Raves..

[Santos L Helper]

I've got to reply to some of these comments with some facts.

Bee, the majority of people who break into homes are NOT smack addicts. The majority of people who break into homes that we hear about are smack addicts. There is absolutely no modern research to back up the 'addictive personality' theory......absolutely none. You also suggest that any recreational use of illicit drug will eventually lead to heroin use. This is simply not true. There is a huge gap between recreational use and addiction, in fact most common psychoactive drugs used by people before they tried heroin were alcohol and tobacco.

TT, Alcohol and tobacco are stronger drugs than heroin etc. Maybe you mean the more illegal the drug, the weaker the mind, in your opinion?
More people die from purer heroin rather than cheap heroin. It is a myth that cheap heroin kills more. Surely the more people addicted to a drug would indicate that it's stronger? Then alcohol and tobacco cover that criteria. I agree that alcohol is a weakness, and I believe that I have this weakness too. The way I see it is that any weakness is as bad as another weakness where this subject is concerned.
I agree that it is stupid, rather than weak.
The tougher policing may drive up the price, but all this means is that crime rises and more addicts then resort to other drugs, like prescription painkillers, which are infinitely more dangerous.
I know that you would say that it's their risk, but you know I'll disagree with you on that too.

Macca, you may be very surprised at the amount of recreational heroin users in society. Just because we don't know them doesn't mean they aren't there.

No persoanl attacks here. As I said, I am in a position to give some facts, so I've done that. This subject is a tough one.

 

[TigerTank]

Drinking can be a weakness.

But there are worse forms of weakness - especially self-pride.

"I am stronger (better) than other people so I will never be addicted to drugs!" - I wonder how many people have thought that? Look where their pride and conceit gets them.

Self-pride is king of all weakness.

 

[TigerTank]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper
I've got to reply to some of these comments with some facts.

TT, Alcohol and tobacco are stronger drugs than heroin etc.

Rubbish!

In purest form nicotine is more addictive, but given that nicotine is only a small fraction of what makes up a cigarette, while heroin is injected directly into the bloodstream, the above statement is false.

Cheap heroin DOES KILL MORE. Not because it is a cheaper grade - but because when the price of heroin is low it is often SOLD IN PURER FORM. Two years ago the price of heroin dropped to a point where it wasn't worth the dealer's time to mix it with impurities.

The reason the heroin death-toll is lower now than two years ago is because there is world-wide shortage of heroin now. THIS IS FACT.

 

[Santos L Helper]

Originally posted by TigerTank


Rubbish!

In purest form nicotine is more addictive, but given that nicotine is only a small fraction of what makes up a cigarette, while heroin is injected directly into the bloodstream, the above statement is false.

Cheap heroin DOES KILL MORE. Not because it is a cheaper grade - but because when the price of heroin is low it is often SOLD IN PURER FORM. Two years ago the price of heroin dropped to a point where it wasn't worth the dealer's time to mix it with impurities.

The reason the heroin death-toll is lower now than two years ago is because there is world-wide shortage of heroin now. THIS IS FACT.

Your comment on nicotine is wrong. Even in non pure form it is more addictive, and then the impurities are just as deadly. Arsenic, lead, etc are all added to cigarettes to 'enhance' the experience. Nicotine IS more addictive than heroin............this is FACT

I take it then that you agree that the more pure the heroin the more dangerous? Your earlier statment implied that cheap meant impure.

 

[TigerTank]

Originally posted by glenferrie boy


You can class these drugs however you want.. but show me evidence that small to moderate use of speed/ecstacy lead to long term effects and i'll listen.

USA State Department release

http://www.usemb.gov.do/IRC/drugs/ecstacy.htm

Ecstasy is toxic to the human nervous system. Scientific studies have found that ecstasy use produces long-term -- perhaps permanent -- damage to the brain's ability to release serotonin, which regulates mood, body temperature, and memory. Use of the drug often leads to dramatic increases in body temperature exceeding 100 degrees Fahrenheit, which in turn can lead to muscle breakdown and kidney and cardiovascular system failure. The greatest short-term dangers of ecstasy are hyperthermia -- which can result in fatal blood clotting -- and its ability to overload the heart, precipitating heart attacks, and strokes. According to statistics taken from hospital emergency rooms in the United States, ecstasy use resulted in some 2,850 emergency episodes in 1999; this figure dwarfs by more than ten-fold the 253 reported emergencies attributed to the drug in 1994. Recent studies show that chronic MDMA users often experience worn teeth, cracked tooth enamel, and jaw problems. Worse, ecstasy produces a significant increase in heart rate and blood pressure which may lead to hypertension. Depth perception is also impaired significantly, increasing the chances of accidents (particularly automobile accidents) under the influence of the drug. Moreover, ecstasy use can result in mental confusion, anxiety, panic attacks, depression, and paranoia. According to research, cognitive functions such as learning and memory can be permanently affected by even a few doses of the drug.

Hot dog.

 

[M29]

Originally posted by TigerTank
Drinking can be a weakness.

But there are worse forms of weakness - especially self-pride.

"I am stronger (better) than other people so I will never be addicted to drugs!" - I wonder how many people have thought that? Look where their pride and conceit gets them.

Self-pride is king of all weakness.

So you're saying we're all weak minded?!?

 

[TigerTank]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper


I take it then that you agree that the more pure the heroin the more dangerous? Your earlier statment implied that cheap meant impure.

Correct. My earlier statement DID NOT imply that cheap meant impure. Cheap means low (black) market price.

 

[Santos L Helper]

A US govt. study is hardly unbiased now TT. Anything from a govt. wanting prohibition is bound to be too biased to be taken seriously in the wider scientific community where unbiased reports are the required norm.

 

[Santos L Helper]

Originally posted by TigerTank


Correct. My earlier statement DID NOT imply that cheap meant impure. Cheap means low (black) market price.

The 'Oxford Dictionary' includes a definiton for cheap which states, "of low cost and quality". Hence my original interpretation.

 

[TigerTank]

Try this!


http://www.surgerydoor.co.uk/index.asp

“What are the long term effects of taking ecstasy?”


Basically no one really knows. The chemical name for ecstacy is MDMA and what we do know is that MDMA:

dramatically affects the brain chemistry of animals;

has also been linked to liver and kidney problems;

heavy long-term use may increase the chance of severe depression and other mental illnesses in later life.



In other words - not good! Bad for physical health, bad for mental health. Taking ecstacy will make you sick and can make you clinically unhappy.

And by the way. I'm not in the business of defending tobacco consumption. It kills more people than heroin precisely because it is legal.

 

[Santos L Helper]

Originally posted by TigerTank
Try this!


http://www.surgerydoor.co.uk/index.asp

“What are the long term effects of taking ecstasy?”


Basically no one really knows. The chemical name for ecstacy is MDMA and what we do know is that MDMA:

dramatically affects the brain chemistry of animals;

has also been linked to liver and kidney problems;

heavy long-term use may increase the chance of severe depression and other mental illnesses in later life.



In other words - not good! Bad for physical health, bad for mental health. Taking ecstacy will make you sick and can make you clinically unhappy.

And by the way. I'm not in the business of defending tobacco consumption. It kills more people than heroin precisely because it is legal.

Why is it legal? Because the govt makes billions in tax dollars. If the govt could tax ecstacy they would make the same lame attempts at restrictions, but basically leave it open slather.
All psychoactive drugs have negative effects. Anyone who thinks that ecstacy has no effects on health is deluding themselves. It comes down to whether you want to take that risk.

I have taken it and will probably continue to do so if I feel like it. I have done some studies and I know the risk, but it's MY risk.

 

[FIGJAM]

Oh oh, we have the big guns out *looks at TT*.

"Weak minded"? Maybe. Informed? Definitely.

Sorry Dad, but I'm not sure an informed choice shows a weak mind.

Just an opinion, but I'd like to rank the drugs I have used according to my perception of their harm (worst 1, less harmful 9). Just for the record, I think heroin/opiate products would be the most harmful. In fact I think it goes without saying.

Remember, just my opinion based on use and not propaganda:

1. Cigarettes = This crap has nearly all of my friends. It gives you cancer. 'Nuff said!
2. LSD = Whilst insightful, can be mentally very, very damaging.
3. Alcohol = Extremely addictive. Very messy drug (eg. fights, sickness)
4. Marijuana = Underestimated by its users, it has long term effects on the person's mental well-being.
5. Speed = Filth. Puts user on edge, often not in a pleasant way!
6. Ketamine = Hallucegenic properties can be dangerous and user is often dazed.
7. Ecstacy = Unknown substances in pill is the major worry, as well as hydration problems due to increased heart rate.
8. Cocaine = Very much like caffeine only $200/gram more expensive. Is addictive, but so's coffee. It ain't like in the movies!
9. Caffeine = Addictive. Ask any regular coffee drinker. Cheap though!

I've never done that before and I have even surprised myself!

Either way, Dad's (TT) is right. It's all bad for you. And so is Macca's, but we still eat it. And so is the pollution from a 351 V8, but we still drive them etc. etc.

I just reckon we have more important things to worry about than nightclub drugs.

 

[mandy]

Originally posted by Bee


Do you realise you are telling a child to shove crap up her nose?
What if someone did that to your daughter!

Oh for GODS SAKE!!!! Did you SEE the wink at the end of my comment? Or do you just see whatever you want to see that can enable you to get up on that soapbox you love to drag out?

 

[Macca19]

im happy they failed to mention the precautions you can take to stop most of that happening

Scientific studies have found that ecstasy use produces long-term -- perhaps permanent -- damage to the brain's ability to release serotonin, which regulates mood, body temperature, and memory.

Damage will only happen if you have a massive lack of or no serotonin (ie. after your peak/coming down from E). When you have low levels of serotonin your eating patterns change, moody, short term memory loss and often have trouble sleeping.
Ecstacy increases the use of serotonin, so once you are coming down you will have a lack of it in your brain. Therefore you need to replenish this lack of Serotonin. You can do this when coming down by eating bananas, turkey, or you can supplement with 5-HTP.

Recent studies show that chronic MDMA users often experience worn teeth, cracked tooth enamel, and jaw problems.

Gotta hate the jaw clenching!!! Hurts like a broken jaw.
The jaw clenching/teeth chrunching happens because of a lack of Magnesium. Magnesium relaxes the body muscles and is the antagonist of Calcium. You can stop jaw clenching thru Magnesium Supplements. The cramping happens because of dehydration...which can be countered by Vitamin C intake. Basically take a few magnesium and Vit C tablets before you take and after you take and this wont be a problem at all.


I got this info from the Bluelight FAQS.
You can check out the info for yourself at:
E-verything you never wanted to know
Negative Afteraffects of Ecstacy
Neurotoxic brain damage caused by MDMA?

 

[Bee]

Originally posted by mandy5


Oh for GODS SAKE!!!! Did you SEE the wink at the end of my comment? Or do you just see whatever you want to see that can enable you to get up on that soapbox you love to drag out?

Nah I saw it. Gee, sorry that meant you were joking did it?
I guess that makes it alright then

A bit like the old line "sorry I was pissed" or "sorry I was off my face on cocaine". They are usually pretty good excuses to drag out too.

 

[FIGJAM]

Originally posted by Bee
...or "sorry I was off my face on cocaine".

That's tantamount to saying, "Gee, sorry, I was off my face on Coffee". It doesn't make sense and is actually kinda funny!

Whilst I appreciate the good intentions forwarded by yourself and TT and agree with the dangers of all drugs, you must understand that first hand experience is significantly more factual than some governmental sposored research into "the negative affects of xxx". The research question they are given in the first place tells them where to direct their energies!

At the end of the day, for relaxation purposes, nothing beats a trip down to Seven Mile Beach in Tassie!

 

[Bee]

Fig, don't take it personally. How many times have you heard someone use those excuses? I am not just having a go at drug users, I'm referring to alcohol as well. "I'm sorry I was pissed". "I didn't mean it I was off my face". Old excuses that people drag out all the time to try and explain their behaviour.
I'll admit I am no angel when it comes to alcohol. I love to go out and party and drink, and I have had plenty of nights that are a blur, but I can honestly say I have never had to use that excuse to cover for bad behaviour. If I have done something to offend someone or hurt someone I apologise I don't need an excuse for it.

And Fig, I have never heard anyone say "I was off my face on coffee" You are being silly

I think you are missing my gripe though. I just don't see the funny side in telling a child to try cocaine to have a good time. Whether it was meant as a joke or not. I mean come on, if I am missing the joke, then tell me when to laugh.

Cheers, no offence intended Fig

 

[TigerTank]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper

I have taken it and will probably continue to do so if I feel like it. I have done some studies and I know the risk, but it's MY risk.

At the moment you do not have a legal 'right' to use ecstacy - but let's just say that situation were to change.

I believe there should never be a 'right' without a 'responsibility' that goes with it.

How's this for a trade off?

Right - illegal drugs are made legal (all of them) and that people have the legal right to use them as they see fit as an informed choice.

Responsibility- that those who use them fully accept the consequences of their informed choice: that is no government-funded health assistance for their drug use even for overdose. (inc. tobacco, alcohol if you like). If the person dies, so be it - it's their choice. If they want a medical safety net they should pay for some form of extra private (drug) health insurance.

Also, drug users must accept full responsibility for home invasion and other crimes to fund their drug use: that is, if they break into my home and I blow them away with a rifle defending my property and family, it is their responsibility.

Fair trade?

 

[The Starchild]

Don't know what relevence this will have in the context being argued, but here goes...

(Firstly, I've tried all these drugs except K.)

Personally, I don't mind anyone taking pills or getting all bonged up as long as they aren't affecting anyone else in a negative way in public. However, I've never ever liked the rave scene because it is one of the most full-of-sh#t pretentious settings that I've ever had anything to do with. Now that is a massive generalisation I know, and so it all comes back to my perspective on the issue being different to those people that are into it.

I look at people my age (31) still going to raves and they mostly have massive self-esteem problems and/or suffer from high levels of depression. I feel sorry for them, but then they start acting all airy-fairy when they get on the gear and suddenly they're snobby and pretentious and think they're god's gift, and I can't fit in or relate to them in any way anymore. What do you reckon they're feeling when these same people are coming down? I'll tell you, it's suicidal.

Now as a 'fairly' experienced (although not educated beyond yr12) person in life I reckon I can see the problem here. Don't have the solution, but I can see that the main problem is the entire mindset that would allow you to go and use these drugs in such a screwed up environment. Macca, you may be lucky, I too gave up smoking cold-turkey reletively easily and if you are doing exactly what you want to do in life, and suffer from no depression or anxiety as a result of your drug use, then you are lucky because from my experience in interacting with ravers, you are 1 in 100. The fact is mate, most hard-drugs users have personality disorders, whether they will admit it or not, but whether you choose to label that as a weakness is subject to your terminology.

I guess what I'm saying is that I really don't like the rave scene because I reckon it's fake. But then again I don't like many different nightclubs and pubs because I reckon they're fake, too. I don't mind anyone taking any drug they like, go for it do what you want....you only live once afterall, like Macca said....but the problems of depression and anxiety and panic attacks cannot be denied. I guess that would be my point out of this, to anyone looking to try drugs like ectascy, beware of the side affects, cause they are a bloody killer.

 

[Bee]

Originally posted by TigerTank


Also, drug users must accept full responsibility for home invasion and other crimes to fund their drug use: that is, if they break into my home and I blow them away with a rifle, it is their responsibility.

Fair trade?

I'll back you up on that one.
And I'll bring along my dads .300 Winchester magnum to help!

 

[TigerTank]

Bee,

Spoken like a true conservative. Welcome to the cause.

 

[glenferrie boy]

Originally posted by The Starchild

I look at people my age (31) still going to raves and they mostly have massive self-esteem problems and/or suffer from high levels of depression. I feel sorry for them, but then they start acting all airy-fairy when they get on the gear and suddenly they're snobby and pretentious and think they're god's gift, and I can't fit in or relate to them in any way anymore. What do you reckon they're feeling when these same people are coming down? I'll tell you, it's suicidal.

Starchild, you have to also understand that these people - who are 31 or abouts - have most likely been in the scene or taking drugs for a long time. What I mean is, most people don't start heavy drug use at old age, they usually start in their late teenage years. And I can admit that long term drug use/abuse does damage. But these people have probably been taking substances for 10 years or more.. of course it would do damage. Just like abusing alcohol / tobacco / marijuana for that long..

you may be lucky, I too gave up smoking cold-turkey reletively easily and if you are doing exactly what you want to do in life, and suffer from no depression or anxiety as a result of your drug use, then you are lucky because from my experience in interacting with ravers, you are 1 in 100. The fact is mate, most hard-drugs users have personality disorders, whether they will admit it or not, but whether you choose to label that as a weakness is subject to your terminology.

I beg to differ about the 1 in 100 fact.. You say that 1% of ravers you interact with have personality disorders. I beg you to come and interact with my friends and people met through going to parties. Only 1 person (from at least 50) i have ever experienced go through any personality change or disorder as you call it. Now on average that would make macca 98 in 100.

You can only go on what you have seen.. What I have seen is a great deal different to you.. You are making judgements and generalisation without really knowing whats going on. Fair enough you may know about the situation with 30 year olds, but 90% of ravers are 23 or younger.. If you want the proof.. come this saturday to a free breaks party and have a look for yourself.

I guess what I'm saying is that I really don't like the rave scene because I reckon it's fake. But then again I don't like many different nightclubs and pubs because I reckon they're fake, too. I don't mind anyone taking any drug they like, go for it do what you want....you only live once afterall, like Macca said....but the problems of depression and anxiety and panic attacks cannot be denied. I guess that would be my point out of this, to anyone looking to try drugs like ectascy, beware of the side affects, cause they are a bloody killer.

The rave scene (in Melbourne) has become "more fake" as you put it over the last few years. But it can still be bloody great to be a part of, maybe you need some new people to hang around with.. or maybe you have just grown out of it.. But don't blame the whole scene because you don't enjoy going anymore..
Try telling that to an 18 year old who has just gone to his first rave and had the time of his life.

 

[The Starchild]

Originally posted by glenferrie boy

Starchild, you have to also understand that these people - who are 31 or abouts - have most likely been in the scene or taking drugs for a long time.

The point I was making is that they have a personality disorder which is a sad thing. I don't judge them good or bad, my natural instinct is to help. How long they've been doing it is irrelevant to the point I was making, mate!

You can only go on what you have seen.. What I have seen is a great deal different to you.. You are making judgements and generalisation without really knowing whats going on.

I beg to differ, I'd suggest when you get to my age and have been through everything you will go through up until then, you might think exactly like me. Either that or you might be one of the unhappy people that I'm referring to.

...or maybe you have just grown out of it.. But don't blame the whole scene because you don't enjoy going anymore..
Try telling that to an 18 year old who has just gone to his first rave and had the time of his life.

Blame the whole scene for what? I'm confused now.

I admit I am over it, grown out of it. I believe I see it for exactly what it is now, and it's definitely not me. I've absolutely definitely moved on, but I think you dodged my point a bit...the side effects are terrible with these drugs and although I haven't quoted it, I'm not surprised you think you and most of your buddies are a-ok in your mental attitude and stability. As I said, most drug-takers deny it all anyway. You can only see that looking in from the outside after having been in though. Well, that's my thought's anyway.

Please remember I don't mind people doing these things ok dude?

 

[glenferrie boy]

Originally posted by The Starchild
The point I was making is that they have a personality disorder which is a sad thing. I don't judge them good or bad, my natural instinct is to help. How long they've been doing it is irrelevant to the point I was making, mate!

I don't think it is irrelevant. People who i associate with 18-24 y.o's have not been taking drugs for as long as people around your age. My point being.. the longer you take drugs the more likely to are to suffer the effects. I am not denying that this happens.. it happened to one of my best friends. I'm just saying that you are more likely be of that opinion because these friends of yours have been doing drugs longer.

I beg to differ, I'd suggest when you get to my age and have been through everything you will go through up until then, you might think exactly like me. Either that or you might be one of the unhappy people that I'm referring to.

My personal response is based on what i have seen and the people that i associate with. Of course it is going to be completely different to you, just like an 16-18 y.o's is going to be different from mine. You may have experienced more, but your experiences may have been completely different.. it doesn't mean i will start thinking like you.

Blame the whole scene for what? I'm confused now.

You are saying the whole scene is "fake" now.. Maybe that's because you are over it. You are pointing the blame in the wrong direction

I admit I am over it, grown out of it. I believe I see it for exactly what it is now, and it's definitely not me. I've absolutely definitely moved on, but I think you dodged my point a bit...the side effects are terrible with these drugs and although I haven't quoted it, I'm not surprised you think you and most of your buddies are a-ok in your mental attitude and stability. As I said, most drug-takers deny it all anyway. You can only see that looking in from the outside after having been in though. Well, that's my thought's anyway.

I never denied the side effects are terrible. But only for heavy or continuous use. I personally only take them every 4-6 weeks. I don't see this as a problem. I won't be doing this forever.. Perhaps not even another year.

And don't make a statement that i am denying what is really going on with me and my friends. How would you know? You think i wouldn't know if they were suffering from personality disorders? You said that you knew your friends were suffering. Why wouldn't I know?
I have been friends with these people before we even started popping.. so i would notice the change, and to be honest, in the whole time we have been partying.. my close friends have only changed for the better.

Please remember I don't mind people doing these things ok dude?

No probs.

 

[Macca19]

Originally posted by The Starchild
However, I've never ever liked the rave scene because it is one of the most full-of-sh#t pretentious settings that I've ever had anything to do with. Now that is a massive generalisation I know, and so it all comes back to my perspective on the issue being different to those people that are into it.

Well, i reckon its one of the friendliest atmospheres ive ever seen. People at a rave are three times more friendly than if you were to go to any old pub or club. This is of course my opinion.

I look at people my age (31) still going to raves and they mostly have massive self-esteem problems and/or suffer from high levels of depression.

Maybe they just like Hard House or Drum n Bass and go for the music. I know a few older people that go and they have no depression problems or anything.

Macca, you may be lucky, I too gave up smoking cold-turkey reletively easily and if you are doing exactly what you want to do in life, and suffer from no depression or anxiety as a result of your drug use, then you are lucky because from my experience in interacting with ravers, you are 1 in 100. The fact is mate, most hard-drugs users have personality disorders, whether they will admit it or not, but whether you choose to label that as a weakness is subject to your terminology.

Cant agree with that. Some of my friends have been doing this for years....friends ive known since I was 4-5 years old...and none of them have any personality disorders. Im sure if i started taking copius amounts of Coke, E, Meth, K and weed every weekend then id end up with some sort of disorder. Point is, i dont...Its usually only a once every 5-6 week thing. I am doing exactly what i want to do with my life...as for depression or anxiety....everyone has suffered a bit from depression. When i went thru depression it had nothing to do with my drug use as i hadnt tried E or Coke or Meth at that stage.

I guess that would be my point out of this, to anyone looking to try drugs like ectascy, beware of the side affects, cause they are a bloody killer.

If you try it once you are not going to suddenly become schizophrenic or suffer long bouts of depression. That doesnt happen off one pill. If you take 8 pills a weekend for 10 years, as well as plenty of other drugs you might become schizophrenic, but as ive said all along - if you dont abuse it, be careful, and know what your doing, then you wont get any permanent side effects.