List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[Wally Walpamur]

Does it matter if we are in year 2, 3 or 4 of the rebuild? The facts are we've turned over half of our list in two trade and draft periods adding young talent to develop a squad capable of competing for a premiership. We will support the club whether we get flogged by 100 points and kick the winning goal after the siren.

 

[dominguez]

During the seasoning opening meeting presentation thing. Ross implied that we may be in for a long haul. We arent going to bounce back up the ladder to much this year, 10 wins will be fine.

That's what you say in every job though isn't it, under sell and over deliver. But team selection doesn't fit that narrative. When you select Sutcliffe, D Pearce ad Johnson over Hughes, Hamling, Logue and Cerra you're aiming for finals and not rebuilding.

 

[dominguez]

Has slowly but surely shifted the goal posts.

April 2016 was "rewire, restump, replumb"
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-04-29/lyons-says-dockers-are-not-going-to-rebuild

August 2016 was "4 year rebuild"
http://www.watoday.com.au/afl/frema...ld-could-take-four-years-20160826-gr28ey.html

Now 2 seasons on, heading into the third year of the restump-rewire-replumb, we are apparently only heading into the "2nd year" of the rebuild...
https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/f...s-high-ahead-of-2018-afl-season-ng-b88773549z


Then "Only a year and a half in"
http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/video/2018-03-13/freos-rejuvenation

Joy?



Now Pearce and MJ get picked for Round 1? Are we still in the joyous "years of toil" or rebuilding?

I love RTB, but the change in attitude is disappointing. We used to be an anywhere, any time, no excuse football club. Now we're 2 years into a 4 year rebuild and playing Sutcliffe, Johnson and Danyle Pearce.

 

[Steinfreo]

That's what you say in every job though isn't it, under sell and over deliver. But team selection doesn't fit that narrative. When you select Sutcliffe, D Pearce ad Johnson over Hughes, Hamling, Logue and Cerra you're aiming for finals and not rebuilding.

Sutcliffe DP and Johnson were all fine in the preseason games. Logue had all last year to really prove himself and he was seriously meh, I think theres something we dont know going on with Hamling, Cerra will be in when he backs up after an awesome wafl debut.

 

[dominguez]

Sutcliffe DP and Johnson were all fine in the preseason games. Logue had all last year to really prove himself and he was seriously meh, I think theres something we dont know going on with Hamling, Cerra will be in when he backs up after an awesome wafl debut.

"Fine" shouldn't be good enough when you're 30+ at a rebuilding footy club though. Ross used to say that we're a no excuse football club. Now we're in a rebuild and need to be patient but our round 1 side includes a 30 something key defender past his best and a 30+ utility who was never all that good.

It's mixed messsages, it's like your Mrs standing at the mirror modelling her sexy new lingerie while telling you she has a headache.

 

[_007_]

But are any of those quotes are any more definitive? In August 2016 clearly Freo knew they were starting a rebuild and approximating 4 years. Either way isn't right now the 2nd full season since then? And Ross is being judged already anyway - by the supporter base and the media. I've been happy with what I've seen in pre-season, so now want to see a few games (not just rd 1) in the regular season. I'm don't think we need to burn everything down just because Danyle is playing. The positives far outweigh the negatives don't they?

"We understand that we are rebuilding, it is on the agenda" Lyon, August of 2016.

That says to me that they knew they were in for a full rebuild at some point in time before August. Doesn't really matter exactly when and I agree he is free to massage the message as he sees fit to appease a potentially impatient supporter base. Please just acknowledge we are being fed crap when in March 2018 he is quoted as saying “If you look historically, we’re really going into our second year (of the rebuild) off our second draft.”

Yes, second draft. No, third year of rebuild by your own words and that is ok. Rebuilding is not just drafting it is who you play, how you play etc.

In 2016 we had 3 debuts: Tucker, Collins and Yarran. Blakely, Langdon, Grey and Hughes played their real debuts (not round 22 or 23 2015) in 2016 too. It was unquestionably the first year of our rebuild although I do see what he's getting at with the draft comment. All I ask is that he owns it, he has up to 2020 and let's be real, we are all too familiar with pain to care THAT much.

Whoops forgot to quote you.

 

[Quazar]

You referenced a Brendan Forster article. Yuck... just yuck.

I'll bite. Not because I care too much about it but because your argument is misleading.

The bit you quoted (4 year rebuild) wasn't from Ross. It was from Brendan's (yuck) headline. Ross actually said: "We don't know exactly where we are at, it's a moving feast," and "We understand we are rebuilding, it's on the agenda. We certainly have a timeframe and all the studies have been done on how long it takes."

The bit that is more relevant from Brendan's words in the first paragraph of the article: "take up to four years to get the Dockers back into finals contention" - 'finals contention' is not the same as the 'rebuild' that this homeless 'journalist' wants us to believe.

I'm not going to claim Ross doesn't shift the goal posts. He's responsible for a large number of people and a large budget. Like all people who do that, they will adjust things over time. And they should do that if it makes them and what they are responsible for more effective.

In this case though I don't think he has. We've had two drafts since late 2016 and only one full season so far (2017). We are heading into the second full season (2018). Some are predicting we are a chance to make finals (ie finals contention) this year and if not, most people following closely are thinking next year (2019). That still keeps us well within the original timeline.

I get people are confused because they count 2016 as the first year of the rebuild but the comments weren't made at the start of that season, they were made towards the end (as per the snippets you quoted). In pre-season 2016 they thought they could bounce back from having some key injuries and finishing minor premiers in 2015 (they clearly got that very wrong) - the 2015 draft wasn't a rebuilding draft for us.

I'm interpreting it all as: we've had two drafts as part of this rebuild so far and we have two more to go - which if you look at our current list seems bang on. I'm expecting us to be in finals contention next year (ie in the 3rd season) and pushing for a premiership the year following (the 4th season) and the next few seasons after that. I've never been more excited about the state of our list than I am at the moment. I think our trading and drafting has been excellent since we started this rebuild and that's really the key indicator of how the rebuild is going isn't it? Lloyd deserves a lot of credit imo.

I can't believe we haven't even played a game yet this season and this has already become a major focus because two players are playing that most didn't want to.

The selections aren't ideal but if Stephen Hill was fit and Spurr hadn't gotten injured we'd probably only be complaining about one player in our B22. We always knew the B22 would come from the JLT2 squad plus the Hills at best. Hamling omitted is surprising but I'd be a hypocrite if I made too much of a song and dance about it because I've been calling for more run in the backline for years (instead of lots of negating defenders). I'd preferred alternative options (to DP/Sutty) as well but I don't think it will have a huge bearing on the outcome of the game, and therefore not going to lose my **** about it. We have two debutants in round 1 - I'm just focusing on that positive.

Wow, just wow! Dude stand up and take a bow. Proper bit of perspective - how refreshingly rare! Just be careful those disagreeing types don't chop you on the neck as you lower your head!

Tremendous post!

 

[Quazar]

But are any of those quotes are any more definitive? In August 2016 clearly Freo knew they were starting a rebuild and approximating 4 years. Either way isn't right now the 2nd full season since then? And Ross is being judged already anyway - by the supporter base and the media. I've been happy with what I've seen in pre-season, so now want to see a few games (not just rd 1) in the regular season. I'm don't think we need to burn everything down just because Danyle is playing. The positives far outweigh the negatives don't they?

Yes. They do

 

[Clems Knee]

"We understand that we are rebuilding, it is on the agenda" Lyon, August of 2016.

That says to me that they knew they were in for a full rebuild at some point in time before August. Doesn't really matter exactly when and I agree he is free to massage the message as he sees fit to appease a potentially impatient supporter base. Please just acknowledge we are being fed crap when in March 2018 he is quoted as saying “If you look historically, we’re really going into our second year (of the rebuild) off our second draft.”

Yes, second draft. No, third year of rebuild by your own words and that is ok. Rebuilding is not just drafting it is who you play, how you play etc.

In 2016 we had 3 debuts: Tucker, Collins and Yarran. Blakely, Langdon, Grey and Hughes played their real debuts (not round 22 or 23 2015) in 2016 too. It was unquestionably the first year of our rebuild although I do see what he's getting at with the draft comment. All I ask is that he owns it, he has up to 2020 and let's be real, we are all too familiar with pain to care THAT much.

Whoops forgot to quote you.

It seems that Lyon uses the term “rebuild” mostly when referring to rebuilding the list. That can only happen at draft time. Hence we have had only two drafts since the wheels fell off in early 2016.
There is no feeding of crap in the quote you gave. He has been consistent in that.

You say the rebuild is more than just drafting. In 2016, Freo started playing the kids once we lost the game to Carlton. So yes, the focus was more on developing the list than winning finals. Good stalwarts of the team, like de Boer, Mzungu and Barlow were relegated to the seconds. But giving kids experience is all you can do until the draft comes around. You can’t get new kids in. Until the draft, it’s just a rewire, restump or whatever terms he was using in that season.

2016. wheels fell off. Start playing the kids. 2016 Draft 1st draft of rebuild.
2017. Mostly playing the kids, but with team balance. Some good wins, some floggings. Last years draft the 2nd draft of rebuild.
2018. Still playing kids with team balance (while top players are still healthy will select to win rather than select to give experience). Hopefully big improvement on last year. This year’s draft will be 3rd of rebuild. 3 or 4 30 year olds gone.
2019. If rebuild has failed up to now, Freo won’t make finals. Time to melt. Hopefully we will. Next year’s draft will mean list has been almost completely turned over in 4 years.

 

[Taylor]

Questions will be raised if Fremantle leaps into finals contention this season with the apparent only change being we are a high pressure football team again. Someone will ask if that slipped out of the game to restock the talent pool with poor performances, arguments will be made against that assertion that the young players aren't capable of running out a game with that effort level.

Ultimately, nothing would make me happier than Fremantle winning a final before St Kilda do again, unless it's against St Kilda at Etihad, no I think I'd rather Fremantle makes the finals before St Kilda and wins one.

 

[_007_]

It seems that Lyon uses the term “rebuild” mostly when referring to rebuilding the list. That can only happen at draft time. Hence we have had only two drafts since the wheels fell off in early 2016.
There is no feeding of crap in the quote you gave. He has been consistent in that.

You say the rebuild is more than just drafting. In 2016, Freo started playing the kids once we lost the game to Carlton. So yes, the focus was more on developing the list than winning finals. Good stalwarts of the team, like de Boer, Mzungu and Barlow were relegated to the seconds. But giving kids experience is all you can do until the draft comes around. You can’t get new kids in. Until the draft, it’s just a rewire, restump or whatever terms he was using in that season.

2016. wheels fell off. Start playing the kids. 2016 Draft 1st draft of rebuild.
2017. Mostly playing the kids, but with team balance. Some good wins, some floggings. Last years draft the 2nd draft of rebuild.
2018. Still playing kids with team balance (while top players are still healthy will select to win rather than select to give experience). Hopefully big improvement on last year. This year’s draft will be 3rd of rebuild. 3 or 4 30 year olds gone.
2019. If rebuild has failed up to now, Freo won’t make finals. Time to melt. Hopefully we will. Next year’s draft will mean list has been almost completely turned over in 4 years.

"We understand that we are rebuilding, it is on the agenda" Lyon, August of 2016.

Rebuilding in Lyon's own words before any draft had happened. The rebuild unquestionably commenced in 2016.

“If you look historically, we’re really going into our second year (of the rebuild) off our second draft.” March 2018.

No problem with the draft comment but it is a rewriting of history to suggest we are going into anything but the third year of our rebuild.

 

[wild side]

Ross makes the narrative, in fact Ross is the narrative.
He's been given the tools by Lloyd, who it must be said has done a good job recently. Logue withstanding, jury out on him imo.
But Ross is a powerful character, and I think that's what this club has always needed at the helm. Haven't had many, if any.
This year and next will make or break Ross the boss, but he is one of the great survivors in a game that is carnivorous.

 

[M_rash]

It’s almost like there’s a DUAL NARRATIVE going on or something? If only Ross could articulate this more... a little from column A, and a little from column B. Can’t even state how many times he’s clearly said we are turning the list over, whilst exposing kids who deserve it, whilst trying to win games and be competitive. It’s not really that hard to understand is it?

 

[Taylor]

No problem with the draft comment but it is a rewriting of history to suggest we are going into anything but the third year of our rebuild.

Tune in next week when we discuss whether "a four year rebuild" shows returns in the 4th year or after four years have been spent in it.

 

[_007_]

Tune in next week when we discuss whether "a four year rebuild" shows returns in the 4th year or after four years have been spent in it.

Well, if we assume 2016 as a start year it would see us being serious contenders in 2019. Might be one year off perhaps but if you ask me that's a pretty good effort regardless.

 

[Clems Knee]

"We understand that we are rebuilding, it is on the agenda" Lyon, August of 2016.

Rebuilding in Lyon's own words before any draft had happened. The rebuild unquestionably commenced in 2016.

“If you look historically, we’re really going into our second year (of the rebuild) off our second draft.” March 2018.

No problem with the draft comment but it is a rewriting of history to suggest we are going into anything but the third year of our rebuild.

“It is on the agenda” means that’s what the upcoming draft will do.
There is no rewriting of history. Lyon copped a lot of flak for his rewiring, restumping comments, but he’s been consistent.

 

[_007_]

“It is on the agenda” means that’s what the upcoming draft will do.
There is no rewriting of history. Lyon copped a Lo of flak for his rewiring, restumping comments, but he’s been consistent.

"We are rebuilding"

 

[Clems Knee]

"We are rebuilding"

“We are”.

Bloody Lyon and his existentialism.

 

[Rion]

I think at least in the off-season we're definitely fully committed to the rebuild but each season we're in a win-now mode (untill that becomes untenable at least). Considering we should be challenging for a premiership 2020 you'd hope that by the end of this year we've got 18-20 of our 26 man premiership squad playing together (regardless of how well they're playing). If you think Darcy, Hughes, Cox, Logue, Cerra, Crowden, Brayshaw, Banfield etc etc are all going to be a part of that squad you'd want them going into 2020 with at least 40-50 games under their belt.

I think Ross needs to pick up the speed a little imo.

 

[wayToGo_]

In the interests of finding common ground amongst us all... At least we aren't seeing the Harley Bennell countdown progression...

2016 - 4 years
2017 - 3.5 years
2018 - 3 years
2019 - 2.5 years
2020 - 2 years
2021 - 1.5 years
2022 - 1 year
2023 - 0.75 years
2024 - 0.5 years
2025 - 0.25 years

Also known as the Melbourne rebuild methodology. Nor do we seem to be following the Carlton rebuild progression...

2016 - 4 years
2017 - 4 years
2018 - 4 years
2019 - 4 years
2020 - 4 years
2021 - 4 years
...

And most importantly of all we definitely don't appear to be following the St Kilda rebuild progression...

2016 - 4 years
2017 - 4.5 years
2018 - 5 years
2019 - 5.5 years
2020 - 6 years
2021 - 6.5 years
...

 

[StingBitten]

In simplistic terms doesn’t this all lead to the pointy end of September, 2020? Lyon’s last contracted year and ‘4th year of the rebuild’.

In any event, I do believe at the start of every season RTB believes we are contending for finals, and waits for insurmountable evidence that proves otherwise.

 

[FreoMonocle]

I'd see it more that he plays to win. Players don't want to go out there to get better picks at the end of the year, they go out there to challenge the other team and themselves while they are at it, I think he's like minded. I don't think he's got tanking in his DNA.

That being said, it's not like it's an all or nothing for every next game, there is some pragmatism along the way e.g. resting players in round 22 to attempt to compete better in the finals or sending Blakely back to the WAFL to improve his game when he was still AFL capable and an asset to the team.

 

[danstar]

To many negative nancies here

 

[BarbieITFC]

I think that deep down we're experiencing two things clashing into each other and the selection of Pearce and Sutcliffe has brought those experiences to the fore:

1) we came close to the flag and the close of our window was perhaps one of the most abrupt in AFL history...it took us by shock and I'm sure I'm not alone in still coming to terms with the window being slammed shut.

2) we've never had to rebuild before. Yes we've turned over our list, but a rebuild really needs you to be at the top for a sustained period to rebuild back towards.

Bring those two factors together and it drives an impatience that is unrealistic.

Yes, part of me thinks we could make the 8 this year and I will be genuinely gutted if we lose tomorrow, but...

...then I look at the list now and compare it to this time in 2015 (when we were about to embark on our best ever start to a season). At that time I could name about 10-12 players I was sure were either cooked or not good enough. Now, I probably think we have 5, maybe 6, who I feel the same about (Sutcliffe, Sheri, Ballas, DPearce, Johnson, maybe Spurr) and only Mundy and Sandi who will fall into that category in the coming 2 years - but in Blakely and Darcy we've got replacements lined up.

Like someone else said earlier, I've never been more excited by our list, and I love the fact that (apart from the WeeGirls) the rest of the comp has no idea what's going to hit them in 2020.

 

[Steinfreo]

I think that deep down we're experiencing two things clashing into each other and the selection of Pearce and Sutcliffe has brought those experiences to the fore:

1) we came close to the flag and the close of our window was perhaps one of the most abrupt in AFL history...it took us by shock and I'm sure I'm not alone in still coming to terms with the window being slammed shut.

2) we've never had to rebuild before. Yes we've turned over our list, but a rebuild really needs you to be at the top for a sustained period to rebuild back towards.

Bring those two factors together and it drives an impatience that is unrealistic.

Yes, part of me thinks we could make the 8 this year and I will be genuinely gutted if we lose tomorrow, but...

...then I look at the list now and compare it to this time in 2015 (when we were about to embark on our best ever start to a season). At that time I could name about 10-12 players I was sure were either cooked or not good enough. Now, I probably think we have 5, maybe 6, who I feel the same about (Sutcliffe, Sheri, Ballas, DPearce, Johnson, maybe Spurr) and only Mundy and Sandi who will fall into that category in the coming 2 years - but in Blakely and Darcy we've got replacements lined up.

Like someone else said earlier, I've never been more excited by our list, and I love the fact that (apart from the WeeGirls) the rest of the comp has no idea what's going to hit them in 2020.

People also forget that the first half of 2015 was built on manic pressure and spread and Fyfes first half of a season dominance that I dont think Dangerfield or Martin have put together. Statistically it may not be insane but man he was such a physical beast that 12 rounds it was just freakish. Him doing that papered over some of the cracks for sure. That list overachieved like crazy early and couldnt maintain it.