
Alcohol kills people

But you keep pushing that barrow.
 
MaxMinch said:
Because they are not illegal.
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Irrelevant.

Either a substance is damaging or it's not. Regardless of it's legal status.

Heroin is illegal, Diamorphine is not. (I'll give you a hint, they are the same drug).

I respect where other people are coming from, but hysteria (Drugs are bad) and hypocrisy (except for these ones) really hit a nerve with me.
 

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bedford said:
Im not pushing anything, don't derail what I started on about. Are you a parent, probably not.
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Ahh the good old, you must have kids to have an opinion.

Having kids means you have had unprotected sex and nothing else.
 
sataris said:
Ahh the good old, you must have kids to have an opinion.

Having kids means you have had unprotected sex and nothing else.
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What a pathetic reply. I tell you what, some people on here know what I know about this, one's I trust, now goodbye.
 
bedford said:
What a pathetic reply. I tell you what, some people on here know what I know about this, one's I trust, now goodbye.
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Just as I thought.

No idea.
 

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