List Mgmt. Rookie List Mistake

[cynical]

I agree the future will be rookie listing ruckman as its much less risk. Mumford, orren, majak daw have all come through that way. Then you have expensive ruck failures in the draft like Cameron Wood and Dawson Simpson. Also Hmac, Max Bailey, Fred Witt and Brodie Grundy have been pleagued with injuries too. I've said it before somewhere, but getting ruckman in the draft is not as popular these days. Too risky and expensive. It's why Brodie Grundy fell to 18 in the draft dispite bieng in the top couple of prospects at U18 level.

I think unless a guy has the ability to play no1 ruck and be dangerous forward they probably wont be drafted until late in the second round.

Maybe clubs will develop more rucks from the rookie list and only have ready made rucks on the list. 3 senior list rucks and 2 rookies?

Western Bulldogs picked up Tom Campbell as a rookie in 2011 and now is on the senior list.

Dawson was drafted at the end of 2007 and we still don't know if he will make it, seems like a long time to just be sitting on a senior list.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Sheringham is a dime a dozen mid 20's midfielder, who we might have needed last year but certainly not this year.

Certainly not this year? How on earth can you possibly say this, when the whole premise of this thread is that we needed to keep Stephenson as a rookie, in case every designated ruckman on our list was wiped out? What if the same thing happened to every senior midfielder on our list? Or every key defender? Gotta have those contingencies for any fluke occurance that may beset us.

Even if we still had Stephenson on the list, he still would not have been guaranteed to play Round 1 (or any games this year, for that matter).

 

[SleazySimon]

But then what happens when all 4 are back up & running?
All of a sudden we have 4 quality rucks that would start in almost any other team vying for 2 positions.

Then we will be seeing threads about having too many rucks.

As has been mentioned before, it's an extraordinary position having all 4 down at once - it'll improve!

its better than having no rucks at all.

None of it is hindsight like some posters here re-writing are saying, the club knew what they were getting themselves into by getting rid of Stephenson as our only non injury prone, no 1 ruck. It's not a surprise to see all rucks injured right now considering their histories (bar West). Chris scott admitted this at the time so its not up for argument.

If we had to have 5 ruckman on our list then so what? Thats the cost of keeping two developing, injury prone ruckman you arnt sure about (simpson and vardy) on the list. It would only be for one year. Nothing wrong with backup.

 

[Perthmadcatter]

And what if the 5th ruckman was injured? Would we then be saying that we need 6 ruckmen on our list? No, 4 is plenty, unfortunately they are injured, fingers crossed West comes up for round 1, he and Walker to carry the ruck until round 3 when hopefully HMac and Vardy are good to go, all of a sudden we have 3 very serviceable ruckmen.

Lets face it, worst case scenario right now we don't have a specialist ruckman for 1 or 2 games, I'm sure Wells isn't going to lose any sleep over the decisions he made in regards to list management.

 

[cynical]

Certainly not this year? How on earth can you possibly say this, when the whole premise of this thread is that we needed to keep Stephenson as a rookie, in case every designated ruckman on our list was wiped out? What if the same thing happened to every senior midfielder on our list? Or every key defender? Gotta have those contingencies for any fluke occurance that may beset us.

Even if we still had Stephenson on the list, he still would not have been guaranteed to play Round 1 (or any games this year, for that matter).

I already said why in my original post. If we get a lot of injuries to midfielders we will not be in a position to win the flag. Having 5 or 6 midfielders go down by the time we get to Sheringham means our team is gone, no point having a midfield contingency plan when half your list can play midfield.

I also mentioned the rookie list should have a KPP because there are fewer of them also available on our list, Walker fills that spot.

Most teams play 2 rucks and unless you have a beast like Sandilands you will play 2 so only having 4 people to take up 2 spots is risky, even more risky when you have 3 guys coming off longterm injuries.

 

[Scottland2007]

What can you do? When we start constructing lists based on 'if' then we are in trouble.

Stephenson probably figured he CAN make it at senior level. Richmond came knocking.

That probably was his only way onto another list, I think he knew that.

Can't believe Richmond took our ruckman! I mean they took our leading goal kicker from 2003 - 2005 in Kent in 2006. I mean just leave the cats list alone. We have never taken a player off them..........

 

[cats_09]

I already said why in my original post. If we get a lot of injuries to midfielders we will not be in a position to win the flag. Having 5 or 6 midfielders go down by the time we get to Sheringham means our team is gone, no point having a midfield contingency plan when half your list can play midfield.

I also mentioned the rookie list should have a KPP because there are fewer of them also available on our list, Walker fills that spot.

Most teams play 2 rucks and unless you have a beast like Sandilands you will play 2 so only having 4 people to take up 2 spots is risky, even more risky when you have 3 guys coming off longterm injuries.

Don't remember too many times last year where North, Richmond, Adelaide, Fremantle, St Kilda, Geelong, Hawthorn, Pies would play 2 ruckman; With the new substitute rule (and probably more so next year with the interchange cap), a lot more teams went down the path of 1 genuine ruckman, and a back-up/pinch hitting ruck who could play other roles and be selected in the team for the other roles they play, not just as the #2 ruck.
Teams don't want 2 players in the side where their best position is the ruck and they don't offer much else around the ground. Now days, if the only position for the ruckman when not playing in the ruck is on the bench because they offer nothing around the ground, it makes it hard to pick more than 1 of them in the team.
Cox & Naitanui are one of the rare combinations where they both dangerous in the ruck & up forward (or anywhere on the ground really), but most teams don't have the luxury of a 2 pronged ruck attack like that.
If Stephenson showed some more around the ground last year and versatility at senior level then we may have kept him on the senior list or tried to rookie list him, but he only kicked 1 goal & 1 behind in his 8 games last year which meant it was going to be hard to leave him in the forward line when he wasn't rucking, so the only other spot is the bench and with only 3 on the bench that could be seen as valuable time & bench space if he needs to rest for 5 or 6 minutes while West/H. Mac/Vardy/Simpson or whoever is in the ruck.

 

[cats_09]

Can't believe Richmond took our ruckman! I mean they took our leading goal kicker from 2003 - 2005 in Kent in 2006. I mean just leave the cats list alone. We have never taken a player off them..........

They also chased Blake after 2007 and offered him a contract - unfortunately for us we know how that one turned out

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I already said why in my original post. If we get a lot of injuries to midfielders we will not be in a position to win the flag. Having 5 or 6 midfielders go down by the time we get to Sheringham means our team is gone, no point having a midfield contingency plan when half your list can play midfield.

If we went into every game this season with Stephenson in the ruck and West, McIntosh, Vardy and Simpson all injured, we wouldn't win the flag either. He's not one of the top 30 ruckmen in the league. The classic example was the Hawthorn game last year (coincidentally, since it's again a game against Hawthorn that we're talking about). A gutsy performance by Orren; no doubt he did a good job. But he was soundly beaten for the game. He paired with Walker, who is far, far better now as a ruckman than he was back then, along with Blicavs. Considering how Hale got on top as Stephenson fatigued, there's reason for optimism with Blicavs in his place. And Walkavs will be much more dangerous around the ground, when we've got the ball and (especially) when they've got it, because they're on a completely different level to Stephenson, with regards to mobility.

I also mentioned the rookie list should have a KPP because there are fewer of them also available on our list, Walker fills that spot.

It's nice to have someone who can do both. You can use the rookie list for depth in case of LTIs, or for developing players who may become regulars some day. Our rookie list provides (young) coverage for a tall defender (Bathie), tall forward (Walker), ruckman (Blicavs/Walker), midfielder (Sheringham), small defender (Eardley) and small forward (Burbury). And all have played AFL, or have shown enough that they will be options in the future. I wouldn't trade any of them for Stephenson. Not one.

Most teams play 2 rucks and unless you have a beast like Sandilands you will play 2 so only having 4 people to take up 2 spots is risky, even more risky when you have 3 guys coming off longterm injuries.

More often than not last year, Stephenson was available and the Cats chose instead to go either with West on his own, or West and Walker. As far as I know, Simpson is our only ruckman who has been ruled out and if one of the other three is right in two and a half weeks, Stephenson wouldn't have played anyway.

 

[you pick one]

They also chased Blake after 2007 and offered him a contract - unfortunately for us we know how that one turned out

I'd go back and have a look at the last quarter of the 2009 grand final,I'm not sorry he stayed around.

 

[winty]

A lot of people just dont get what I'm saying.

The rookie list is full of spuds who are a 90% chance of not making it. They are your picks 100+

Try telling that to the likes of Ben Rutten, Sam Jacobs, Andrew Carazzo, Jeff Garlett, Michael Jamison, Darren Jolly, Aaron Sandilands, Michael Barlow, Max Rooke, James Podsiadly, Nathan Bock, Josh Gibson, Matt Suckling, Michael Osborne, Mark Jamar, Aaron Davey, Nathan Foley, Stephen Milne, Clint Jones, Kieran Jack, Shane Mumford, Dean Cox, Matt Priddis, Matthew Boyd, Luke Dahlhaus and Dale Morris.

 

[you pick one]

Try telling that to the likes of Ben Rutten, Sam Jacobs, Andrew Carazzo, Jeff Garlett, Michael Jamison, Darren Jolly, Aaron Sandilands, Michael Barlow, Max Rooke, James Podsiadly, Nathan Bock, Josh Gibson, Matt Suckling, Michael Osborne, Mark Jamar, Aaron Davey, Nathan Foley, Stephen Milne, Clint Jones, Kieran Jack, Shane Mumford, Dean Cox, Matt Priddis, Matthew Boyd, Luke Dahlhaus and Dale Morris.

Boy a whole sack of spuds

 

[cynical]

Try telling that to the likes of Ben Rutten, Sam Jacobs, Andrew Carazzo, Jeff Garlett, Michael Jamison, Darren Jolly, Aaron Sandilands, Michael Barlow, Max Rooke, James Podsiadly, Nathan Bock, Josh Gibson, Matt Suckling, Michael Osborne, Mark Jamar, Aaron Davey, Nathan Foley, Stephen Milne, Clint Jones, Kieran Jack, Shane Mumford, Dean Cox, Matt Priddis, Matthew Boyd, Luke Dahlhaus and Dale Morris.

out of how many rookie listed players? 300? pretty good % of ruckmen

and how many of those guys were on the rookie list for more than 1 year?

 

[you pick one]

Boy a whole sack of spudscalling Scratcher Neil

 

[Pivo]

I already said why in my original post. If we get a lot of injuries to midfielders we will not be in a position to win the flag. Having 5 or 6 midfielders go down by the time we get to Sheringham means our team is gone, no point having a midfield contingency plan when half your list can play midfield.

If any team gets a lot of injuries they won't win the flag, that is a given but clubs don't like wheeling out the excuse.

Most fans understand that a number of injuries (especially to key personnel) can cruel a club.

For all intents and purposes, I actually see some merit in some of the things you have said.

My issue, however, is the opportunistic nature of your OP.

If we had even 2 fit ruckmen available you'd probably not create a thread like this. As I originally mentioned, it is easy to create in light of the current circumstances.

Just as it is easy for some to suggest "West is injury-prone" because he happens to have gone down at the most inopportune time. West ISN'T injury-prone, how many games has he missed since becoming a regular first 22'er??

I can't recall many.

And he has managed to be that way despite carrying a pretty heavy workload.

This actually reminded me of something I read around here last year when Adelaide got off to a flyer and we were labouring.

Some people proposed that we made the wrong call in hiring Chris Scott over Brenton Sanderson. This despite the fact we were the reigning premiers.

There is a thing called specious reasoning and this thread is somewhat prone to it.

For those Simpsons fans out there - I have a tiger rock at home, do you want to buy it? As you can see, it keeps tigers away.

 

[SleazySimon]

Try telling that to the likes of Ben Rutten, Sam Jacobs, Andrew Carazzo, Jeff Garlett, Michael Jamison, Darren Jolly, Aaron Sandilands, Michael Barlow, Max Rooke, James Podsiadly, Nathan Bock, Josh Gibson, Matt Suckling, Michael Osborne, Mark Jamar, Aaron Davey, Nathan Foley, Stephen Milne, Clint Jones, Kieran Jack, Shane Mumford, Dean Cox, Matt Priddis, Matthew Boyd, Luke Dahlhaus and Dale Morris.

fair to say we should be putting more ruckman on the rookie list then.

 

[cynical]

If any team gets a lot of injuries they won't win the flag, that is a given but clubs don't like wheeling out the excuse.

Most fans understand that a number of injuries (especially to key personnel) can cruel a club.

For all intents and purposes, I actually see some merit in some of the things you have said.

My issue, however, is the opportunistic nature of your OP.

If we had even 2 fit ruckmen available you'd probably not create a thread like this. As I originally mentioned, it is easy to create in light of the current circumstances.

Just as it is easy for some to suggest "West is injury-prone" because he happens to have gone down at the most inopportune time. West ISN'T injury-prone, how many games has he missed since becoming a regular first 22'er??

I can't recall many.

And he has managed to be that way despite carrying a pretty heavy workload.

This actually reminded me of something I read around here last year when Adelaide got off to a flyer and we were labouring.

Some people proposed that we made the wrong call in hiring Chris Scott over Brenton Sanderson. This despite the fact we were the reigning premiers.

There is a thing called specious reasoning and this thread is somewhat prone to it.

For those Simpsons fans out there - I have a tiger rock at home, do you want to buy it? As you can see, it keeps tigers away.

If we didn't have injuries to rucks I probably would not have analysed the ruck situation, most times it takes a bad situation to happen for discussion and analysis to take place.

No one has said West is injury prone, the other 3 guys are. West might be durable but I don't rate him as a guy who should be rucking on his own. Just because he is durable doesn't mean he wont get injured.

Some people thought we should have dumped Hawkins a few years ago. It's an AFL forum it's not likely to have a high degree of analytical thinking or rational thought.

 

[AM]

The AFL take on our Rookie List options.

GEELONG
Players: Ryan Bathie, Mark Blicavs, George Burbury, Cameron Eardley, Jackson Sheringham, Josh Walker
Status: The Cats have three places vacant on their senior list after recently transferring Dawson Simpson (back), Lincoln McCarthy (foot) and Josh Cowan (Achilles) to their rookie list. The situation has added some intensity to Geelong's NAB Cup campaign, as all the club's rookies except Burbury, who has a foot injury, are in the running to gain promotion.

Clubhouse leader: With the club's ruck stocks severely depleted by injuries to Trent West (knee), Hamish McIntosh (knee) and Simpson, both Blicavs and Walker are all but assured of being promoted into the lead-up to Geelong's round one blockbuster against Hawthorn. And either Blicavs or Walker will play against the Hawks. Speedy midfielder Jackson Sheringham is also expected to gain promotion to the senior list prior to round one. Sheringham has been one the Cats' standout performers on the track during the pre-season.

 

[supahoops]

Not buying into this one, but as an aside Banjanin went ok up against Hudson on the weekend, might be a sneaky chance to be rookied come the end of the year, particularly if Simpson and HMac struggle to get on the park.

 

[Cat Addict]

Orren was NOT ON THE ROOKIE LIST, he was replaced by McIntosh which most would agree was an upgrade!

I agree with Sarah on this one. We have same amount of ruck man on our list, as we did last year. And you would say they have improved it. Every team in the Afl could take a injured HMac over Orren.

So if this was a mistake then it was made last year also.

 

[Vdubs]

Certainly not this year? How on earth can you possibly say this, when the whole premise of this thread is that we needed to keep Stephenson as a rookie, in case every designated ruckman on our list was wiped out? What if the same thing happened to every senior midfielder on our list? Or every key defender? Gotta have those contingencies for any fluke occurance that may beset us.

Even if we still had Stephenson on the list, he still would not have been guaranteed to play Round 1 (or any games this year, for that matter).

But would Blicavs have been given so much play time if we had Orren? He was the standout big man in the VFL GF, with assistance from DS.

 

[AM]

Not buying into this one, but as an aside Banjanin went ok up against Hudson on the weekend, might be a sneaky chance to be rookied come the end of the year, particularly if Simpson and HMac struggle to get on the park.

Would his age be a barrier?

 

[supahoops]

Would his age be a barrier?

Not sure of his age, they're all starting to look young to me these days..

 

[meto]

Seems like the only ruck we have is Blicavs, the rest are riddled with injuries, if the situation doesn't improve through the year we'd better have a cleanout and get a fresh start.