List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[jedi mind tricks]

For me the issue isn't really whether we're in a rebuild or not. As I said on the best 22 thread, it's no surprise that the club goes into every season rating themselves a chance of making finals, and therefore wanting to win first of all.

The issue is that when we want to win, we still pick people like D. Pearce and Sutcliffe. The issue is that the club still thinks role players are the way to win, even after it was shown last year that we were a better team without them.

Lol Sutty and Pearce have experience are fully fit so can run out a full game. Who replaces them? 2 more 18 year old kids? Freo will debut two today. If they debut four then the chances are even lower of a win.

It's a long season and Ross has already said he's keen to give more youngsters a go.

Ross wants to win not hand out games to rookies.

 

[_007_]

That’s all you can manage?
Plus liking the troll’s posts.

This really shows your agenda.

I'll take you down after work cobber.

 

[Demons09]

For me the issue isn't really whether we're in a rebuild or not. As I said on the best 22 thread, it's no surprise that the club goes into every season rating themselves a chance of making finals, and therefore wanting to win first of all.

The issue is that when we want to win, we still pick people like D. Pearce and Sutcliffe. The issue is that the club still thinks role players are the way to win, even after it was shown last year that we were a better team without them.

Are you saying that Footscray and Richmond didn't have role players, go through all team lists they all have them rebuilding teams as well.

 

[Superkoops]

Yeah we should of started a rebuild in 2014, we started the season winning 9 straight in 2015 and finished first ffs, you and your mates on here should go back to the main board to get more advice from Plugger and Defleco about Ross and Freo.

I remember quite distinctly a RTB press conference prior to round 1, 2015. He was asked a question about our aging list and as usual he waffled on about age and draft pick being irrelevant. Anyway I remember a comment along the lines that the way the season pans out in terms of wins and losses would dictate the direction they take. He specifically talked about McPharlin who was encouraged by the club to go again. He said that if they were struggling at the half way point then he would tap McPharlin out and give A. Pearce a go.

Not much was made of it at the time and quickly forgotten when we won the next 9 games. I agree with the comments that we over-achieved in the first half of 2015 and ran out of gas. Just scraped over the line against a depleted Sydney and had only fleeting moments against Hawks (certainly not from Mayne, Sheridan or the umps).

I’m not sure what happened in the PS of 2016 but in that 2015 draft we didn’t go hard enough - we have only Tucker and Nyhuis to show for it already. There was opportunity to trade out some older players like Barlow with currency and start at least a list transition of sorts. Picking up Yarran whilst talented (and a very late pick), his age pointed to us not expecting such an abrupt window shut, so the rebuild started in 2017. We needed to be more bold in that trade period to pick up some earlier picks rather than just settling for getting that pick 38 for a future 2nd round pick (pick 22).

 

[wayToGo_]

What are we trying to achieve with all this? To prove definitively that Lyon sucks or that he is a god? He's neither as good or as bad as he seems. The sensible description is that he's a very good coach that isn't infallible. Does it really matter if it is year 2 or year 3 of our rebuild? Does any club really know how close to a possible premiership they are? Isn't that they are making changes to become better the important thing? Are we closer now than we were in 2016? Can anything really be said on any of this with any certainty unless it is said retrospectively (eg after winning a premiership)?

Ross will ultimately be judged on whether he achieves success or not and not +- 1 year on the rebuild timeframe. He's been given a timeline (via his contract) to return Freo back into contention and win a premiership. I personally think the signs are looking really good from a list management pov (turned over 22 players in 2 off seasons), development pov (eg Peel's success) and a game plan pov (via what we've seen in JLT and training) but until we start winning regularly again in the regular season can we confidently say we're on track to re-open our premiership window in the coming years?

I'm assuming the over the top response to a couple of player selections is because it's the only thing we can find to complain about at the moment? Don't worry in a few hours we can be vindicated in our selection criticisms whether they cost us the game or alternatively that we still managed to win despite those players being in the team. Good times, enjoy them.

 

[Freo]

Why so much bickering people?
It's game day and footy's back!

 

[The Joker]

Yeah we should of started a rebuild in 2014, we started the season winning 9 straight in 2015 and finished first ffs, you and your mates on here should go back to the main board to get more advice from Plugger and Defleco about Ross and Freo.

At the end of '14 there was 2 retirees (Kep and Gumby) and 3* delistings (Wood, Simpson and Menegola). 5 players, none of whom were best 22 anyway so would have had no effect on 2015. Holding onto Morribito and Duff was the out of good faith, Silvagni and Griffin could have gone and then there was Colon Silvia...

Anyway the point is, hard calls need to be made every year, even if it means paying out contracts. It needs to change to avoid massive drop offs and more 5 year redevelopments!

 

[The Joker]

Does any club really know how close to a possible premiership they are?...Are we closer now than we were in 2016?

That is neither here nor there. What matters is that the club knows when they are no chance of winning the Premiership, otherwise you become Melbourne!!!

 

[dominguez]

'If only our poor players weren't poor and there wasn't an umpiring conspiracy' - non delusional fan accuses other fan of delusion. Right. The 2nd half of 2015 was pretty bad from memory too.

The second half of the season wasn't fantastic but we did enough to finish top of the ladder.

The umpiring was very lopsided in both prelims that year.

 

[wayToGo_]

Anyway the point is, hard calls need to be made every year, even if it means paying out contracts. It needs to change to avoid massive drop offs and more 5 year redevelopments!

All three of the last premiers bottomed out and then rebuilt to win premierships. Sydney manages to top up every year and remain competitive but they've had advantages to do that far beyond what most other clubs (including Freo) have. I'm always confused when supporters get upset when their teams overhaul their list and plummet down the ladder, when the evidence is strong that an aggressive rebuild gives them the best chance at the ultimate success.

 

[dominguez]

The issue is that when we want to win, we still pick people like D. Pearce and Sutcliffe. The issue is that the club still thinks role players are the way to win, even after it was shown last year that we were a better team without them.

There's also a big difference between role players like Matt deBoer, Clancee Pearce, Ryan Crowley, etc compared to Sutcliffe and D Pearce. The former lacked polish but gave their all. Chase, tackle, shepherd, etc. It's hard to see externally what boxes Sutcliffe and Pearce tick to keep getting selected.

 

[_007_]

What are we trying to achieve with all this? To prove definitively that Lyon sucks or that he is a god? He's neither as good or as bad as he seems. The sensible description is that he's a very good coach that isn't infallible. Does it really matter if it is year 2 or year 3 of our rebuild? Does any club really know how close to a possible premiership they are? Isn't that they are making changes to become better the important thing? Are we closer now than we were in 2016? Can anything really be said on any of this with any certainty unless it is said retrospectively (eg after winning a premiership)?

Ross will ultimately be judged on whether he achieves success or not and not +- 1 year on the rebuild timeframe. He's been given a timeline (via his contract) to return Freo back into contention and win a premiership. I personally think the signs are looking really good from a list management pov (turned over 22 players in 2 off seasons), development pov (eg Peel's success) and a game plan pov (via what we've seen in JLT and training) but until we start winning regularly again in the regular season can we confidently say we're on track to re-open our premiership window in the coming years?

I'm assuming the over the top response to a couple of player selections is because it's the only thing we can find to complain about at the moment? Don't worry in a few hours we can be vindicated in our selection criticisms whether they cost us the game or alternatively that we still managed to win despite those players being in the team. Good times, enjoy them.

What's a bloke to do when they all but beg for it?

I already gave him rolleye emoji and it wasn't very effective

That’s all you can manage?
Plus liking the troll’s posts.

This really shows your agenda.

 

[The Anchorite]

Is it just me or are people losing their s**t earlier every year.

 

[dominguez]

I’m not sure what happened in the PS of 2016 but in that 2015 draft we didn’t go hard enough - we have only Tucker and Nyhuis to show for it already. There was opportunity to trade out some older players like Barlow with currency and start at least a list transition of sorts. Picking up Yarran whilst talented (and a very late pick), his age pointed to us not expecting such an abrupt window shut, so the rebuild started in 2017. We needed to be more bold in that trade period to pick up some earlier picks rather than just settling for getting that pick 38 for a future 2nd round pick (pick 22).

In the pre-season of 2016 the club was quite bullish, with quotes along the lines of "we won't fall off the cliff". Unfortunately we moved away from being a pressure team to trying to be more silky like Hawthorn and that's exactly what happened, we fell off the cliff.

I think after the run of wins from 2012-2015 it's understandable that the club thought we had the cattle to challenge again in 2016. Unfortunately they were wrong and it set us back 12 months.

 

[Docker82]

D.Pearce and Sutcliffe give 100% the same way that De Boer, Clancee, Crowley and Suban did. To say otherwise is false.

Sutcliffe is younger than those above and both him and D.Pearce were given long term contracts before we started rebuilding. If that wasn’t the case it could well be different as the list management team would be making the decision based off nothing other than what the players can add going forward.

 

[The Joker]

You are obviously a troll

Whys that?

 

[dominguez]

All three of the last premiers bottomed out and then rebuilt to win premierships. Sydney manages to top up every year and remain competitive but they've had advantages to do that far beyond what most other clubs (including Freo) have. I'm always confused when supporters get upset when their teams overhaul their list and plummet down the ladder, when the evidence is strong that an aggressive rebuild gives them the best chance at the ultimate success.

You either overhaul the list and plummet down the ladder, or select the likes of Sutcliffe and D Pearce and remain competitive like the Swans. At present the club is telling us to be patient and we're halfway through a rebuild but team selection suggests otherwise.

I think we're a massive chance today, but if we lose by 40+ points with Pearce and/or Sutcliffe having a stinker then the pressure on the club will build. Especially if one of their talls has a field day after Hamling and Logue missed the 22.

 

[danstar]

Why are people melting so hard in here, my god we haven't even played a single game yet and the way people carry on, you would think we were winless after 10 games and going on to win the spoon already.

Get a grip people

 

[Lach72]

You either overhaul the list and plummet down the ladder, or select the likes of Sutcliffe and D Pearce and remain competitive like the Swans. At present the club is telling us to be patient and we're halfway through a rebuild but team selection suggests otherwise.

I think we're a massive chance today, but if we lose by 40+ points with Pearce and/or Sutcliffe having a stinker then the pressure on the club will build. Especially if one of their talls has a field day after Hamling and Logue missed the 22.

Logue has a foot injury

 

[The Joker]

All three of the last premiers bottomed out and then rebuilt to win premierships. Sydney manages to top up every year and remain competitive but they've had advantages to do that far beyond what most other clubs (including Freo) have. I'm always confused when supporters get upset when their teams overhaul their list and plummet down the ladder, when the evidence is strong that an aggressive rebuild gives them the best chance at the ultimate success.

No s**t, history suggests every team bottoms out, my point was we fast track it by delisting the players I mentioned, in the part you deleted, as soon as it becomes evident it will effect us in the near future!

For S&G, when did the Hawks, Dogs and Tigers go aggressive?

 

[The Joker]

For every melt, youve got two people telling us about it and 20 people liking it...

 

[wayToGo_]

No s**t, history suggests every team bottoms out, my point was we fast track it by delisting the players I mentioned, in the part you deleted, as soon as it becomes evident it will effect us in the near future!

We've turned over 22 players in 2 years. How many more should we have delisted? We made some mistakes with extending a few contracts too long (which meant the order of those delistings isn't always ideal) but geez once again a few focus in on what happens around the edges.

Happy to have an intellectual conversation/debate but cut the emotive BS like "Just for S&G". If you can't seriously answer your own question then I suggest you do some googling about the trades Hawthorn made and the progression of the players on the Dog's and Tiger's lists.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

The future looks amazing, and I'm loving the kids coming on like they are. I'm as pumped as anyone to see Banfield and Brayshaw debut, but Lyon is not infallible and he (and the MC as a whole) can still make some really dumb decisions while getting most things right.

These dumb decisions should still be scrutinised. If we aren't doing that (by we I mean the club hierarchy), then we just aren't ruthless enough as a club and may not be mature enough to seize our next opportunity.

I just can't see any reason whatsoever why we have selected DP and MJ over a Nyhuis/Duman/Crowden and Hamling/Cox/Hughes. There is literally nothing to gain from those selections. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a deadset moron. Sorry, but f#%k me they are completely indefensible decisions. Sutcliffe I am a little more inclined to understand as he is still potentially going to be in our next challenging side or at least fits the right age profile.

We have plenty of experience on the field already without them.

Those two (DP & Johnno) have been great servants, but they are already finished. We are now just robbing from our future. These are games our younger blokes should be stacking up to speed up the rebuild.

By constantly massaging the message, Lyon is stage managing his own job security, not focusing on the future of the club. He is carefully ensuring he can still somewhat justify playing the senior players by suggesting we are still in the infancy stage of our rebuild, thus requiring senior players to ensure our youngsters aren't overexposed and crumble under the pressure.

This is no longer the case.

Tabs has raised the bat. Blakely has 33 games under his belt, Langdon 27 games, both have carried injuries along the way. Weller before he left had chalked up 47 games. Tucker 31 games, Hughes 24. If we are truly dinkum about rebuilding, at this point (3rd year in!!) we are playing nobody who will not be with us at our next flag run, wearing some losses during the rebuild and getting our young group as much experience and games together as possible so that when they are ready we give ourselves the absolute best fist of it.

Lyon won't cop that, because then the scrutiny is ramped up with additional losses, and all of a sudden he doesn't just get to cruise through to 2020 with no pressure to perform.

Now before I get chastised for being a melter or a naysayer or a s**t supporter let me be clear.

We may very well exceed expectations this year, and I for one am equally as hopeful and buoyant as anybody else on this board about that. Perhaps even more so.

However it will be in spite of odd selection decisions and carefully massaged timelines, not because of them.

 

[The Joker]

We've turned over 22 players in 2 years. How many more should we have delisted? We made some mistakes with extending a few contracts too long (which meant the order of those delistings isn't always ideal) but geez once again a few focus in on what happens around the edges.

Get up to date champ. A poster was ridiculed, even called a troll for suggesting the rebuild should have started in 2014. What I did was put some perspective into his post!

If you struggle with comprehension then I suggest you dont tell someone what they are thinking...

Happy to have an intellectual conversation/debate but cut the emotive BS like "Just for S&G". If you can't seriously answer your own question then I suggest you do some googling about the trades Hawthorn made and the progression of the players on the Dog's and Tiger's lists.

"I'll act like the bigger man but throw a cheapy in for a few likes..."

 

[FreoMonocle]

Lyon won't cop that, because then the scrutiny is ramped up with additional losses, and all of a sudden he doesn't just get to cruise through to 2020 with no pressure to perform.

He gets more out of a list than than most other folks, plenty of stuff can be said about him, but cruising ain't one of them.