Autopsy Round 10, 2017: Sydney vs Hawthorn

[swansfan51]

Yes I do!
Absolutely.
Do you think it becomes a little more difficult to win if you go into a game planning for 22 v 22 & are then told after the first minute you need to lose one player for the rest of the match?

Yep I totally agree, both teams had advantages.

Hawthorn had the advantage of 1 more rotation for pretty much the whole game, and 2 rotations once Reid stopped creating space in the forward line.

Sydney had the advantages of home ground, a superior squad, fewer injuries (pretty much the whole best 22 available), more free kicks, plus Supercoach John Longmire.

 

[Tedeski]

I thought it was a very ordinary decision

If it's any consolation to you both, it allowed Hawthorn to win & now they think they are back in town & don't need to make "Clarkos catastrophic changes" to their team that not long ago insipidly lost by 86, 86 & 75 points within 4 games of each other. I said to my equally mad Swan supporting brother before the game, that it would be a game where the loser will actually be better off as they will begin to tincker with the list knowing that finals becomes less likely. That's us boy & girls.

Port will beat them by 50 plus.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

Ask any AFL player and they will tell you that losing rotations is enormous. Then watch the jelly legs of Swans players in the final 10 minutes.

Underestimating the consequence of Reid and Lloyd being knocked out is stupid. And overestimating the gap in talent between 2 AFL sides of 22 players is equally stupid.

 

[Tedeski]

Yep I totally agree, both teams had advantages.

Hawthorn had the advantage of 1 more rotation for pretty much the whole game, and 2 rotations once Reid stopped creating space in the forward line.

Sydney had the advantages of home ground, a superior squad, fewer injuries (pretty much the whole best 22 available), more free kicks, plus Supercoach John Longmire.

North and saints had your mentioned same advantages against us but lost so it is not the advantage across the league that you are trying to portray it to be but going into a game with a plan & having to adjust, which we did well after the first quarter, once a rotation down, robs a team of 10 minutes while it adjusts. It was the jump the Hawks needed over us but I was very impressed, upon a second view of the game last night, that we actually clawed back & hit the front in a 6 goal turnaround from that first quarter. The last 5 minutes just came down to run in the legs & it is the reason why I asked the question of Kings post regarding how easy it was for Roughy to mark, but after Millsy's skewed kick, our guys were broken & couldn't get back to defend.

"Supercoach John Longmire" erred badly in not picking the fittest two way running player on our list to play in that game against the Hawks, in Jake Lloyd!

 

[Tedeski]

Ask any AFL player and they will tell you that losing rotations is enormous. Then watch the jelly legs of Swans players in the final 10 minutes.

Underestimating the consequence of Reid and Lloyd being knocked out is stupid. And overestimating the gap in talent between 2 AFL sides of 22 players is equally stupid.

I purposely didn't mention the loss of Reid for the second half because it was irrelevant as the Hawks had two first gamers!

 

[The King!]

Yes I do!
Absolutely.
Do you think it becomes a little more difficult to win if you go into a game planning for 22 v 22 & are then told after the first minute you need to lose one player for the rest of the match?

Id just about take the rotations excuse if this game where a one off poor effort, you could build a case and say Lloyd down then Reid hurt, but lets not pretend this is not a bigger issue and the way we play is ongoing.

but to answer your question of course yes it is more difficult to win, but if you are using that as an excuse for the way we played the game, then no I do not accept that at all.

 

[The King!]

Ask any AFL player and they will tell you that losing rotations is enormous. Then watch the jelly legs of Swans players in the final 10 minutes.

Underestimating the consequence of Reid and Lloyd being knocked out is stupid. And overestimating the gap in talent between 2 AFL sides of 22 players is equally stupid.

ask any afl player as long as its not an ex player who disagrees

 

[The King!]

North and saints had your mentioned same advantages against us but lost so it is not the advantage across the league that you are trying to portray it to be but going into a game with a plan & having to adjust, which we did well after the first quarter, once a rotation down, robs a team of 10 minutes while it adjusts. It was the jump the Hawks needed over us but I was very impressed, upon a second view of the game last night, that we actually clawed back & hit the front in a 6 goal turnaround from that first quarter. The last 5 minutes just came down to run in the legs & it is the reason why I asked the question of Kings post regarding how easy it was for Roughy to mark, but after Millsy's skewed kick, our guys were broken & couldn't get back to defend.

"Supercoach John Longmire" erred badly in not picking the fittest two way running player on our list to play in that game against the Hawks, in Jake Lloyd!

So because we are down two rotations, with 30 seconds to go, elite professional super fit athletes suddenly had no ability to even try to man up or move to hawks players especially their number 1 key forward and captain?

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

and one runs like treacle.

 

[The King!]

Yes I do!
Absolutely.
Do you think it becomes a little more difficult to win if you go into a game planning for 22 v 22 & are then told after the first minute you need to lose one player for the rest of the match?

one of the best posters on this board pre game last week before the bounce said and I quote below.... if you take that as gospel then rotations or not he conceded Sydney just arent good enough anyway to beat Hawthorn


Match ups!
We always trouble & beat North & the Saints.
We always struggle to put Collingwood away in consecutive meetings.
We always fail to dominate the Hawthorn game style. It's a phenomenon that exists between certain teams.

 

[Tedeski]

So because we are down two rotations, with 30 seconds to go, elite professional super fit athletes suddenly had no ability to even try to man up or move to hawks players especially their number 1 key forward and captain?

When not at our best & since we have been uncomfortably sitting in the bottom third of the table, then I'm sad to say yes!

 

[Tedeski]

one of the best posters on this board pre game last week before the bounce said and I quote below.... if you take that as gospel then rotations or not he conceded Sydney just arent good enough anyway to beat Hawthorn


Match ups!
We always trouble & beat North & the Saints.
We always struggle to put Collingwood away in consecutive meetings.
We always fail to dominate the Hawthorn game style. It's a phenomenon that exists between certain teams.

I definitely stand by that but having watched the replay last night, I would have done my dough had Lloyd played out the match. I would have done it cold so I was very lucky to win based on Lloyd coming off so early. In fact, I'll go as far as saying that we would have won by 30 plus points. We failed to deal with losing a play maker in Lloyd, a role he has assumed brilliantly this season & has been critical to us with kickins & two way gut running, especially while Hanners has been down.

Our game plan works well if we apply heavy pressure to the kicker but we failed this in the first quarter until we regrouped.

Look! We lost the game so any positive spin I put on it will be hollow to many supporters that are gunning for any wrong move by the team & coaches.
We are 3 & 7 after 10 rounds. As I said at 0 & 6 after losses to Collingwood & Carlton, we are a bottom team in season 2017. The worst thing that can happen is that we think we have a chance of finals. At our best we have been a win three & lose one out of 4 games. The last 4 weeks represents that but the 6 losses prior put us way behind the good teams this year. The Hawks are far from a good team & are in trouble going forward but they still had key elements of their team play & then finish their work well enough to get over the line by 1 goal.
Two goals from outside 50 & one from an running angle by two of their polished players! Ah well! I'll at least take away the lucky dollars!

 

[The King!]

I definitely stand by that but having watched the replay last night, I would have done my dough had Lloyd played out the match. I would have done it cold so I was very lucky to win based on Lloyd coming off so early. In fact, I'll go as far as saying that we would have won by 30 plus points. We failed to deal with losing a play maker in Lloyd, a role he has assumed brilliantly this season & has been critical to us with kickins & two way gut running, especially while Hanners has been down.

Our game plan works well if we apply heavy pressure to the kicker but we failed this in the first quarter until we regrouped.

Look! We lost the game so any positive spin I put on it will be hollow to many supporters that are gunning for any wrong move by the team & coaches.
We are 3 & 7 after 10 rounds. As I said at 0 & 6 after losses to Collingwood & Carlton, we are a bottom team in season 2017. The worst thing that can happen is that we think we have a chance of finals. At our best we have been a win three & lose one out of 4 games. The last 4 weeks represents that but the 6 losses prior put us way behind the good teams this year. The Hawks are far from a good team & are in trouble going forward but they still had key elements of their team play & then finish their work well enough to get over the line by 1 goal.
Two goals from outside 50 & one from an running angle by two of their polished players! Ah well! I'll at least take away the lucky dollars!

I rate our list highly, maybe I am too positive about where the list is

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

I rate our list highly, maybe I am too positive about where the list is

So do I. Especially when they are on the park

That's why we'll play finals.

 

[Tedeski]

I rate our list highly, maybe I am too positive about where the list is

Too Positive?
Mate! You need to stop rating the club so highly with your blind faith!
It's just not trendy!

 

[BloodySwan]

The one that broke me was the one given against Towers for contact below the knees. He barely made contact, had his head over the ball, recovered the ball............

It was an extraordinary decision.

Unless I'm mistaken for it to count as a free Towers would need to roll into the players legs right? It's not a matter of just grabbing the ball. Was a shocking call

 

[Kennedy Parker]

I just cant believe roughead basically walked over alone to mark for the last shot

Players were out on their feet by that stage. No one was running in the last passage of play which could be attributed to having two less rotations.

There's no excuse for our performance in the first half though, fitness shouldn't be a major issue at that stage. It was simply a failure to adapt quickly enough to Hawthorn's game and adjust to stop them retaining possession. Losing Lloyd early doesn't prevent us from manning up Hodge who was loose man in the Hawthorn back line.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

BxB still channelling the Member for Warringa with a bit of the optimistic knight in MP's Holy Grail.

We have a good list with a number of promising youngsters. However it has been propped for too long by our small number of A-graders. Heeney and Mills look to be 200+ game A graders...Allir and Nooman add some class. The rest are a mix of solid B graders (Llloyd, Jones,Reid, Papley, Smith) and depth players (Hewitt, Robinson. Cunningham, Rohan, Sinkers, Naismith)

Of the kids, Dawson, Haywood, the Pelican and Maibaum, Fisher and Fox) seem to have a future. OFlo has some real talent but may take a few years to get strong enough to win his own ball.

We have a number of holes on the list. Father time has caught Macca and KJack and I expect both to retire this year. We also have a number of list cloggers - B Jack, Laidler, Marsh, Towers, Tippet, Rose, Foote, Leonidis - some of whom can't find the ball and others who butcher it.

Obviously we will be stuck with some cloggers for another year through contracts and probable inability to trade these guys, unless they are steak knives to a deal - eg yes Collingwood you can have Reid but you will have to take Towers for a first and third rounder.

Our weaknesses remain leg speed and disposal. The incomparable Buddy aside, Kennedy, Hanners and Nosey P lack speed. While Papley helps we need some genuine goal kickers on the forward line.

For all the talk about our recruiting, we have bombed a number of our selections from early rounds- Rohan, Rose, Towers. I really hope Florent does not add to the list.

I think the next draft and whatever trading we do need to focus on speed, disposal and creativity.

 

[Punts]

BxB still channelling the Member for Warringa with a bit of the optimistic knight in MP's Holy Grail.

We have a good list with a number of promising youngsters. However it has been propped for too long by our small number of A-graders. Heeney and Mills look to be 200+ game A graders...Allir and Nooman add some class. The rest are a mix of solid B graders (Llloyd, Jones,Reid, Papley, Smith) and depth players (Hewitt, Robinson. Cunningham, Rohan, Sinkers, Naismith)

Of the kids, Dawson, Haywood, the Pelican and Maibaum, Fisher and Fox) seem to have a future. OFlo has some real talent but may take a few years to get strong enough to win his own ball.

We have a number of holes on the list. Father time has caught Macca and KJack and I expect both to retire this year. We also have a number of list cloggers - B Jack, Laidler, Marsh, Towers, Tippet, Rose, Foote, Leonidis - some of whom can't find the ball and others who butcher it.

Obviously we will be stuck with some cloggers for another year through contracts and probable inability to trade these guys, unless they are steak knives to a deal - eg yes Collingwood you can have Reid but you will have to take Towers for a first and third rounder.

Our weaknesses remain leg speed and disposal. The incomparable Buddy aside, Kennedy, Hanners and Nosey P lack speed. While Papley helps we need some genuine goal kickers on the forward line.

For all the talk about our recruiting, we have bombed a number of our selections from early rounds- Rohan, Rose, Towers. I really hope Florent does not add to the list.

I think the next draft and whatever trading we do need to focus on speed, disposal and creativity.

Jack is contracted for another 2 years

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Hopefully he will read the writing on the wall

 

[MarkP]

All Mills had to do was a kick a footy 40 metres.

There were a few other clutch plays as well of course but wow. Kick a ball a middling distance.

No excuses. Fatigue did not impact in the first quarter where, yet again, Clarkson and his players just lol'ed at us.

Sad.

 

[Syd]

Players were out on their feet by that stage. No one was running in the last passage of play which could be attributed to having two less rotations.

Another reason why Mills shoulda had a ping rather than that half arsed pass.
Assuming that went through for a behind instead of a goal, the defence has more time to get coordinated and stop the quick movement down the other end and that shot at goal.

We had it, simply lost it.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

yet again

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

BxB still channelling the Member for Warringa with a bit of the optimistic knight in MP's Holy Grail.

We have a good list with a number of promising youngsters. However it has been propped for too long by our small number of A-graders. Heeney and Mills look to be 200+ game A graders...Allir and Nooman add some class. The rest are a mix of solid B graders (Llloyd, Jones,Reid, Papley, Smith) and depth players (Hewitt, Robinson. Cunningham, Rohan, Sinkers, Naismith)

Of the kids, Dawson, Haywood, the Pelican and Maibaum, Fisher and Fox) seem to have a future. OFlo has some real talent but may take a few years to get strong enough to win his own ball.

We have a number of holes on the list. Father time has caught Macca and KJack and I expect both to retire this year. We also have a number of list cloggers - B Jack, Laidler, Marsh, Towers, Tippet, Rose, Foote, Leonidis - some of whom can't find the ball and others who butcher it.

Obviously we will be stuck with some cloggers for another year through contracts and probable inability to trade these guys, unless they are steak knives to a deal - eg yes Collingwood you can have Reid but you will have to take Towers for a first and third rounder.

Our weaknesses remain leg speed and disposal. The incomparable Buddy aside, Kennedy, Hanners and Nosey P lack speed. While Papley helps we need some genuine goal kickers on the forward line.

For all the talk about our recruiting, we have bombed a number of our selections from early rounds- Rohan, Rose, Towers. I really hope Florent does not add to the list.

I think the next draft and whatever trading we do need to focus on speed, disposal and creativity.

Are you my father? He's a miserable old campaigner too.

A-graders (now and future) - Franklin, Heeney, Mills, Jones, Aliir, Papley, Naismith, Lloyd, Hayward, Florent, Kennedy, Parker, Hannebery, Rampe, Grundy
B-Graders - Towers, Smith (due to age), Reid, Rohan, Hewett, Melican, Cunningham, Marsh, Sinclair, Tippett, Fox, Robinson, K Jack, Newman
Untried so unknown at the level - Maibaum, Dawson*, O'Riordan, Fisher, Cameron, AJ
List cloggers (no trade value and won't play for us) - B Jack, Laidler, Foote, Leonardis, Rose, Talia
Retirees - McVeigh

*I think Dawson will be an A-grader

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Must say I admire your optimism (albeit a little sight challenged). Either that or you are a prince of satire or truly the brain damaged ex PM.