Rate the Players

[SupersonicDocker]

If we are grading the players on 2009...

Duffield : A+

Only player on our list who has actually stepped up to another level this year.

Tarrant : A-

Only player who has improved on his value to the team. If albeit a different position to what we forked out an arm and a leg for. Oddly enough though how big of a hole would we be in without him down back this year!

Hasleby : B+

Has shown that he worked hard to get his body right for his club. Has stepped back into the leadership role we have sorely missed through the middle. Would be an A but he is a champion therefore you expect him to be a leader anyway.

 

[SupersonicDocker]

SOLOMON A B!!!!!!! surely no.

As hard at the ball as he is, he still makes way too many errors with the ball in his hands or by foot. Not good enough for a veteran with no pace.

However i will say this, people overlooked how effective he was in the last minutes of that 3rd quarter against Richmond when he was moved into the middle.

 

[yakamoto]

I agree with Super D that Duffield and Tarrant are worthy of As both for the improvement they have shown this season and the quality of their football. Then we have a fair group of Bs - those who have been consistently amongst the team's best although not necessarily performing at their personal very best: Haselby, Pavlich, Johnson, Mundy, Schammer, Sandilands. Most of the rest of the regulars are at C level. Those teetering on slipping to D level are Thornton, Dodd, Grover and Solomon. They will not be regulars in a successful Fremantle team.

 

[Freo_4eva]

Look at Geelong, Hawthorn and St Kilda.

These are the teams we want to emulate.

Now tell me, would Dodd get a game with them.

No.

Harry Taylor... Campbell Brown... Stephen Gilham... Max Hudgteon

All every average users of the ball i would have said... and dont exactly fill you with confidence when they are running thru the defensive 50... difference is they only get it 8 or so times a game... not 20-25 such as Dodd does, which IMO is a result of the lack of depth around him and in recent times lack of confidence to move the ball quickly out of there.

Dodd is necessary going forward, and with any luck as others around him grow (Suban, Duffield, Broughton etc) he wont need to be the exit route out of defence

 

[masai]

i reckon your being unduly harsh on pav, and rediculously soft on dodd.
i reckon other than gilmore, browne and head... dodd would be fighting for the most useless player on our list

pav is playing different position to what he normally would, i dont see him putting him no effort, i just think that he is being played out of his best position, he needs to play full forward, Centre half forward.... not in the middle

i agree on duffield, he has won me over

I can see where you are coming from with your comments on Dodd, but at the moment is there someone else who can fill his role ?. Against Port he was forced to play as a tall key position back, not his forte. I agree he could be pushed aside if we have another player or two who can fill his role.

In some ways I am probably being harsh on Pav, he is a beauty, but I just have a gut feeling that he can give alot more. He is like a vehicle that can do 300 miles an hour, but is only doing 280. It looks pretty impressive, but we all know there is some more in the tank.

I think very highly of Pav, but as a supporter I'm urging him onto the next level.

 

[Alfonz]

Harry Taylor... Campbell Brown... Stephen Gilham... Max Hudgteon

All every average users of the ball i would have said... and dont exactly fill you with confidence when they are running thru the defensive 50... difference is they only get it 8 or so times a game... not 20-25 such as Dodd does, which IMO is a result of the lack of depth around him and in recent times lack of confidence to move the ball quickly out of there.

Dodd is necessary going forward, and with any luck as others around him grow (Suban, Duffield, Broughton etc) he wont need to be the exit route out of defence

Are you serious? Those blokes bring a hell of a lot more to the table than Dodd. His disposal and decision making are a lot worse than those guys as well.

Dodd is simply not necessary going forward. At the end of this forward process, if we have done it correctly, then he will not be there. So he should not be there now. Short term bandaid solutions never work.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

I can see where you are coming from with your comments on Dodd, but at the moment is there someone else who can fill his role ?. Against Port he was forced to play as a tall key position back, not his forte. I agree he could be pushed aside if we have another player or two who can fill his role.

In some ways I am probably being harsh on Pav, he is a beauty, but I just have a gut feeling that he can give alot more. He is like a vehicle that can do 300 miles an hour, but is only doing 280. It looks pretty impressive, but we all know there is some more in the tank.

I think very highly of Pav, but as a supporter I'm urging him onto the next level.

fair enough, but how much do you think, if any, that his change in position has effected his form? in the past he may have only gotten 14-20 touches but kicked 5 goals and everyone raves, however now that he is in the middle, he gets 24 odd touches and only kicks 1-2 goals and people are unhappy..... in a way i agree with you, he COULD do more, if he was in the forwardline, but he is being forced to play out of position.... i just wish they would play him at CHF where we all know he is most damaging, but the injuries to rhys and crowley may prevent that

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

Are you serious? Those blokes bring a hell of a lot more to the table than Dodd. His disposal and decision making are a lot worse than those guys as well.

Dodd is simply not necessary going forward. At the end of this forward process, if we have done it correctly, then he will not be there. So he should not be there now. Short term bandaid solutions never work.

i agree, you cant compare dodd to these guys who are all well ahead of him in every aspect of the game

 

[Lach72]

Harry Taylor... Campbell Brown... Stephen Gilham... Max Hudgteon

All every average users of the ball i would have said... and dont exactly fill you with confidence when they are running thru the defensive 50... difference is they only get it 8 or so times a game... not 20-25 such as Dodd does, which IMO is a result of the lack of depth around him and in recent times lack of confidence to move the ball quickly out of there.

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare...to+Comparison&SelectedPlayers=1820,1604,1419,

Yeah...nah.

I would dispute that any of the players above use the ball as badly or have as many brain snaps as Dodd

Pro stats also has Dodd at 4.7 errors a game compared to 3.8 for Campbell Brown and 3.7 for Harry Taylor.
Both also offer significantly more on the rebound than Dodd

 

[Freo_4eva]

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare...to+Comparison&SelectedPlayers=1820,1604,1419,

Yeah...nah.

I would dispute that any of the players above use the ball as badly or have as many brain snaps as Dodd

Pro stats also has Dodd at 4.7 errors a game compared to 3.8 for Campbell Brown and 3.7 for Harry Taylor.
Both also offer significantly more on the rebound than Dodd

Yeah fair enough... not disputing that he s***s himself with the ball in his hand, but anyone who thinks he wont be playing every game this year and probably at least next year is kidding themselves.

And one less error per match compared to those two aint that bad IMO considering where the respective sides and their defences/midfields are at

 

[Boppo]

I think this thread more than any other drives home the fact that none of us really know what we are talking about. i think we crave the chat more than anything else. also I hope the players and coaching staff have been banned from viewing Bigfooty, I doubt Dodd, Head, murph et al are going to ru out rjuvenated after being toold ad nausem that they are sh1t by their own hard core fans.

 

[Sman-21]

Either we know what we are talking about or people from the club def read bigfooty.

Seems strange we were right about head getting 4-5 games to prove himself an wouldnt be dropped.
Then we said murphy should get that chance and he did.
Then we said campbell should get his 4-5 now and it happened.

Next will be gilmore

then drum

Im 99.95% positive dodd is staying and the defensive side of his game is rated pretty highly by the coaching staff.

 

[Ysaye]

Where they are right now, based on this year, last year and projections from WAFL work. Some of the WAFL players are rated on potential (or lack of it).

3 - Schammer: C
4 - Hase: B
5 - Ibbo: C
6 - Solly: C
7 - Peake: C
8 - Suban: C
9 - Drum: D
10 - Palmer: B
11 - Headland: B
12 - Brock: C
13 - Pratt: D
14 - Grover: C
15 - Crowley: C
16 - Mundy: B
17 - Ballantyne: C
18 - McPharlin: B
19 - Hinkley: D
20 - Tarrant: B
21 - Foster: D
22 - Thornton : D
23 - Mayne: C
24 - Campbell: D
25 - Dodd: C
26 - Kepler: D
27 - Gilmore: D
28 - Murphy: D
29 - Pav: A
30 - Clarke: C
31 - Sandi: A
32 - Hill: B
33 - Bucovaz: D
34 - Hall: D
35 - Ruffles: C
36 - Browne: D
37 - Johnson: C
38 - Walters: C
39 - Sibosado: D
40 - deBoer: C
41 - Duffield: C
42 - Head: F
43 - Roger: B
44 - Connelly: D
45 - Pearce: C
46 - Shepheard: D
47 - vanBerlo: D
48 - Broughton: C

There are a lot of players in the C, D category - I don't think some of the players are as bad as some of you think (both at the lower end and at the end where you a lot of supporters think "But that guy should do more!!!", but I also think that there are a lot of players that are good but not stars.

 

[kp junior]

Where they are right now, based on this year, last year and projections from WAFL work. Some of the WAFL players are rated on potential (or lack of it).

3 - Schammer: C
4 - Hase: B
5 - Ibbo: C
6 - Solly: C
7 - Peake: C
8 - Suban: C
9 - Drum: D
10 - Palmer: B
11 - Headland: B
12 - Brock: C
13 - Pratt: D
14 - Grover: C
15 - Crowley: C
16 - Mundy: B
17 - Ballantyne: C
18 - McPharlin: B
19 - Hinkley: D
20 - Tarrant: B
21 - Foster: D
22 - Thornton : D
23 - Mayne: C
24 - Campbell: D
25 - Dodd: C
26 - Kepler: D
27 - Gilmore: D
28 - Murphy: D
29 - Pav: A
30 - Clarke: C
31 - Sandi: A
32 - Hill: B
33 - Bucovaz: D
34 - Hall: D
35 - Ruffles: C
36 - Browne: D
37 - Johnson: C
38 - Walters: C
39 - Sibosado: D
40 - deBoer: C
41 - Duffield: C
42 - Head: F
43 - Roger: B
44 - Connelly: D
45 - Pearce: C
46 - Shepheard: D
47 - vanBerlo: D
48 - Broughton: C

There are a lot of players in the C, D category - I don't think some of the players are as bad as some of you think (both at the lower end and at the end where you a lot of supporters think "But that guy should do more!!!", but I also think that there are a lot of players that are good but not stars.

Under rating Ibbotson by a bit there, you think he's equal to Broughton/Pearce/Brock etc, i think the coaching staff would disagree. I'd say B comfortably. Otherwise pretty spot on

 

[dockers_bengals]

Pretty well spot on to me YSAYE.
Changes I would make to it are:Crowley D,Mundy C,Kepler C,Duffield B,Head D.
As usual everyone remembers players they don't like mistakes and not the times they give 100%,put their body on the line or save the team.

 

[E Shed]

I think this thread more than any other drives home the fact that none of us really know what we are talking about. i think we crave the chat more than anything else. also I hope the players and coaching staff have been banned from viewing Bigfooty, I doubt Dodd, Head, murph et al are going to ru out rjuvenated after being toold ad nausem that they are sh1t by their own hard core fans.

Most (if not all) of us make our judgements on the information available to the man in the street. I know that I go to all home games, watch them at least once to get the TV view. Away games depending on how bad we were I watch at least twice. I go to a selected WAFL game most weeks, always the one that has the most Freo players involved. I don't bother much with traditional footy media any more simply because almost inevitably I know more about the team than any journo because they have to be across 16 teams, I only care about one.

There is no doubt that there are subtleties in the gameplan and non dream team stats and performance indicators that the footy dept use when making the call on the team that we are simply not privy to hence the bewilderment of us here at some selections and non selections. Having said that sometimes I think we are bit ahead of the curve though simply because we really don't have anything invested at a personal level with the players so we are happy to call time on the career of someone like Head because all we see is the shite on the field. We simply don't know about the stuff the coaches see on the track that they desperately hope the player can show on the field.

We also, because we survive on hope, are far keener to see the new blood on the field where the footy dept want to wring some value from the experienced warriors. There have been several occasions this year when I've heard Harvey or one of assistants express genuine surprise at the performance level and value to the team of a Hill or a Suban or a DeBoer. Harvey seemed amazed at how good Walters was last week. I'm not sure why. Having watched him go around for Swans a few times it's blindingly obvious from over the fence that he is a seriously talented footballer. I saw him in the pre-season game at Subi (I think against the Eagles) and first couple of times he touched it I though, yeah he'll go alright when he gets his chance. I'm no football genius but I can recognise class when I see it.

Having said all that I find myself far more in tune with the current footy dept and I find the zeitgeist here is generally not too far off this year with selections other than the anomalies like Head which I've attempted to explain above. It's not (thank god) like the days of CC when the team was like the Australian Cricket Team, harder to get out of than in.

As an example I'm pretty sure that Harvey knows when he's got a good thing and will keep DeBoer for instance in the team no matter who else is available. I'm also reasonably confident he'll leave Walters in for a couple after that showing despite Ballantyne being fit.
Why? Because the team is playing like they want to win and not giving up. You can't buy that shit. Someone like CC was far more slave to process and theory and persisted with them often to the detriment of the team performance. Harvey to some extent is happy to let the team mould itself through natural selection.

In short I don't think we are as smart as we think we are but neither do I think we are as stupid as you imply we are.

 

[masai]

fair enough, but how much do you think, if any, that his change in position has effected his form? in the past he may have only gotten 14-20 touches but kicked 5 goals and everyone raves, however now that he is in the middle, he gets 24 odd touches and only kicks 1-2 goals and people are unhappy..... in a way i agree with you, he COULD do more, if he was in the forwardline, but he is being forced to play out of position.... i just wish they would play him at CHF where we all know he is most damaging, but the injuries to rhys and crowley may prevent that

I want him left at CHF.

I think we are pretty much singing from the same hymn book, but the one area Pav should look at is his second efforts.

He is still the Dockers number 1 man, but Sandi is quietly loping along behind him.

 

[estibador]

Good post E Shed.

I think we can all especially relate to this line:

I don't bother much with traditional footy media any more simply because almost inevitably I know more about the team than any journo because they have to be across 16 teams, I only care about one.

 

[sabre_ac]

As has been mentioned previously, the current problem with club is a result of a bundle of good draft picks we traded away over a number of seasons. With that in mind, we cannot expect to make up for at least 3 seasons of sitting out of the draft by overloading on picks in two.

We swung the axe last year and this year I wouldn't expect it to be anywhere near as bad. Players like Head, Drum, Gilmore etc will not be delisted simply because having more late draft picks is as much a gamble has hanging onto these guys.

Calling for Dodd to be delisted baffles me as the guy whether we like to admit it or not is in our starting 22....Who cares if he couldn't get a game in the Geelong or Hawthorn side, that point is irrelevant. They didn't throw away draft picks (Hawthorn actively sought out high draft picks).

It's going to be a slow rebuild guys, delisting another swag of players and throwing newly draft kids into the side next season just causes frustration and hardly makes a strong case for the likes of Pavlich and Schammer to stay on at the club.

 

[prattsta]

I agree with the jist of that Sabre.

When you look at who is out of contract this season (15 in total) it's not unreasonable for people to predict another severe cut though. It's highly unlikely we'll add another 14 new players to the list, but 7-8 wouldn't be a suprise. That's over 20% of the list and more than double the minimum requirement.

Given how our rookies have performed this season the club doesn't actually need to go all that deep into the national draft to replace it's de-listees either. Broughton & de Boer look more than capable. Even Pratt, Van Berlo and Pearce wouldn't be out of place on the main list. They obvioulsy all won't get upgraded but it's an option.

Looking forward to 2010 when we have a lot of big names out of contract, Pavlich & Palmer for example, the club will probably want contract flexibility as well. Having a bunch of mid-aged fringe players on 2-3 year contracts, earning $100k-$150k won't be ideal. Neither will having those same players (about 10) coming out of contract in a year with draft concessions heading to the GC.

I guess what I'm saying is, it may just be a case of timing as much as anything. There may not be a better opportunity than now, for the club to get rid of some of these guys.