Analysis Ross Lyon

[theGav56]

Looks like you have no response, after I disproved your argument.

The only reason you stick with experienced players, is if the youth are not good enough to force them out. Do tell me which Hawk youth players are better than the starting 22? Whereas in Freo case an argument can be made the youth will actually provide more benefit than hinder the team.

So are you suggesting Lyon has a secret 2nd reason? Or are you saying Lyon simply does not have the talent evaluation skills that you posses?

 

[Banker]

So are you suggesting Lyon has a secret 2nd reason? Or are you saying Lyon simply does not have the talent evaluation skills that you posses?

Lyon is risk averse, its well known.

To execute his game plan he wants players to have the experience, discipline and stamina. That is why MDB/Suban are gifted game because they have all three of these aspects. I'm sure he is aware these players are not skilful but in his eyes there is no other alternative. This approach was fine few years back as we never played in a GF, however after our recent final performances is madness to pursue the same strategy.

 

[theGav56]

Do tell me which Hawk youth players are better than the starting 22? Whereas in Freo case an argument can be made the youth will actually provide more benefit than hinder the team.

Hawks brought in 2 established players this year in Frawley and O'Rourke in a clear indication that they do not have confidence in the youth on their list in those positions yet. That is precisely where I see our club with regards to Weller and Blakely apart from the fact that we did not recruit experienced players to top up the list because they are not ready.

Bringing in 2 experienced players into a premiership side* is a pretty clear indication from the best coach going around that he does not think first year players are the way keep you in contention let alone win a premiership.

* EDIT Speaking of risk averse!

 

[theGav56]

Lyon is risk averse, its well known.

To execute his game plan he wants players to have the experience, discipline and stamina. That is why MDB/Suban are gifted game because they have all three of these aspects. I'm sure he is aware these players are not skilful but in his eyes there is no other alternative. This approach was fine few years back as we never played in a GF, however after our recent final performances is madness to pursue the same strategy.

I am sorry, but what you said was The only reason you stick with experienced players, is if the youth are not good enough to force them out. But what you seem to be saying now is that Lyon is fatally flawed as a coach because he is risk averse and that is the reason he is sticking with experienced players???

 

[Banker]

Hawks brought in 2 established players this year in Frawley and O'Rourke in a clear indication that they do not have confidence in the youth on their list in those positions yet. That is precisely where I see our club with regards to Weller and Blakely apart from the fact that we did not recruit experienced players to top up the list because they are not ready.

Bringing in 2 experienced players into a premiership side is a pretty clear indication from the best coach going around that he does not think first year players are the way keep you in contention let alone win a premiership.

How can you know if a player is 'ready' if you don't play them? With this attitude A.Pearce was destined for another season in the WAFL, if not for Dawsons and Silv injuries.

We don't have the luxury of bringing experienced players, so you go to the next option which is youth. You know why the Hawks brought in 2 experienced players? Because you need change to stay ahead of the game and to challenge.

 

[Banker]

I am sorry, but what you said was The only reason you stick with experienced players, is if the youth are not good enough to force them out. But what you seem to be saying now is that Lyon is fatally flawed as a coach because he is risk averse and that is the reason he is sticking with experienced players???

Can you even distinguish between personal opinion and what Lyon is currently doing.....

 

[theGav56]

How can you know if a player is 'ready' if you don't play them? With this attitude A.Pearce was destined for another season in the WAFL, if not for Dawsons and Silv injuries.

We don't have the luxury of bringing experienced players, so you go to the next option which is youth. You know why the Hawks brought in 2 experienced players? Because you need change to stay ahead of the game and to challenge.

What you will find at most football clubs is that they monitor all their players. They know fairly precisely how many klms they can handle and how they perform when fatigued. They know if they understand and can follow the game plan. That is how they know they are ready. When they are performing at the level required they are given an opportunity.

Hawthorn brought in experienced players because their youth are not ready. Do you seriously think otherwise?

 

[theGav56]

Can you even distinguish between personal opinion and what Lyon is currently doing.....

Sure. But you stated a "fact". It is not the only reason. There can be several reasons why you stick with experienced players, and clearly one of those reasons is "if it is working for you", which as we are sitting top of the ladder seems like a possible argument to be made. Your opinion is much more accurate when discussing teams who have failed during the season and are preparing for next season than it is describing genuine premiership contenders lurking in the higher end of the ladder.

 

[Unique Name]

theGav56

You've made some good points which I agree with mostly. But you didn't answer Bankers point about A Pearce.

We would have never seen what Pearce had to offer this season if it weren't for injury, especially because of our ladder position.

I think Ross is overly conservative to a fault. To me De Boer is a net negative to the team. Trying out another first year player in his place either improves the team or keeps the status quo. I don't think you can get any worse than De Boer so it's a risk I would be willing to take.

I've been vocally negative about De Boer most of the season, after then tripe he dished up in the derby how anybody can think he is best 22 I just don't know.


Side note: Did we select the most unfit kids in the draft? I've seen plenty of first years kids run out full games this year. Why can't ours?

 

[Proud SJW]

I am sorry, but what you said was The only reason you stick with experienced players, is if the youth are not good enough to force them out. But what you seem to be saying now is that Lyon is fatally flawed as a coach because he is risk averse and that is the reason he is sticking with experienced players???

He's not really sure what he's saying - changes from post to post.

 

[Proud SJW]

theGav56
Side note: Did we select the most unfit kids in the draft? I've seen plenty of first years kids run out full games this year. Why can't ours?

Just on this bit, you can see the effect of first year players in St Kilda's game tonight. Particularity in the fourth, the inexperience showed and the saints blew a few opportunities a more experienced team would have taken to advantage. Just a touch too much enthusiasm.
In the finals, that will count for more than it would in the home and away season.

I've said before I agree we blew chances to play the kids earlier this season and that I wasn't too pleased with that, but at this point it probably wouldn't work to our advantage. Having said that, if De Boer doesn't get the vest I'll be about as pissed as everyone else.

 

[Kram]

theGav56

You've made some good points which I agree with mostly. But you didn't answer Bankers point about A Pearce.

We would have never seen what Pearce had to offer this season if it weren't for injury, especially because of our ladder position.

I think Ross is overly conservative to a fault. To me De Boer is a net negative to the team. Trying out another first year player in his place either improves the team or keeps the status quo. I don't think you can get any worse than De Boer so it's a risk I would be willing to take.

I've been vocally negative about De Boer most of the season, after then tripe he dished up in the derby how anybody can think he is best 22 I just don't know.


Side note: Did we select the most unfit kids in the draft? I've seen plenty of first years kids run out full games this year. Why can't ours?

A young raw player had to wait for an opportunity until quality experienced players playing in the same position were unavailable due injury, hardly unusual or groundbreaking stuff.

 

[E Shed]

A young raw player had to wait for an opportunity until quality experienced players playing in the same position were unavailable due injury, hardly unusual or groundbreaking stuff.

He got to play a few full games and now he's best 22. Weller got a Q, had 8 touches and setup a goal with a lovely kick inside 50 after a nice run, an 80M play that resulted in a goal. As soon as Fyfe is available he goes out and DeBoer keeps his spot. When was the last time DeBoer made an 80M play and delivered a pin point ball to a forwards advantage.
Perhaps if Weller had got to play a few full games earlier in the year he too would be best 22 going into finals and the overall standard of the team would be just that bit higher and more attacking.
I can't argue with the results we've got this year and don't want to but I think we've played it a touch too safe.

 

[Kram]

I'm just talking about AP specifically, for the record I agree with you E Shed on de Boer v Weller

 

[ydraw]

What you will find at most football clubs is that they monitor all their players. They know fairly precisely how many klms they can handle and how they perform when fatigued. They know if they understand and can follow the game plan. That is how they know they are ready. When they are performing at the level required they are given an opportunity.

What a happy coincidence then that Alex Pearce became ready at exactly the same time other players were unavailable. 1 week earlier and he would have been shit.

 

[malpaso]

What a happy coincidence then that Alex Pearce became ready at exactly the same time other players were unavailable. 1 week earlier and he would have been shit.

You will also find that we were covering for him in our defense in the first 2-3 games.

 

[malpaso]

It's painful to see the lack of faith on this board in the best coach this club has ever had. Just do not understand it at all.

 

[malpaso]

When was the last time DeBoer made an 80M play and delivered a pin point ball to a forwards advantage.

Don't know because he's usually in doing the things that would knock the stuffing out of someone like Weller.

 

[Kram]

I would have liked to have seen someone get an opportunity against say Brisbane and or Carlton but a lot have been going over the top with the not playin da yoof thing.

 

[Kram]

Don't know because he's usually in doing the things that would knock the stuffing out of someone like Weller.

That's all well and good and I've always admired de Boer's effort but Weller potentially has a level of skill and class as a footy player that Matt can only dream about.

 

[ydraw]

I would have liked to have seen someone get an opportunity against say Brisbane and or Carlton but a lot have been going over the top with the not playin da yoof thing.

Our record of playing youth is abysmal compared to every other club in the AFL.

Alex Pearce proves all the babble about "not being ready" to be just that - babble. He wouldn't have played this year if it wasn't for injuries to all our key defenders at once. But he was easily up to the challenge. There are probably 4-5 other guys in the 2nds also up to the challenge, but instead we get to watch Spuds not make the distance from 40m out week after week.

 

[E Shed]

Don't know because he's usually in doing the things that would knock the stuffing out of someone like Weller.

And so you are happy that Deboer gets selected every week. Thats great.
You can't please all the people all the time and its ok for us to disagree. Its not a binary argument where there is a right or wrong.
Having a bitch about selections doesn't equate to I hate Ross Lyon and think everything he does is wrong. I love where we are as a club.

 

[Mudd]

this thread isn't going anywhere, no one thinks ross is a poor coach, everyone agrees he is the best coach this club has ever had and has our team playing at a consistency not seen before, we'll find out in a few weeks if Ross has changed anything to avoid another straight sets exit.

 

[nurries]

That's all well and good and I've always admired de Boer's effort but Weller potentially has a level of skill and class as a footy player that Matt can only dream about.

Except Weller has played about 2 quarters and now is injured or not training. Why do you think that is?

 

[Steinfreo]

people acting like our youth have done amazingly when given a go this year. youth from other clubs have oerformed better than alex and weller. neither scored a rising star nom. they were talking about it on the radio today. the comp would be of a higher standard is some guys around vfl wafl safl were given a go rather than this youth obsession. its become a constant argument on here this year.