Redbacks 2011/2012

[Ill Chicken]

Still annoyed that Horlin-Smith chose footy.

He can still make it in cricket though if AFL doesn't work out for him. De-listed by the age of 20-21, couple of solid years in grade and he'd be playing 1st or 2nd XI state cricket by the time he is 23/24 given his previously credentials as a cricketer.

 

[Chris25]

I agree that Davey and Moffat could consider themselves unlucky, but I can't argue with the Head selection. It's been a long time since we've had an 18 year old batsman who looks good enough to play, and he has been in good form in both grade cricket and especially the National Championships.

 

[Ill Chicken]

I agree that Davey and Moffat could consider themselves unlucky, but I can't argue with the Head selection. It's been a long time since we've had an 18 year old batsman who looks good enough to play, and he has been in good form in both grade cricket and especially the National Championships.

It is still kids cricket. U19's is nowhere near the quality or mentality of Shield cricket while it probably close to Future League it still doesn't have the same intensity or all round experience of what Shield cricket is about.

Davey and Moffat on the other hand are coming from several seasons of solid first grade cricket. Both are 24 and have plenty to offer and chances to build a first class career.

The only thing they've done right about putting Head in, is that he is in the middle order. Ferguson or Klinger should really step up and play the openers role, so guys like Stray, Moffat, Brown and co don't get sold down the river.

 

[Daz]

He's struggling at the moment. Very loose outside off.

His dismissal in the first innings was soft. Went back to Holland and tried to flick it through mid-wicket/square leg. Really shouldn't have missed it.

 

[Daz]

And now he's gone. Pushed at a ball outside off.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Travis Head has had a pretty solid year in grade cricket as well though.

536 runs across all A Grade competitions at an average of 40. Made Aus U19s too I reckon.

Since we're bottom anyway he's exactly the sort of player who should be getting a taste of things.

 

[Chris25]

Now that Head is in the side, dropping him would be a mistake. Need to stick with him, as opposed to the classic SACA way of managing young players.

 

[Ill Chicken]

Travis Head has had a pretty solid year in grade cricket as well though.

536 runs across all A Grade competitions at an average of 40. Made Aus U19s too I reckon.

Since we're bottom anyway he's exactly the sort of player who should be getting a taste of things.

Hasn't made a ton in first grade. Doesn't deserve to be there on that alone. Ridiculous that you would promote him over blokes that deserve a shot.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

I know they probably aren't up for selection for your teams, but out of interest how are Theo Doropolous and Jake Fawcett going in your Grade comps over in SA?

Cheers guys.

 

[Ill Chicken]

Theo is doing average, Fawcett left Glenelg at the end of November and has since hit 3 tons for Wanneroo back in Perth First Grade.

 

[Chris25]

Speaking of Doropoulos, he has been retained in the 13 man squad for the Ryobi Cup match tomorrow. And he could well play too, considering Christian is away with the Australian team.

Dan Harris
Michael Klinger
Callum Ferguson
Tom Cooper
Cam Borgas
James Smith
Adam Crosthwaite
Theo Doropoulos
Aaron O'Brien
Chadd Sayers
Gary Putland
Joe Mennie
Jake Haberfield

My guess would be one of Borgas/Smith misses out, and one of Sayers/Mennie.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Hasn't made a ton in first grade. Doesn't deserve to be there on that alone. Ridiculous that you would promote him over blokes that deserve a shot.

The current Australian captain played for NSW without making a first grade ton.

 

[Ill Chicken]

The current Australian captain played for NSW without making a first grade ton.

And he didn't make a run for two seasons. What's your point?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Sorry, you're saying that someone who developed to the point that he became Australian captain isn't an example of the way to foster talent?

 

[Ill Chicken]

Sorry, you're saying that someone who developed to the point that he became Australian captain isn't an example of the way to foster talent?

That's correct. Gifting blokes selections on talent is a recipe for disaster, just look at South Australia.

 

[Bradesmaen]

That's correct. Gifting blokes selections on talent is a recipe for disaster, just look at South Australia.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

 

[Ill Chicken]

I couldn't be more wrong? South Australia is proof that gifting blokes selection based on talent is why they're up shit creek.

Clarke had it at least two current test players in his side when he debuted, Travis Head had none. Clarke was dropped next game because Mark Waugh was available. Are you using the same example of Cameron Williams as well? Is he the next Shane Warne. How bout Ferguson? If I recall correctly, he has only made one district ton and look he is a mid-range edge of the drop zone player.

If you've got the depth, yes you can give a young bloke a crack. If you don't, you have South Australia.

 

[Chris25]

I can understand where you're coming from. There are a few consistent performers in grade cricket, that have never been given a shot at the next level - meanwhile, we look interstate for these sorts of semi-experienced players to fill that gap.

But I don't know, I have no problem with Travis Head getting a game. He is young, homegrown, in decent form and has been exposed to underage Australian cricket. It's not often we have someone like that in SA, playing Shield cricket could fast track his development. And we are at the stage of the season where we can afford to give these types a chance.

Cam Williams is a bit of a different case. The other options have been tried (O'Brien, Bailey, Cullen) and he might just be the best of what is left of a bad crop.

 

[Bradesmaen]

I couldn't be more wrong? South Australia is proof that gifting blokes selection based on talent is why they're up shit creek.

Clarke had it at least two current test players in his side when he debuted, Travis Head had none. Clarke was dropped next game because Mark Waugh was available. Are you using the same example of Cameron Williams as well? Is he the next Shane Warne. How bout Ferguson? If I recall correctly, he has only made one district ton and look he is a mid-range edge of the drop zone player.

If you've got the depth, yes you can give a young bloke a crack. If you don't, you have South Australia.

They aren't gifting them spots based on talent. The problem is with the Grade cricket itself, not the SACA selectors. For instance, Cullen Bailey has made centuries at grade level.. that shows you the quality of player in it.

 

[Ill Chicken]

They aren't gifting them spots based on talent. The problem is with the Grade cricket itself, not the SACA selectors. For instance, Cullen Bailey has made centuries at grade level.. that shows you the quality of player in it.

Has Cullen Bailey ever played as batsman? No. What is Cullen Bailey highest first class score? 91. Sorry I didn't realise that these all rounders were pushing the good batsmen out of the game.

But besides that, if you really think SACA selectors are doing a good job then there is no point in discussion. When you're consistently debuting young batsmen at the top of the order, while imports continually sit pretty in the middle, you've got a massive problem. You've got a massive problem when there are guys making runs season after season getting pushed backed in the queue for guys who have gone not from one state to another but from two states.

Yeah the selectors are getting it right, it's grade cricket that has the problem.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Has Cullen Bailey ever played as batsman? No. What is Cullen Bailey highest first class score? 91. Sorry I didn't realise that these all rounders were pushing the good batsmen out of the game.

But besides that, if you really think SACA selectors are doing a good job then there is no point in discussion. When you're consistently debuting young batsmen at the top of the order, while imports continually sit pretty in the middle, you've got a massive problem. You've got a massive problem when there are guys making runs season after season getting pushed backed in the queue for guys who have gone not from one state to another but from two states.

Yeah the selectors are getting it right, it's grade cricket that has the problem.

That was totally not the point I was making. I was pointing out that if Cullen Bailey makes centuries against the top bowlers in the State that don't play for the Redbacks.. then really how good are the batsmen coming through the system? For instance, the leading wicket taker in Grad Cricket this year is Trent Kelly. A former WA and SA Shield Cricketer who has taken just 14 wickets in 8 games of First Class cricket at an average of 56.

South Australian Grade Cricket has been a problem for the last 15 years. There are too many teams and therefore the talent is diluted too far, allowing crap batsmen and bowlers to look better than they are. There are 13 clubs in Adelaide for a population of 1 million, where as Melbourne has 18 for a population of 4.

Sure the SACA Selectors don't exactly make the greatest decisions all the time, but at times they have to take a punt on someone who looks to have talent because the stats are incredibly misleading.

 

[Ill Chicken]

That was totally not the point I was making. I was pointing out that if Cullen Bailey makes centuries against the top bowlers in the State that don't play for the Redbacks.. then really how good are the batsmen coming through the system? For instance, the leading wicket taker in Grad Cricket this year is Trent Kelly. A former WA and SA Shield Cricketer who has taken just 14 wickets in 8 games of First Class cricket at an average of 56.

South Australian Grade Cricket has been a problem for the last 15 years. There are too many teams and therefore the talent is diluted too far, allowing crap batsmen and bowlers to look better than they are. There are 13 clubs in Adelaide for a population of 1 million, where as Melbourne has 18 for a population of 4.

Sure the SACA Selectors don't exactly make the greatest decisions all the time, but at times they have to take a punt on someone who looks to have talent because the stats are incredibly misleading.

As much as I don't rate Trent Kelly at first class level, those matches are spread out over quite a few seasons. It's not like he had four games in a row. This is exactly the same with Sayers who has had two first class games virtually a year apart besides not taking wickets didn't go for any runs. So how are these guys meant to get experience or translate such experience into their next match if they're not actually given a shot? Kelly walks into any A grade team in Australia.

But how does Cullen Bailey almost making a century in first class not reflect poorly on first class cricket then? Alex Tudor made 99 for England, Anil Kumble, Singh have made hundreds. Bailey isn't a mug with the bat at grade level and the fact is, when did he make that ton, it was like five years ago.

Hobart has a population of 220k, the state has a population of 500k and their grade cricket has 8 teams and they've won two flags in the last six years. So saying that Adelaide's population can't handle it is a myth.

 

[Bradesmaen]

As much as I don't rate Trent Kelly at first class level, those matches are spread out over quite a few seasons. It's not like he had four games in a row. This is exactly the same with Sayers who has had two first class games virtually a year apart besides not taking wickets didn't go for any runs. So how are these guys meant to get experience or translate such experience into their next match if they're not actually given a shot? Kelly walks into any A grade team in Australia.

They are given a shot and they do not do anything with it. Kelly has been given chances to play more than 1 game in a stretch and when he does, he doesn't take any wickets. What use is a bowler who takes 0 wickets? I don't buy into this myth that they need experience to perform. Plenty of NSW/Victorian youngsters come in and star right away, even some of the older recruits do like Herrick.

But how does Cullen Bailey almost making a century in first class not reflect poorly on first class cricket then? Alex Tudor made 99 for England, Anil Kumble, Singh have made hundreds. Bailey isn't a mug with the bat at grade level and the fact is, when did he make that ton, it was like five years ago.

I know he isn't a mug with the bat, I've seen him play for the last 12 years. But it does reflect badly and that was part of the questions about how some of these top state batsmen make centuries but when they play for Aus, they do crap like Hughes.

Hobart has a population of 220k, the state has a population of 500k and their grade cricket has 8 teams and they've won two flags in the last six years. So saying that Adelaide's population can't handle it is a myth.

It isn't a myth, it's truth. Both Tasmania and Adelaide rely a fair bit on imports to keep a competitive state team. Tasmania recently has gone through a good run with young players coming up and good coaching. But their leading run scorers this and last year are both imports. Their leading wicket taker this year is also an import.

 

[Ill Chicken]

They are given a shot and they do not do anything with it. Kelly has been given chances to play more than 1 game in a stretch and when he does, he doesn't take any wickets. What use is a bowler who takes 0 wickets? I don't buy into this myth that they need experience to perform. Plenty of NSW/Victorian youngsters come in and star right away, even some of the older recruits do like Herrick.

Game 1: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/141690.html - Nov 04/05 - SA

Game 2: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/229280.html - Dec 05/06 - SA

Game 3: http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/engine/match/298319.html - Oct 07/08 - WA

Game 4: http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/engine/match/298323.html - Nove 07/08 - WA

Game 5: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ausdomestic/engine/match/361250.html - Oct 08/09 - WA

Game 6: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/361272.html - Nov 08/09 - WA

Game 7: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/361272.html - Nov 08/09 - WA

Game 8: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/527832.html - Nov 11/12 - SA

What a massive chance he got, I'm sure he is thankful of SA giving him those massive runs of one game a year but nothing when he is absolutely on fire with the ball in first grade or even after taking 12 for in an U23's match. No point playing him then.

I know he isn't a mug with the bat, I've seen him play for the last 12 years. But it does reflect badly and that was part of the questions about how some of these top state batsmen make centuries but when they play for Aus, they do crap like Hughes.

How does it reflect badly that you've got a grafter that makes runs? It doesn't, Cullen Bailey is not an example and has no relevancy. Him making runs as a middle order bat for his club, which one should expect from a guy that has made runs at first class level.

It isn't a myth, it's truth. Both Tasmania and Adelaide rely a fair bit on imports to keep a competitive state team. Tasmania recently has gone through a good run with young players coming up and good coaching. But their leading run scorers this and last year are both imports. Their leading wicket taker this year is also an import.

It is a myth because South Australia won flags previously. Tasmania won their first Shield with 7 out of 11 players being from TAS while the NSW side had 8 out of 11 being NSWelshmen. While in last year's title they were both 7/11.

If it were true, NSW and Victoria should dominate regardless because they've got the depth and strenght to replace these players who aren't good enough to play for their state and have left.

 

[Cap]

I guess looking at how many teams in the comp is purely a symptom of being crap

afterall, you need to blame something.....

It would be interesting to see the SA u'19s v Tas u'19s record over the last 20 years - developing the talented players in SA to become good shield cricketers appears to be the biggest issue we have

Just think, Cosgrove and Ferguson were the next big thing in SA, one moved to tasmania and remained mediocre and other remains in SA and is mediocre - is it because in the early years SA didn't develop them properly or is the player just not being good enough?

How much influence has SA had on Dan Chrisitan and Nathan Lyon? from the outside looking in - very little.

being this poor for this long indicates something is wrong, pinpointing what that it because the real issue (for me, how many coaches and players must we go through before we look at what has remained the same...)