List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[_RT_]

I think the best way to work out if we need a rebuild or refresh is to take a look at a potential round 1 2023 compared to our best 22 if everyone was fit this year

2021
B: Astbury Balta Grimes
HB: Baker Vlastuin Short
C: McIntosh Cotchin Pickett
HF: Bolton Edwards Castagna
F: Lynch Martin Riewoldt
R: Nankervis Prestia Lambert
INT: Houli Graham Broad Soldo
SUB: D.Rioli

2023
B: ??????? Balta ???????
HB: Baker Vlastuin Short
C: McIntosh Graham ???????
HF: Bolton ??????? Castagna
F: Martin Lynch D.Rioli
R: Nankervis ??????? ???????
INT: Soldo ??????? ??????? ???????
SUB: ???????

Out of the 2021 side are Astbury Grimes Cotchin Pickett Edwards Riewoldt Prestia Lambert Houli & Broad while Graham moves into the midfield and D.Rioli comes into the 22. The players that I've taken out of the side I've done so as they'll either retire or may not be walk up starts as they'll be over 30 and if we're to still be a contender we'd need to have kids stepping up and replacing those older guys.

So the question now becomes do we have the players on our list that can fill in the ????????.

If you look at the list of players currently on our list which ones are you confident of becoming best 22 players or still on the list heading into 2023.

That list is:
Caddy
Aarts
Chol
DES
Garthwaite
Naish
Colina
Coleman-Jones
Miller
RCD
Stack
Ross
Ryan
Cumberland
Martyn
Nyoun
Dow
Ralphsmith
Rioli Jr


For mine the ones I still see being on our list in 2023 are: Naish Colina Coleman-Jones RCD Stack Ross Ryan Cumberland Martyn Nyoun Dow Ralphsmith & Rioli Jr with those in bold being the ones I see filling some of the ??????? in the side above, that to me leaves a lot of hole to be filled which IMO suggests we need to utilise our draft position at the end of the year to find another half a dozen kids who can put themselves in the mix for the 22 from 2023 onwards.

 

[beema limapep]

Picks as at the completion of round 8:-

11,14, 26, 29, 43, 47.

 

[theyellowsash]

I think the best way to work out if we need a rebuild or refresh is to take a look at a potential round 1 2023 compared to our best 22 if everyone was fit this year

2021
B: Astbury Balta Grimes
HB: Baker Vlastuin Short
C: McIntosh Cotchin Pickett
HF: Bolton Edwards Castagna
F: Lynch Martin Riewoldt
R: Nankervis Prestia Lambert
INT: Houli Graham Broad Soldo
SUB: D.Rioli

2023
B: ??????? Balta ???????
HB: Baker Vlastuin Short
C: McIntosh Graham ???????
HF: Bolton ??????? Castagna
F: Martin Lynch D.Rioli
R: Nankervis ??????? ???????
INT: Soldo ??????? ??????? ???????
SUB: ???????

Out of the 2021 side are Astbury Grimes Cotchin Pickett Edwards Riewoldt Prestia Lambert Houli & Broad while Graham moves into the midfield and D.Rioli comes into the 22. The players that I've taken out of the side I've done so as they'll either retire or may not be walk up starts as they'll be over 30 and if we're to still be a contender we'd need to have kids stepping up and replacing those older guys.

So the question now becomes do we have the players on our list that can fill in the ????????.

If you look at the list of players currently on our list which ones are you confident of becoming best 22 players or still on the list heading into 2023.

That list is:
Caddy
Aarts
Chol
DES
Garthwaite
Naish
Colina
Coleman-Jones
Miller
RCD
Stack
Ross
Ryan
Cumberland
Martyn
Nyoun
Dow
Ralphsmith
Rioli Jr


For mine the ones I still see being on our list in 2023 are: Naish Colina Coleman-Jones RCD Stack Ross Ryan Cumberland Martyn Nyoun Dow Ralphsmith & Rioli Jr with those in bold being the ones I see filling some of the ??????? in the side above, that to me leaves a lot of hole to be filled which IMO suggests we need to utilise our draft position at the end of the year to find another half a dozen kids who can put themselves in the mix for the 22 from 2023 onwards.

So to avoid a rebuild we will rely on hitting 6 picks this year, who will all be best 22 and replacing players like Edward's cotchin reiwoldt and houli in just their second year...

Rebuild it is then

 

[tunksy]

26. Nank. Aarts.
25. Short. Soldo.
24. George. Chol. Rioli.
23. Baker. Graham. DES.
22. Garthwaite. Bolton. Naish.

Not all doom and gloom. Waiting for some to step up... Be nice when Bolton signs the thing.

Aarts is average
Soldo coming off an acl but was quality
Chol not in the contest enough
Des. Soft. Desisted again end of year
Garth. Delisted end of year
Naish. Not in the contest enough. Will leave.

Lucky we got a good draft hand really

 

[Bill Haverchuck]

So to avoid a rebuild we will rely on hitting 6 picks this year, who will all be best 22 and replacing players like Edward's cotchin reiwoldt and houli in just their second year...

Rebuild it is then

Correct , i admire peoples optimism but the system makes it extremely hard to stay at the top..
I personally think we will fall hard and fast over the next few years , thats not a bad thing necessarily as spending a few years down in the bottom 4-6 will give us access to that elite talent we need..
The worst thing would be to get stuck in that middle ladder mediocrity...

 

[Masotiger]

Out of the 2021 side are Astbury Grimes Cotchin Pickett Edwards Riewoldt Prestia Lambert Houli & Broad while Graham moves into the midfield and D.Rioli comes into the 22. The players that I've taken out of the side I've done so as they'll either retire or may not be walk up starts as they'll be over 30 and if we're to still be a contender we'd need to have kids stepping up and replacing those older guys.

Prestia would've only just turned 30, Lambert only just 31 and Broad would be 29. Reckon you're selling these blokes short. And it wouldn't surprise if Edwards is still good to go in 2023.

 

[Masotiger]

Correct , i admire peoples optimism but the system makes it extremely hard to stay at the top..
I personally think we will fall hard and fast over the next few years , thats not a bad thing necessarily as spending a few years down in the bottom 4-6 will give us access to that elite talent we need..
The worst thing would be to get stuck in that middle ladder mediocrity...

Not convinced you need to be bottom 4-6 to access the "elite" talent. Development plays a crucial role. Have a look at Carlton, countless high end picks but cannot develop in a s**t side. One third of our last 2 premiership teams have come off rookie lists.

Also the depth of each years particular draft is a factor. Trading picks and players is one option. As long as trading a quality player for an early pick does not upset the morale of the group. I can live with a few years toward the bottom if need be because the club is a professionally run entity these days and I have no doubt we'd bounce back very quickly, but I don't think we'll drop off to the extent you do.

 

[Marcel Proust]

29:. Dusty. Grimes. Lambert. Pickett.
28: Prestia. Lynch. Broad. Caddy.
27: macca. Vlastuin.

 

[Bill Haverchuck]

Not convinced you need to be bottom 4-6 to access the "elite" talent. Development plays a crucial role. Have a look at Carlton, countless high end picks but cannot develop in a sh*t side. One third of our last 2 premiership teams have come off rookie lists.

Also the depth of each years particular draft is a factor. Trading picks and players is one option. As long as trading a quality player for an early pick does not upset the morale of the group. I can live with a few years toward the bottom if need be because the club is a professionally run entity these days and I have no doubt we'd bounce back very quickly, but I don't think we'll drop off to the extent you do.

You could be right obviously nothings a certainty , i'm just happy that we have basically stuck to kids and haven't topped up...

 

[tora tora tora]

We need a replacement for Cotch. Another hard at it ball winning mid.

No kid we draft is going to be able to do this role in their first year, so we should be going hard after someone like Tom Green.

Anyone we delist has to be out of contact. I think houli is on one year contacts. Cotch and caddy are 2022. Astbury, JR, Edwards this year. If we bomb out early finals
Houli, caddy and Astbury this year. Miller and bigoa hopefully able to cover Dave.

 

[_RT_]

So to avoid a rebuild we will rely on hitting 6 picks this year, who will all be best 22 and replacing players like Edward's cotchin reiwoldt and houli in just their second year...

Rebuild it is then

What I'm talking about is replacing players who are outside our 22 at the moment with players who may be more likely to become best 22 players than those that have been here 4-5 years or more and haven't looked like becoming senior players. We have a golden draft hand this year and with our recruiting staff hitting more often than not in recent year at the draft lets take advantage of it and give ourselves the best chance possible to extend the era.

Prestia would've only just turned 30, Lambert only just 31 and Broad would be 29. Reckon you're selling these blokes short. And it wouldn't surprise if Edwards is still good to go in 2023.

Not selling anyone short as those blokes are still likely to be on the list, but if we're to have the sustained success that we all want, then some of those blokes who are turning 30 in a couple of years need to be having younger blokes starting to pass them in the pecking order or we risk heading down the path Hawthorn ended up down by holding on too long and not giving younger players the chances to develop when they should have.

 

[Masotiger]

You could be right obviously nothings a certainty , i'm just happy that we have basically stuck to kids and haven't topped up...

Few of the sins of the father are visited upon the son (loved the Killers version of this song prior to 2017 GF euphoria; alas, I digress).

I was around when the RFC tried topping up with overrated "big name" players in the past. John Pitura comes to mind. Not to mention the disaster post 1982. Even after our prelim appearance in 2001 we topped up and fell in a hole.

This club is a joy to support the manner in which it has moved into the professional era from the time the unsung hero Gary March became President. Lessons have been well and truly learnt from our past. I have full faith in people like Blair Hartley, Michael Clarke, Tim Livingstone, etc not to emulate the sins of their earlier predecessors.

 

[_RT_]

Correct , i admire peoples optimism but the system makes it extremely hard to stay at the top..
I personally think we will fall hard and fast over the next few years , thats not a bad thing necessarily as spending a few years down in the bottom 4-6 will give us access to that elite talent we need..
The worst thing would be to get stuck in that middle ladder mediocrity...

We don't have to fall hard and fast though.

I think we're in a great position to do a mini rebuild/refresh on the fly by using some of our depth, plus draft capital to target some under valued targets like we did when we landed Prestia Caddy & Nankervis back in 2016.

 

[Bojangles17]

Would trade Rioli for a first rounder real quick

And piss shai off, I don’t think so

 

[Masotiger]

Few of the sins of the father are visited upon the son (loved the Killers version of this song prior to 2017 GF euphoria; alas, I digress).

I was around when the RFC tried topping up with overrated "big name" players in the past. John Pitura comes to mind. Not to mention the disaster post 1982. Even after our prelim appearance in 2001 we topped up and fell in a hole.

This club is a joy to support the manner in which it has moved into the professional era from the time the unsung hero Gary March became President. Lessons have been well and truly learnt from our past. I have full faith in people like Blair Hartley, Michael Clarke, Tim Livingstone, etc not to emulate the sins of their earlier predecessors.

Apologies - Matthew Clarke

 

[JR82]

Doubt we'll fall like Hawthorn have, they always traded out of the Draft during thier time while we have always invested in it. this yrs hand is far too good an opportunity to pass up. Cats have traded well to stay up but thier cliff is coming fast when it arrives. Any players wanting out for game time trade for future picks to give us a couple of decent draft hauls, nailing those Drafts is what will define whether we fall off a cliff or stay in contention.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Found our replacement for Jack.
Former Richmond forward does it again
Cleve Hughes has now reached double figures twice in the opening six rounds of the Ovens and King Football League for Milawa.

After kicking 10 two weeks ago, Hughes went and bettered his tally on the weekend as Milawa recorded a monster 153-point win over Moyhu as the 34-year-old booted 14.

 

[evo]

Gotta love the Cleveland Steamer

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Gotta love the Cleveland Steamer

Like so many others.
What could have been.

 

[fargothegreat]

Leppa has provided a great insight into where he thinks we're at atm and why:

Crunch Time Full Show (08/05/2021)

Gerard Whateley, Sam Edmund, Daisy Pearce and Justin Leppitsch present Crunch Time

player.whooshkaa.com

(Link sends you to 36:03 where he talks about this)

He pretty much said that our depth is shot compared to past years because we've had to let players go for more opportunity and replaced them with kids. He thinks that our core have still got a couple of years left, but if they can't get on the park we will struggle unless we look to trade in more experienced bodies like Geelong have.

 

[Mr Magic]

Leppa has provided a great insight into where he thinks we're at atm and why:

Crunch Time Full Show (08/05/2021)

Gerard Whateley, Sam Edmund, Daisy Pearce and Justin Leppitsch present Crunch Time

player.whooshkaa.com

(Link sends you to 36:03 where he talks about this)

He pretty much said that our depth is shot compared to past years because we've had to let players go for more opportunity and replaced them with kids. He thinks that our core have still got a couple of years left, but if they can't get on the park we will struggle unless we look to trade in more experienced bodies like Geelong have.

I think some of our stakeholders with longer memories need to stand up and say we do not want another 1980's revisited, we have learn't from the past, we are going hard at the draft this year.

We can get other players going forward after a quick refresh. This is not impossible especially with guns like Bolton, Balta and co.

The time to give up draft picks for established players is not this year IMO, we are giving up to much of our future for that like we did in the 1980's to put a unnecessary security blanket on our present. Play the kids, let them grow and develop and become a rejuvenating force

 

[box070]

I think some of our stakeholders with longer memories need to stand up and say we do not want another 1980's revisited, we have learn't from the past, we are going hard at the draft this year.

We can get other players going forward after a quick refresh. This is not impossible especially with guns like Bolton, Balta and co.

The time to give up draft picks for established players is not this year IMO, we are giving up to much of our future for that like we did in the 1980's to put a unnecessary security blanket on our present. Play the kids, let them grow and develop and become a rejuvenating force

a quick refresh that would see the end of Cotchin Jack Astbury Houli? Can’t disagree with what you’ve said more. You need to balance the two. We can’t afford to wait 2-3 years. We need to go now with the eye on the now as well as the future. This year with our draft hand is the perfect time. Because we can actually have it both ways

 

[tora tora tora]

a quick refresh that would see the end of Cotchin Jack Astbury Houli? Can’t disagree with what you’ve said more. You need to balance the two. We can’t afford to wait 2-3 years. We need to go now with the eye on the now as well as the future. This year with our draft hand is the perfect time. Because we can actually have it both ways

Cotch is contracted so you don't free up his salary unless he retires. Caddy is the other player on a big wage not in the 22. Of those players Houli doesn't need a replacement. Miller might be able to cover Dave for a couple of years. Cotch is tricky. Marlion and Shai doing well. Ross and RCD are maybe replacement for Cotch. See how we look if we get some depth back. another mobile KPF. Watching a bit of replay of last week I did notice lack of speed of Lynch. And by comparison how mobile Jeremy Cameron is. I was thinking CJ would fill the spot but we aren't playing 2 rucks these days. Maybe we trade an excess ruck for a mobile KPF to replace jack

 

[theyellowsash]

I think some of our stakeholders with longer memories need to stand up and say we do not want another 1980's revisited, we have learn't from the past, we are going hard at the draft this year.

We can get other players going forward after a quick refresh. This is not impossible especially with guns like Bolton, Balta and co.

The time to give up draft picks for established players is not this year IMO, we are giving up to much of our future for that like we did in the 1980's to put a unnecessary security blanket on our present. Play the kids, let them grow and develop and become a rejuvenating force

As someone who wasnt alive to see 1980 but did see all the s**t that came after, no trading out the future for a quick fix again. I can take 5 years at the bottom, not the 25+ I saw

 

[tigs2010]

26. Nank. Aarts.
25. Short. Soldo.
24. George. Chol. Rioli.
23. Baker. Graham. DES.
22. Garthwaite. Bolton. Naish.

Not all doom and gloom. Waiting for some to step up... Be nice when Bolton signs the thing.

Can't believe Nank is only 26.