Ross Lyon

[sammm]

2009 was the peak in our years,

2010 we dropped away slightly, but stuck to the gameplan & were almost dragged across the line to a GF win by certain players,

2011 was clear to see we were not up to it, that we were 'tired', falling away and others flew past us,

Initially I thought we had lost out when RL made the move to Freo, but can now see we have a coach who seems to have a development focus, which will put us on the steps towards our next successful era,

Unhappy now.......nah,

Excited about the future.........yep!

and if you asked those who see sandy, ie thinda and others, its the saints have fauroites ie ledger not getting a game, .

but if you listen to what lee has said about why he was put back to the vfl staright after the NZe and was told what to do in order to come back in, you have to believe that it cannot be a favourtism policy but stuff that a ledge type of player is not doing. and when he leaves, and may get picked up by freo or whoeve,r he may haven't learnt better.

 

[VDS66]

Back then?

Probably.

I don't think anyone thought that we'd emerge such a strong contender in 09/10.

Not that the board/admin can complain, the argument that Ross should of had an eye on the future can be levelled at them as well...because they were under no illusions what his method was.

By end of 2007 there were plenty wanting Lyon's head and to have GT installed again... I can assure you. It would have been suicide for Butters to instruct Lyon to rebuild given the reason for GT's sacking was that we needed to go to the next level.

There a couple of other minor issues which tend to be glossed over:

We had a few over paid players on heavy back ended contracts such as Ball and Kosi for example, so cap was tight.

Lyon wasn't gifted all those draft pcks like GT did... not did a Gopddard fall into his lap.

A promising young player who played finals in 2008 named Allen had to retire early.

So there were other factors that led to recruiting decisions... very much like money ball.

2009 is when we peaked. Our game plan was new. THAT is the one that got away. 2010 we wre lucky to draw as has been mentioned already.

IMO Lyon over achieved given what he had at his disposal. It's easy to point to his faults but reality is that all coaches pretty much have them

 

[Freomaniac]

Fair assessment of your playing stocks and you possibly learned from our Lyon problems. This probably because you had to, after the crazed trading and picks of Schwab and Connelly.

As to your end of year ritual hunt for a key forward (2011 - Mitch Clark, 2012 Travis Coke) irrespective of $$$ offered, or coaches in place, you may still struggle to find that person to travel West, because at the end of the day, you are still Fremantle.

Being Fremantle Doesnt mean any thing. I said this many times before... even if the previous targets we didn't get come over, there are other ways to get that forward...

1. Use a 1st round pick to get the best Key Forward Available.

2. Get a mature aged Key forward aged between 21-25 in the PSD or Rookie Draft.

3. Get an experienced and out of favour forward like Jesse White.

Freo will not get Bent over in the trade table.

A freo fan famously said this on our board a few days back...

"I have been a Freo fan since 1995. When it came to trading and drafting, Our club was run like there was a monkey throwing darts on a dartboard to choose which player we will select to join us"

Freo are smarter than 10 years ago.

 

[Freomaniac]

For everyone older, they take a spot from a potential kid that can be developed.

It was a strategy that the administration supported at the time, but to argue that Ross was something he wasn't at St Kilda is just plain foolish.

It appears he won't be allowed similar strategy at Freo.

He wont be allowed to as he cant Afford to considering Pav, Sandi, McPharlin will be at the end of their careers.

When it came to getting Danyle Pearce, I reckon Ross Lyon did suggest it. But the CEO in Steve Rosich and General Operations manager in Chris Bond both had final say on getting Pearce. CEOs do overlook the Salary cap, drafting and trading.

 

[joop]

By end of 2007 there were plenty wanting Lyon's head and to have GT installed again... I can assure you. It would have been suicide for Butters to instruct Lyon to rebuild given the reason for GT's sacking was that we needed to go to the next level.

There a couple of other minor issues which tend to be glossed over:

We had a few over paid players on heavy back ended contracts such as Ball and Kosi for example, so cap was tight.

Lyon wasn't gifted all those draft pcks like GT did... not did a Gopddard fall into his lap.

A promising young player who played finals in 2008 named Allen had to retire early.

So there were other factors that led to recruiting decisions... very much like money ball.

2009 is when we peaked. Our game plan was new. THAT is the one that got away. 2010 we wre lucky to draw as has been mentioned already.

IMO Lyon over achieved given what he had at his disposal. It's easy to point to his faults but reality is that all coaches pretty much have them

I don't generally buy into the Lyon over achieved with what he had. Yes we peaked in 09, but I still believe (probably a minority) that a couple of changes to the 10 gf side and we would've won. Out mcqualter & eddy, in Steven and armitage. Obviously it's easier looking at that in hindsight, but both were young and had showed enough that they could've had more of an impact than the 2 that did play. Young players in Blair and especially side bottom really helped the pies. Again, easily said in hindsight.
Lyon is an exceptional coach don't get me wrong

 

[blktreacle]

I agree, Lyon is a brilliant coach, but i think that his biggest weakness is his player turnover. and by that i mean he just didn't bring enough young players into the side. he just seemed to be playing the same side week in, week out for 4 years, only in his last season did he start playing more youngsters and by then it was too late. over the same period of time, Geelong and Collingwood were consistently bring new players into their teams and they are still up in the top echelon of teams in the competition.

I can see the same thing happening with fremantle in a few years

 

[Freomaniac]

I agree, Lyon is a brilliant coach, but i think that his biggest weakness is his player turnover. and by that i mean he just didn't bring enough young players into the side. he just seemed to be playing the same side week in, week out for 4 years, only in his last season did he start playing more youngsters and by then it was too late. over the same period of time, Geelong and Collingwood were consistently bring new players into their teams and they are still up in the top echelon of teams in the competition.

I can see the same thing happening with fremantle in a few years

That was Ross Lyons possible downfall.

Keep in mind that was an interesting point. Considering your team made the top 4 from 2008-2010, at the time it would of been insane to cull the list after years in the top 4. So at the most maybe 3-4 players de-listed every year to slowly replace the Ageing vets.

I still dont see Ross Lyon do the Same thing at Freo. One thing will be certain, He will be forced to bring new players in After some of our stalwarts retire in the end of 2014.

 

[Xavier Menzies]

Ross Lyon is the best coach in the AFL. Fremantle will go on to finish second and win there first final vs the cats. Bookmark it. Sky is the limit for his squad.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Being Fremantle Doesnt mean any thing. I said this many times before... even if the previous targets we didn't get come over, there are other ways to get that forward...

1. Use a 1st round pick to get the best Key Forward Available.

2. Get a mature aged Key forward aged between 21-25 in the PSD or Rookie Draft.

3. Get an experienced and out of favour forward like Jesse White.

Freo will not get Bent over in the trade table.

A freo fan famously said this on our board a few days back...

"I have been a Freo fan since 1995. When it came to trading and drafting, Our club was run like there was a monkey throwing darts on a dartboard to choose which player we will select to join us"

Freo are smarter than 10 years ago.

Good post. Agreed that you have been incredibly badly run with drafting for a considerable period of time, but now have it as it should be. I can sympathise on poor draft choices and actions, as we are now paying the price for that.

I do love the visual of the Schwab monkey throwing darts at the draft list to select players.

The difficulty you have is distance from other parts of Australia to recruit some of the absolute marque players who may be available on the free market. But as you said, if that is not available there are other options available for you.

I would wish you luck, but can't with Lyon in place there as coach. Maybe a couple of decades after he has left your club, I will be able too.

 

[stkildathunda]

The culture of our club has changed - and very much for the better.
It had to change - we were a basket case during the eighties.
Ken Sheldon was a big influence - he changed things on field.
Skip ahead a bit
Malcolm Blight recognised how far behind the other clubs we were when he was appointed coach and brought about some changes
Grant Thomas also orchestrated a number of changes. He also epitomised our very problem at the same time trying to perform multiple roles.
The club in Thomas's time recognised the need for a complete restructure and these changes were implemented and among them were created new roles for specialist personnel within the football department.
Ross Lyon brought a game plan that was proven using the Swans model and he brought with him an expectation of total commitment by his players and his staff.
He had the clay at St Kilda to mould himself a very good team. The core of the club had made a pact that they would stick together to achieve group success (during the Thomas era) - this core of players were role models for the rest. Lyon tended to create a preferred playing list in the preseason and try and stick to those players all season. To him younger players did not provide the level of fitness or commitment that he required and he recognised that he didn't have time to focus on bringing kids up to the level he required. Instead he took ordinary players and gave them roles. He excelled at turning ordinary players into very useful players but he was a poor motivator of those he didn't include in his original plan. He saw Luke Ball as a liablity because of his lack of speed and his ability to spread. Gaertner, Lynch, Walsh and Hutchings and many more have all had their dreams of playing at St Kilda thwarted by Ross Lyons nature.

The club lost a little bit of class when Lyon arrived. The character of a person was only important if it led to that player performing well for the club.
People were being brought in without any regard for the type of person they are. Andrew Lovett is a perfect example. Lyon recognised that other clubs were focusing on speed and the Saints were vulnerable to a game plan that involved speedy players carrying the ball forward before our defence could react. Many clubs had adopted elements of the Lyon game plan so Lovett was the type of player that could benefit us. Until, that is, you find out that he has major character flaws as a person. He was lazy, tardy, he was self indulgent and he was arrogant. In short time he pissed off just about everyone at the club. He failed to train properly and he (allegedly) r*ped a drunk woman and was sacked.

Scott Watters has more class. The club have gone back to recruiting great people who are talented. He recognised that St Kilda lacked a number of cultural aspects and has encouraged them including bringing in past players as specialist coaches. Giving past champions a degree of respect that they were never given - bringing them back to the club and a whole lot more. Long term Watters is a much better coach and a much better influence than Lyon was but Lyon may have learned from his mistakes at St Kilda and possibly is a better coach for it.

I'm sorry but how can you say Watters is better coach then RL? What has he done or shown that he will take us that next level or even back to finals?

Yes he has brought all these old players back to club. He is giving kids a game but that's about it.

 

[Persevering Saint]

I'm sorry but how can you say Watters is better coach then RL? What has he done or shown that he will take us that next level or even back to finals?

Yes he has brought all these old players back to club. He is giving kids a game but that's about it.

Whether he's a better coach overall is yet to be proven, that's true. But that he and the recruiters put more emphasis on character, seems hard to deny. That's what K is saying, here.

 

[VDS66]

Regardless of his faults, Lyon's legacy on this club - like GT's (whom I have little time for) - is undeniable. There is no such thing as a perfect coach. History will how that Lyon is our most successful coach since Jeans... until someone else wins a flag.

Watters has proven nothing yet. Given his list and priorities, I would like to see an improvement next year. Similar to the Bulldogs this year. Watters is an untried assistant. and let's remember that we have had many decent, good bloke coaches which have turned out to be total crap. Watson is a case in point.

It's just too easy to say look at the mess you left us in now because had the players done the right thing in 2009, Lyon would have been a club legend.

Just because he left, supporters should still show him a bit more respect. One thing I can almost put my house on is the Freemantle will win a flag before we do.

 

[karaoke]

The Ross Lyon chapter, as a supporter, was a contribution to the club which I thoroughly enjoyed (but could have enjoyed somewhat more with a cup or two). All respect to what he brought to the club - I'll leave the recent recruiting argument to the side.

His chapter was waning in 2011, after the GF's we played previously.

Now, it is another chapter, with Watters at the helm. Looking forward to this as well, especially the new kids that are currently playing and the excitement with what may await us at the end of season trading period.

I'll wait for the dust to settle for Watters coaching career, but if he's able to bring on a group of young kids to set up our next period of success, I'll view him in a positive light, whether that is premiership success or not.

 

[KingJim]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

As a long suffering Saints supporter (20+ years and counting) it took me quite some time to get the foul taste out of my mouth, the ringing in my ears, the churning in my gut over the way that Lyon left St Kilda. I don't think I will ever get the phrase "I exercised a clause in my contact", as Lyon tied to explain his betrayal, out of my head. In saying that, I am certainly now glad that he left.

Yes he brought us some wins and some discipline and some respect in the football world. I very much enjoyed watching us win games. I enjoyed watching us stop sides scoring for a whole 1/4 of football. I enjoyed winning finals and playing in the GF's (even though the draw literally nearly killed me).

At the same time as enjoying our wins I did not enjoy the dour, rugby-like game plan. It was excruciating to watch at times. To score or not to score, that is the question. I prefer to score. When I watch a game of AFL footy I want to see some scoring, some run and carry, taking the game on a little.

And now where are we with little development of players under the Lyon reign? I think for a few years he helped the club and in the end did quite a bit of damage. Overall, I still have a bad taste in my mouth when I think of Lyon. Not that I do very often.

 

[Freomaniac]

Good post. Agreed that you have been incredibly badly run with drafting for a considerable period of time, but now have it as it should be. I can sympathise on poor draft choices and actions, as we are now paying the price for that.

I do love the visual of the Schwab monkey throwing darts at the draft list to select players.

The difficulty you have is distance from other parts of Australia to recruit some of the absolute marque players who may be available on the free market. But as you said, if that is not available there are other options available for you.

I would wish you luck, but can't with Lyon in place there as coach. Maybe a couple of decades after he has left your club, I will be able too.

Yeah People love it when Monkeys are mentioned but it was true at the time that we had people that were acting like chimps that ran our club.

Fair enough with your opinion with Ross lyon. Even if he does not guide us to a flag, Im still happy if he gave is a 3-6 years in a row of finals. It might not be a lot to some teams but it means a lot to me. I dont think we need a marquee player to make us successful. I rather recruit some local WA kids then develop them as we should of done when Freo 1st started in 1995.

 

[Freomaniac]

2009 was the peak in our years,

2010 we dropped away slightly, but stuck to the gameplan & were almost dragged across the line to a GF win by certain players,

2011 was clear to see we were not up to it, that we were 'tired', falling away and others flew past us,

Initially I thought we had lost out when RL made the move to Freo, but can now see we have a coach who seems to have a development focus, which will put us on the steps towards our next successful era,

Unhappy now.......nah,

Excited about the future.........yep!

Looking at your Squad this season, I see a bit of Mark Harvey at Freo back in 2007 and 2008 at the club: 1 season of culling the dead wood and getting some good kids.

You squad isn't as bad as 1st feared. Saints do have good, experienced Players in the 23-27 year age range with Armatage, Geary, Sam Gilbert, James Gwilt, Mc Evoy, Farren Ray and Jack Steven. I still remember your team did well against my mob at Subi considering half of your team were aged 21 or under with 20 games or less under the belt.

Even though guys like Dal Santo, Riewoldt, Dempster, Sam Fisher, Clinton Jones and Montagna are in the twilight of their careers. I expect all of them to play on for another 2-3 seasons. So by 2015/2016 when all those guys are gone, All those decent players the Saints have 21 or under will have another 40-60 games under the belt.

 

[Freomaniac]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

As a long suffering Saints supporter (20+ years and counting) it took me quite some time to get the foul taste out of my mouth, the ringing in my ears, the churning in my gut over the way that Lyon left St Kilda. I don't think I will ever get the phrase "I exercised a clause in my contact", as Lyon tied to explain his betrayal, out of my head. In saying that, I am certainly now glad that he left.

Yes he brought us some wins and some discipline and some respect in the football world. I very much enjoyed watching us win games. I enjoyed watching us stop sides scoring for a whole 1/4 of football. I enjoyed winning finals and playing in the GF's (even though the draw literally nearly killed me).

At the same time as enjoying our wins I did not enjoy the dour, rugby-like game plan. It was excruciating to watch at times. To score or not to score, that is the question. I prefer to score. When I watch a game of AFL footy I want to see some scoring, some run and carry, taking the game on a little.

And now where are we with little development of players under the Lyon reign? I think for a few years he helped the club and in the end did quite a bit of damage. Overall, I still have a bad taste in my mouth when I think of Lyon. Not that I do very often.

You have a good point there. But had Ross Lyon guided your side to at least one flag in that 2009-2010 period, you would of have a different opinion about him.

Im a long suffering dockers fan from the end of 2001. So I have felt my share of pain.

 

[Kildonan]

You have a good point there. But had Ross Lyon guided your side to at least one flag in that 2009-2010 period, you would of have a different opinion about him.

Im a long suffering dockers fan from the end of 2001. So I have felt my share of pain.

Some of us have been suffering decades longer than you. 2001 is hardly long suffering

 

[Freomaniac]

Some of us have been suffering decades longer than you. 2001 is hardly long suffering

True but Some freo fans have suffered from the beginning since 1995 with all those bad trades. At least your team has won a flag and been in Multiple grand finals. Freo have done neither.

 

[VDS66]

Anyone who claims that watching us in 2009 was boring has selective memory loss IMO.

 

[Riccardo11]

Im a long suffering dockers fan from the end of 2001. So I have felt my share of pain.

 

[blktreacle]

Im a long suffering dockers fan from the end of 2001. So I have felt my share of pain.

get back to us in at least 40 years

 

[Persevering Saint]

Wait, has this thread become a "No, WE'RE bigger losers than you!" competition thread?

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

Wait, has this thread become a "No, WE'RE bigger losers than you!" competition thread?

lol.. wa wa.. Our team hasnt won a flag for 45 years!.....
Well ours has never won a premiership!

Lets face it Fremantle has been a sad case for the AFL since its conception and if teams like GWS and GC go past them and us and win a premiership its just beyond a joke.
I'm glad Ross went to Freo, he's a gun coach, but we needed to bottom out and Freo just made top 4 arguably without their 2 best players for most of the year.
I hope they succeed. No team should go 40 years with out a premiership.
I know because I'm a saints supporter.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

No ok, we concede, you win. Freo are much more disappointing and are better long term losers than the Saints. May they have ultimate success after:

• Ross Lyon has left them as coach
• Saints have won our next flag