Analysis Ross Lyon

[big bootaaaaah]

I thought when Crowley went out freo saw the light and realized hard tagging was old school and a waste of time and they were playing better footy for it and bulldogs copied you, but I couldn't believe the tagging going on Sunday and Priddis of all people being double tagged at times was baffling. I hope for your sake Lyons trick up sleeve is to win your own ball and not chase tails by tagging or he may tag freo out of the finals.
Just my 2c.

 

[Aussiblood]

Fitness isn't simply about having a bigger body. It is about being able to grind out the run that is essential at the end of the game. The work that guys like Suban, de Boer and Mzungu have put in over the course of several pre-seasons is difficult to short cut.

This. Has a 'tank', rather than IS a tank.
I'd imagine to execute 4qtrs of RTB plan requires solid fitness and it outweighs the upgrade in skills the rooks may possess over a couple of our current 22.

 

[yakamoto]

Depends though. How much petrol is drained from the collective tanks each time the ball is turned over.

 

[rodney hoo]

This. Has a 'tank', rather than IS a tank.
I'd imagine to execute 4qtrs of RTB plan requires solid fitness and it outweighs the upgrade in skills the rooks may possess over a couple of our current 22.

I've never seen anyone run quicker for longer than an accurate 30/50m kick. Hit targets saves running.

 

[E Shed]

Sorry, aren't we top of the ladder?

If you did a form ladder of the last 6 rounds or whatever we wouldn't be anywhere near the top of it. Or a percentage ladder which RTB himself said is one of the best form indicators.
I'm not sure what is difficult to understand about the idea that despite being on top we are some way off being the best team.
It doesn't mean we are no good or that RTB isn't an amazing coach for what he's getting out of a team with almost no actual forwards & some players who wouldn't start in a lot of other teams.
It just means we aren't the best team in it going into finals. If we win the cup it will be a miracle & an absolute coup for Lyon.


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[refresh]

With the injuries to the backline i think our mids have had to defend much deeper removing some of the spread and attack from forward of centre but allowing us to keep winning. As the back six come back together over the next three weeks the mids will not need to be so deep and we will be more attacking.

I hope and pray!!!

 

[youmewe]

If you did a form ladder of the last 6 rounds or whatever we wouldn't be anywhere near the top of it. Or a percentage ladder which RTB himself said is one of the best form indicators.
I'm not sure what is difficult to understand about the idea that despite being on top we are some way off being the best team.
It doesn't mean we are no good or that RTB isn't an amazing coach for what he's getting out of a team with almost no actual forwards & some players who wouldn't start in a lot of other teams.
It just means we aren't the best team in it going into finals. If we win the cup it will be a miracle & an absolute coup for Lyon.


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The AFL ladder from rds 10-20 looks like this:

Hawthorn 9-1 1157-686 168.7% (Ave. ladder position of opposition: 8.8)

Western B's 8-2 1005-673 149.3% (13.7)

North 8-2 1035-766 135.1% (11.9)

West Coast 7-1-2 973-710 137.0% (8.6)

Richmond 7-3 839-698 120.2% (7.7)

Freo 7-3 767-736 104.2% (10.2)

Geelong 6-1-3 816-702 116.2% (9.5)

Adelaide 6-1-3 922-841 109.6% (10.1)

Sydney 6-4 800-829 96.5% (9.1)


Over the past 5 rounds it looks like this:

http://afltables.com/afl/teams/allteams/last20.html

 

[Frimental Fan]

If you did a form ladder of the last 6 rounds or whatever we wouldn't be anywhere near the top of it. Or a percentage ladder which RTB himself said is one of the best form indicators.
I'm not sure what is difficult to understand about the idea that despite being on top we are some way off being the best team.
It doesn't mean we are no good or that RTB isn't an amazing coach for what he's getting out of a team with almost no actual forwards & some players who wouldn't start in a lot of other teams.
It just means we aren't the best team in it going into finals. If we win the cup it will be a miracle & an absolute coup for Lyon.


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You might be surprised to know that we rank OK over the past 6 weeks E Shed............ not top but ahead of e.g. West Coast. It's actually Hawks, Bulldogs, North, Freo and then West Coast. Amazing how the media create perception! Richmond are 7th. I'm guessing we'll move up the form ladder this week when we knock off North

 

[Square Peg]

With the injuries to the backline i think our mids have had to defend much deeper removing some of the spread and attack from forward of centre but allowing us to keep winning. As the back six come back together over the next three weeks the mids will not need to be so deep and we will be more attacking.

I hope and pray!!!

I agree with you, but the midfielders folding back only allowed us to keep winning against the nuffies. It resulted in us getting slaughtered against the hawks.
Actually on the weekend I thought we came out in the first quarter and set up more attacking and it bit us on the arse. So I think you are right we are likely to see that happen in the next 3 weeks. Let's hope that's enough time to sort it out!

 

[salim malik]

You might be surprised to know that we rank OK over the past 6 weeks E Shed............ not top but ahead of e.g. West Coast. It's actually Hawks, Bulldogs, North, Freo and then West Coast. Amazing how the media create perception! Richmond are 7th. I'm guessing we'll move up the form ladder this week when we knock off North

Also the much perceived Eagles scoring power is the same as ours .So much for their champion forwards and our lack of forwards.We have also played in the wet.This perception of WC as the 2nd best side is pushed non stop by the media.Unfortunately some continue to fall for the hype.

 

[E Shed]

You might be surprised to know that we rank OK over the past 6 weeks E Shed............ not top but ahead of e.g. West Coast. It's actually Hawks, Bulldogs, North, Freo and then West Coast. Amazing how the media create perception! Richmond are 7th. I'm guessing we'll move up the form ladder this week when we knock off North

So 4th over 6 rounds and according to youmewe 6th over 10 rounds. Which is pretty much what I said. On form and percentage we are a fair way off being the top side going into finals. I don't know how this can be disputed.
We have played a brilliant season considering the state of our backline and its an amazing achievement to be where we are at this time of year. But we aren't the best team on form going into finals or close to it. Doesn't mean we can't win and I'm happy to be an underdog going into September despite being on top of the ladder.
Time will tell.

 

[Nothing]

If we'd played North's run over the last 6 games, we'd be 6-0 with a percentage of 150%. That's the problem with looking at parts of the draw, with the massive discrepancies it can be misleading. NM play us, WB and Richmond in the remaining 3 games, if they lose them all they miss the 8. Nobody will care that they were the form team from an arbitrary point into time to another. Likewise, if we go forward and make the GF, nobody will care that we weren't strong from rounds 15 to 20 (or any other arbitrary points).
The season is 22 games, winning in round 1 is worth the same as round 22. This is all just qualifying for the real race starting in September.

 

[Spoken4]

If you did a form ladder of the last 6 rounds or whatever we wouldn't be anywhere near the top of it. Or a percentage ladder which RTB himself said is one of the best form indicators.
I'm not sure what is difficult to understand about the idea that despite being on top we are some way off being the best team.
It doesn't mean we are no good or that RTB isn't an amazing coach for what he's getting out of a team with almost no actual forwards & some players who wouldn't start in a lot of other teams.
It just means we aren't the best team in it going into finals. If we win the cup it will be a miracle & an absolute coup for Lyon.


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Hawks weren't the best team going into the finals in 2014. Nor were Sydney in 2012. Nor were Geelong in 2009. Nor were WC in 2006. Nor were Sydney in 2005. A lot can change in terms of form going into and even within the finals series. Just have to look at Port last year. And even in the grand final itself, a team can just have a day out where everything goes right whereas their opponent has everything go wrong. This is how I saw the 2014 grand final.

 

[awaremind]

It's a waste of a season to play such an old and experienced team and not win the premiership.

Well we really should finish top two , so we are pretty well placed, hope we can recreate some early season form. Ffm in 2013 we lost to saints, one loss to eagles isnt the death blow

 

[BusinessMan]

Well we really should finish top two , so we are pretty well placed, hope we can recreate some early season form. Ffm in 2013 we lost to saints, one loss to eagles isnt the death blow

We also got belted by Geelong (2nd) and Richmond (5th) during the second half of that season.

 

[Mr Peabody]

I think of it as Ross having made a major contribution in turning our club from amateur to professional.

He has high demands, clearly works his butt off, commands respect and connects with the youth under his management. His style is very systematic and analytical and I often wonder whether the downside to his style is that we are prone to over thinking. Mundy made the comment recently that our group tends to over correct which in a positive sense reinforces that the players listen but in a negative way, we're possibly a bit robotic and perhaps the natural instincts of the players suffer as a consequence of trying to implement the disciplines.

It's been said many times over - one hopes we recapture the balance we had in the early games. If I had to define it, the trademark RTB defensive disciplines were there but equally the lads seemed to be unshackled and let their instincts dictate. Watching Pav attempt to chip rather than kick a team lifting bomb on the weekend and Hilly pass off rather than slot it from beyond 50 signals to me that we're overthinking things (e.g lower the eyes). The irritating lady that sits behind me that has shouted "just kick it" for years might be on to something.

 

[malpaso]

I think of it as Ross having made a major contribution in turning our club from amateur to professional.

He has high demands, clearly works his butt off, commands respect and connects with the youth under his management. His style is very systematic and analytical and I often wonder whether the downside to his style is that we are prone to over thinking. Mundy made the comment recently that our group tends to over correct which in a positive sense reinforces that the players listen but in a negative way, we're possibly a bit robotic and perhaps the natural instincts of the players suffer as a consequence of trying to implement the disciplines.

It's been said many times over - one hopes we recapture the balance we had in the early games. If I had to define it, the trademark RTB defensive disciplines were there but equally the lads seemed to be unshackled and let their instincts dictate. Watching Pav attempt to chip rather than kick a team lifting bomb on the weekend and Hilly pass off rather than slot it from beyond 50 signals to me that we're overthinking things (e.g lower the eyes). The irritating lady that sits behind me that has shouted "just kick it" for years might be on to something.

Yet we all recognize that the players need to adjust their style during a game based on what the opposition is doing. We cannot simply bomb (as we are prone to do) when we don't have marking targets or we are outnumbered by the opposition. Our players have to recognize when to keep possession rather than moving fast into a turnover. I think Lyon has been experimenting with this and hence the patchy form.

 

[Aussiblood]

I've never seen anyone run quicker for longer than an accurate 30/50m kick. Hit targets saves running.

And when we dont have the ball? Pressuring, contesting... how is that accomplished in the 3rd or 4th when a youngster is outta petrol tickets?

 

[rodney hoo]

And when we dont have the ball? Pressuring, contesting... how is that accomplished in the 3rd or 4th when a youngster is outta petrol tickets?

They haven't run as much due to more possession football. It's a fine line both ways.

 

[Grandstan]

Given how far ahead we were/still are on the ladder, and how irrelevant that is to actually winning the premiership (as the Pies and Saints well know in recent years) Lyon would be copping it if we WERE caning it right now. It'd have us worried we were not pacing ourselves for the games that truly matter now - the finals.
Yes, our form could be better, but then how did West Coast look drawing with Gold Coast just a few weeks ago? What kind of form did Hawthorn look in losing to Richmond, who are now in a fight to make the 8?
What good did form do Richmond last year come week 1 of the finals?
Yes it's possible that the wheels might be falling off for Freo, but it's way too early to make that call.

 

[Mr Peabody]

Yet we all recognize that the players need to adjust their style during a game based on what the opposition is doing. We cannot simply bomb (as we are prone to do) when we don't have marking targets or we are outnumbered by the opposition. Our players have to recognize when to keep possession rather than moving fast into a turnover. I think Lyon has been experimenting with this and hence the patchy form.

RTB has had issue with our decision making for many weeks now. If Pav or Hilly had made the call to nail those goals, it would have been team lifting. Not sure if they were being selfless. We miss an in-form and available Ballantyne - he has that impact on the team when he is on.

 

[Proud SJW]

So?

Lyon made stupendous improvement to us in the first year he was here. By the end of 2012 we were playing football as good quality as anyone else in the comp. The issue is whether there have been any improvements since. We're still a good team that gets it done against most teams, but by no means do we play the best football in the competition. We outrun the minnows and hope to grind it out against the best. That doesn't look to me to be a coach that has evolved in the time he has been here.

I don't think you're looking at the full picture. This is one of those occasions I'm picking on just one post to reply to when it could just have easily been 12 others, for the record.
Got a feeling this is going to be a long one.

One thing I haven't noticed being mentioned much is the impact of the expansion clubs on drafting. For the last few years we've been two or three picks down on where we would normally have been due to that alone. It's be a bit of a mission to figure out where we might have been in terms of personnel had that not occurred, but it is what it is. I think we've done ok, with that in mind, but not exceptionally well.
2008 & 2009 were our obvious solid years in drafting terms. 2010 was a bit of a bust, 2011 was pretty solid. 2012 hasn't shown much so far apart from Spurr (oh, Josh....), 2013 we haven't really seen enough of (A. Pearce the obvious exception), 2014 looks exciting.
In terms of drafting history, considering Lyon came on board late 2011, we've done alright - regardless of whether or not you believe Lyon has an impact on that side of things at Fremantle. The only trades you could claim were a loss (and even that is debatable) is Rhys Palmer at the end of 2011, and maybe Roberton (only given the current situation).
Since then, our retention rate has been fantastic. We've signed everyone we need to sign, and I firmly believe that this is a strong indication the players are fully on board. That's a plus for Lyon.

Additionally, what other clubs have been able to do, and we tend to miss out on because we're in WA, is stock up on needs via trades. Fremantle doesn't get to take advantage of that too often, and when you think about it only the Eastern clubs really do, with some exceptions. God knows we've tried.

This all goes back to the argument that you do the best you can with what you have.

We've got some quality players, we've got some journeymen. The obvious lack of KPP's (particularly forward) is a glaring issue, and once Pav has gone we're going to have some even more serious issues there. But the significant loss this year, for me, has been Ballantyne.
Yes, I know some of you were on his case from the outset. But that guy adds something to our attack whether he's in form or not. I'm going to wax a little psychological here and mention that, in terms of my obersservations of goal celebrations alone, Ballantyne affects Pavlich. Witness a Ballantyne goal, or a Ballantyne-assisted Pavlich goal - Pav is happy. He goes for the man love, and the hugs. What I've been seeing in Ballantyne's absence is not that - more a bit of a fist pump, a lot of "god-I'm bored" on his face. I might be overstating it, but I've seen it. Pavlich is happier and better when Ballas is around, and that's a fact, from my point of view. The whole damned team plays better, on the whole.
I have absolutely no doubt Taberner's performance is affected as well. Sure, he's dropped a few marks. We all know that. But since Ballantyne has been absent, there's been a marked inability on the part of Freo to take advantage of the spilled ball. Taberner's development in the latter stages of this year has been hindered significantly by that alone.

Forward issues.

A defensive game plan, therefore, is pretty much a choice Lyon has been forced to make. To restrict the opportunities for the opposition to score is not necessarily a matter of stubbornness on Lyons' part, but more one of necessity. As has been noted before, he's made change to try to make us more an attacking team, but those changes have taken a bit of a back seat once player losses became an issue. We're once more primarily defensive.

The entire point to what I'm saying here is that there are some of you who seem to be decrying Lyon's overly-defensive gameplan. Fact is, earlier this year when we had all our ducks in a row, we didn't have too many issues with it. We were scoring better than most, and while not as well as some we were restricting them enough to be able to win .. well, every game, for a long while.

Strategy issues? I disagree. Lyon has done very well by us, the fact that we've played finals every year since his arrival being a pretty damned good indicator of the man as a coach. And let's face it, as I've pointed out once before - the style of say, Beveridge, would land us in hot water pretty damned fast. Not saying he's a bad coach, just saying Freo don't have the cattle to pull it off. I also firmly believe Clarkson has the manpower to look a better coach than he is, without meaning to take anything away from him as a coach.
I can imagine Lyon in charge of Hawthorn. I really don't think they would have lost to Essendon, at any stage of the year. Score a few goals less, maybe. Lose? To anyone? Less likely than it has been in 2015.

The only issue I have with Lyon is the seeming reluctance to look for the wow factor, the "revelation".
Either of Weller or Blakely might have given us that, this year. Grey was in the mix for selection last year, before he got injured, so I'll not count him. A Pearce got his chance through injury, and took it. He's been our revelation, but only due to adverse circumstances. The single down side to Lyon is that reluctance, and I think there have been missed opportunities this year to at least check to see if another revelation is there.

Quite an essay. I need to go make dinner.
So.... the best coach we've had? Check. Easily.
Played consistent, finals-potential football every year since Lyon came on board? Check.
Player retention? Check.
Respect for the club? Check.
Looking for the next big thing? .... Pen hovering over the box wondering if it's going to be a tick or a cross.

 

[Proud SJW]

...We miss an in-form and available Ballantyne - he has that impact on the team when he is on.

We miss Ballantyne full stop, in form or otherwise... but I'm glad there's at least one other who sees it.

 

[Proud SJW]

Mayne being in crap form for much of last year and this one has been killing us.

Last year, yes, but he's been better in the latter half of this year.
Unfortunately for him, that's the same time other players went down and he's been forced to take a more prominent role. No luck, has Mayne.

 

[Proud SJW]

Actually, having now read through the last few pages of this thread, there are more than one noticing the effect Ballantyne's absence is having.
Salim, for example. My bad.