Autopsy Round 4, 2023: Hawks go home at half time v Cats

[hawkman]

We did play a much more keeping’s off game style against North. Problem is the better teams just shut down our movement and don’t let us do that.

Sydney completely shut down our outlet kicks and forced us up the line.

I hope we keep taking the game on and don’t just start dropping a heap of numbers back. It’s such a terrible style of play to watch and won’t teach our players much of anything.

And we have no outlet forward who can take a mark since the rucks struggle to. We need another tall forward who can take a mark in the team. The balance in the forward line is wrong. Last year it was best balanced when there was a tall(Lewis), medium tall(Gunston) and a resting ruck when we had one available.

We are really missing having that extra tall to kick to

 

[FactsNotBS]

Careful. This will trigger a few

Yeah probably just need to realize he went off early in the third after rolling his ankle and was listed by AFL during the game as injured...but came back on after treatment and it seemed he couldnt run left or right.

 

[peetoo]

I know we are a couple of days removed from the game and I've read half of the thread but there seems to be a real question if whether we tried in the 2nd half.

Myself, I can't ever remember playing, be it average country league level or GFL, and not playing to win. Sometimes, a lot actually in some teams, we didn't win, but I can't imagine the guys didn't go out after half time each week with the intent to win, be it the first 5 minutes of the 3rd quarter, the first half of the 3rd quarter, whatever was the message given by Sam at HT. I'm sure it wasn't that at the HT beak as we were winning, all over the ground, and winning by being more competitive, harder at the ball, running back hard when we didn't have the ball so we were involved in the defensive structures. It just doesn't make sense that our guys would drop the ball like that. There was so much to like about the first 2 quarters and we should have been further in front.

To those who spend a lot of time assessing our setups and structures, was there a marked change in any positional setups? i.e. did Meek take more centre bounces in Q3 (I know there were a lot more in Q3), did we play a less familiar centre 3 more often such as Moore, Ward and Day as an example?

We just got belted and allowed them to waltz out of the centre and give their forwards all the time they needed to impact the scoreboard. I can understand when some structural changes happen but wouldn't have thought this was the time to change if it did in fact occur. I also can't understand why we didn't go back to our best centre combinations, like we did earlier in the game. This is all only relevant if said changes happened or maybe didn't.

I'm like many, excited about what happened when we showed we could stand up in the heat of the battle, the kids doing well and taking control of the game but equally bemused about what happened at HT and beyond.

I didn’t see massive changes. Some said Nash was subdued due to a knock. The theory is they left players in position knowing they were losing as a learning exercise

 

[chopflop]

Yeah probably just need to realize he went off early in the third after rolling his ankle and was listed by AFL during the game as injured...but came back on after treatment and it seemed he couldnt run left or right.

Maybe that's why we capitulated so badly in the 3rd

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I look at what we’ve done with our list and I think about Sam Mitchell as a person and I can’t help but feel that short term gain is something that he really doesn’t give a s**t about.

I’m all for Sam’s vision for the team but I don’t think that copping the kind of thumping we have suffered is doing much for a young team’s confidence.

You can have a longer term vision but you need to face the realities of what is happening in the here and now. And some of the stats we are copping at the moment (that third quarter one is absolutely horrendous) just aren’t sustainable. No coach can survive those kind of results in a consistent basis.

Sam needs to stem the bleeding, at least make us competitive most weeks. And not playing Jai on the ball isn’t helping with that.

 

[hawkman]

I’m all for Sam’s vision for the team but I don’t think that copping the kind of thumping we have suffered is doing much for a young team’s confidence.

You can have a longer term vision but you need to face the realities of what is happening in the here and now. And some of the stats we are copping at the moment (that third quarter one is absolutely horrendous) just aren’t sustainable. No coach can survive those kind of results in a consistent basis.

Sam needs to stem the bleeding, at least make us competitive most weeks. And not playing Jai on the ball isn’t helping with that.

Games like on Monday you could absolutely sell to a young group. We dominated around the ground for a half, just didn't capitalise on the scoreboard. 2nd half shows if you aren't at that level you get punished

 

[kirbatron]

would be surprised if the group thought we'd be this uncompetitive even tho McCartney believes the second half of the year will be better (which I find strange with a super young squad)

 

[H00t]

I’m all for Sam’s vision for the team but I don’t think that copping the kind of thumping we have suffered is doing much for a young team’s confidence.

You can have a longer term vision but you need to face the realities of what is happening in the here and now. And some of the stats we are copping at the moment (that third quarter one is absolutely horrendous) just aren’t sustainable. No coach can survive those kind of results in a consistent basis.

Sam needs to stem the bleeding, at least make us competitive most weeks. And not playing Jai on the ball isn’t helping with that.

Jai was playing on ball though. We had him in there during the avalanche. He was at the first bounce. Missed the next couple then was in the middle for the next 4-5 when it all went pear shaped.

Mitchell had our best mids in the middle in the third. They just weren’t good enough when Geelong turned it on.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

would be surprised if the group thought we'd be this uncompetitive even tho McCartney believes the second half of the year will be better (which I find strange with a super young squad)

I’m actually quite surprised at how we have started the year.

Last year we had a couple of bad losses but we also had some very good wins and quite a few narrow losses. I was actually cautiously optimistic that we would improve from last year and even (with a stroke of luck) sneak into the finals (in hindsight very optimistic).

Even in a development year I don’t think any coaching panel would want to see the out of control losses we have seen in three of the first four games.

 

[The hands of stone]

Games like on Monday you could absolutely sell to a young group. We dominated around the ground for a half, just didn't capitalise on the scoreboard. 2nd half shows if you aren't at that level you get punished

My bro in law made an interesting point .

He said if our first half was our second half even if we copped a decent loss , people would have been pretty positive about it .
But because it was first half followed by the avalanche , people forget the first half .

Im with you coaching wise its actually a perfect teaching/coaching tool to use with players

 

[Leather Poisoning]

I think there are a couple of things going on here:

1. We rely too much on confidence
- when we're up, we're very up. The alternative is to either rely on star players (we don't have them - and you saw what Cameron did in the first half when we were smashing them) or very well drilled processes and structures (still learning them). So the flucuation makes sense from that perspective.

2. Mitchell is testing everyone
- Jai and McKenzie in forward line roles. I think he was testing Worpel and Nash in leading roles in the midield. Also - Nash was not the same after that head knock and it affected the game more than anyone is giving credit to. There are some weird decisions but I think he's already learnt that Jai and McKenzie are reliable centre square players. Gotta learn who else we can rely on.

3. The other team is pretty bloody good.
- *en Geelong

4. We only had one Key Position player on the field - and he's a much better player when not playing key position!
So when we 'lose our structure' or stop running with confidence to cover each other- there's a real lack of spoiling and marking power as a get out of jail card.

5. Garry Rohan is a hack
- the most impactful thing he did in the game was tackle CJ into the ground after play had stopped.

6. We are at the raw bottom - when Clarko came in he had to clean out all the Piciiones, and Beautmonts, and mid range, mid aged players. They've all be cleaned out. Our list is not so different to the early GC and GWS sides. Less TOP end talent, but better overall side. Even so - we are gonna get SPANKED a lot before it all comes together.

 

[eldorado]

He said if our first half was our second half even if we copped a decent loss , people would have been pretty positive about it .
But because it was first half followed by the avalanche , people forget the first half .

I think, if that was the case, almost inevitably, the interpretation would have been that Geelong put the cue in the rack, having done what they needed, and that our second half was largely meaningless...

 

[Judd2Sewell]

would be surprised if the group thought we'd be this uncompetitive even tho McCartney believes the second half of the year will be better (which I find strange with a super young squad)

There's no chance the club thought that we would be this uncompetitive. Copping losses was a given, but how we have played has been extremely disappointing so far.

 

[HawthornHawk]

There's no chance the club that thought we would be this uncompetitive. Copping losses was a given, but how we have played has been extremely disappointing so far.

I really think our forward structure (or lack thereof) is killing us at the moment and making it really hard for some of our younger guys to improve.

Gunston leaving and Lewis' injury couldn't have come at a worse time, especially when you consider our lack of ready pressure forwards. It's no wonder our mids take the wrong option going in forward 50 often, there's often no clear target and noone directing where our forwards should be leading. Once the opposition have it up there we don't have the forward pressure required to keep it in.

The biggest concern I have is that there's no certainty Lewis will be back to his best anytime this season, we have a decent small forward brigade in the VFL but they need more time to develop. Unfortunately there will be a fair few more of these beltings.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

I really think our forward structure (or lack thereof) is killing us at the moment and making it really hard for some of our younger guys to improve.

Gunston leaving and Lewis' injury couldn't have come at a worse time, especially when you consider our lack of ready pressure forwards. It's no wonder our mids take the wrong option going in forward 50 often, there's often no clear target and noone directing where our forwards should be leading. Once the opposition have it up there we don't have the forward pressure required to keep it in.

The biggest concern I have is that there's no certainty Lewis will be back to his best anytime this season, we have a decent small forward brigade in the VFL but they need more time to develop. Unfortunately there will be a fair few more of these beltings.

Lewis is a huge loss, IMO he was primed for a big season.

But that doesn't explain the lack of pressure and lack of cohesion across all three areas of the field. Realistically we could expect maybe more pressure coming from our F50 whilst we run a smaller forward line.

Concerningly our backline looks much worse and less organised than last season, and only a few of our players look like they have actually improved so far.

 

[Billyc]

There's no chance the club that thought we would be this uncompetitive. Copping losses was a given, but how we have played has been extremely disappointing so far.

Yes nobody contemplated this. Our first month has been worse than even the biggest critics predicted

 

[grumbleguts]

For those interested in how the Cats set out to block our rucks at the centre bounce this post from a Carlton supporter sums it up perfectly.

Umpiring - Blicavs blocking in the ruck

This is reminiscent of the desperation of tigers-fans trying to will the football inside the goal posts from the brisbane game last year Watch the vision in the OP. If you don't think Meek's position when he taps the ball is BEHIND where he was when he knee'd Blicavs in the guts, you're...

www.bigfooty.com

The Geelong nuffies in that thread are incredible. One said "It's now happened to geelong in 3 out of 4 games." Um... did you just read what you wrote? So it only happens to Geelong and it happens all the time... um... It's not me, it's you.

 

[Alite]

The Hawks played SIX good quarters of footy between the VFL and that AFL, and 2 quarters that they will learn from.

All in all, it was a… arr… (cough)… a more than acceptable Monday.


That 3rd Qtr will stick in my memory for a long time... and I am sure it will be remembered more so by the players = a perfect teaching opportunity on how to stop a run-on from the opposition. It may be to go to defensive structures, or to forget defence and go all-out team-attack, to retain the ball, or to start a dust up.

Could you imagine, after the interest in the noodle card, we put up the following card 15 mins into that 3rd Qtr. The Geelong players would definitely be put off their game.

 

[The hands of stone]

I think, if that was the case, almost inevitably, the interpretation would have been that Geelong put the cue in the rack, having done what they needed, and that our second half was largely meaningless...

That is true

 

[The hands of stone]

Yes nobody contemplated this. Our first month has been worse than even the biggest critics predicted

I'm not suprised at all .

We have played 2 grand finalists from last year , a team more progressed than us and the side we played in our own weight division we beat .

We are playing pretty much the youngest and most inexperienced teams weekly . That alone leads to losses and a lot of them while the team grows .

Thats not taking into account the massive change to personal , coaching and everything else going on while you do a major list rebuild.

The only cure is time . More games , training and another pre season two or three to get everything honed in .
There will be more of Monday to come, good patches mixed in with chaos .

I think people wanted a rebuild but now its really here the actual reality is hard to stomach as its a hard few seasons ahead .

 

[Billyc]

I'm not suprised at all .

We have played 2 grand finalists from last year , a team more progressed than us and the side we played in our own weight division we beat .

We are playing pretty much the youngest and most inexperienced teams weekly . That alone leads to losses and a lot of them while the team grows .

Thats not taking into account the massive change to personal , coaching and everything else going on while you do a major list rebuild.

The only cure is time . More games , training and another pre season two or three to get everything honed in .
There will be more of Monday to come, good patches mixed in with chaos .

I think people wanted a rebuild but now its really here the actual reality is hard to stomach as its a hard few seasons ahead .

What was your pre-season prediction?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yes nobody contemplated this. Our first month has been worse than even the biggest critics predicted

Not sure exactly what you mean by no one contemplated this?

I find this an almost unfathomable comment, considering most people here thought the spoon was a very real possibility and some people had already declared we were tanking for Reid before a ball was bounced.

Our first month has had plenty of ups and downs, but people are quite clearly hung up on the scoreboard and scoreboard alone.

We’re the youngest side in the comp, playing without a key forward, and that’s identifiable in both the scoreboard outcomes and stats.

We were 18th for Centre Clearances, Total clearances, and 16th for stoppage clearances in 2022. We’ve played the two grand finalists and we’re 5th for centre clearances, 12th for total clearances and 14th for stoppage clearances. That’s improvement across the board where we wanted it the most.

Where we are breaking down is forward of centre with our cohesion and connection which is no great surprise as this is something the coaches spoke of even before Lewis went down.

In 2022 we 14th for inside 50’s but were 5th for goal efficiency and 3rd for Goal Accurracy. Without Lewis and Gunston we’re 18th for inside 50’s, Goal efficiency and Goal accuracy.

This is despite improving in other key metrics of ball use. We were 14th for kicks in 2022 and 13th for marks, while in 2023 were 4th for kicks and 4th for marks. So we’re winning clearances, we’re getting the ball in our hands and we’re possessing it, but we’re struggling to make much use of it.

We’re really not going as badly as the scoreboard has made out.

 

[TassieGrown]

The Hawks played SIX good quarters of footy between the VFL and that AFL, and 2 quarters that they will learn from.

All in all, it was a… arr… (cough)… a more than acceptable Monday.


That 3rd Qtr will stick in my memory for a long time... and I am sure it will be remembered more so by the players = a perfect teaching opportunity on how to stop a run-on from the opposition. It may be to go to defensive structures, or to forget defence and go all-out team-attack, to retain the ball, or to start a dust up.

Could you imagine, after the interest in the noodle card, we put up the following card 15 mins into that 3rd Qtr. The Geelong players would definitely be put off their game.

It's Thursday and i haven't moved on from the worst qtr i have watched for many a year, so hopefully the players are still burning from that un-Hawthorn like performance.

 

[Maybloomer]

I'm not suprised at all .

We have played 2 grand finalists from last year , a team more progressed than us and the side we played in our own weight division we beat .

We are playing pretty much the youngest and most inexperienced teams weekly . That alone leads to losses and a lot of them while the team grows .

Thats not taking into account the massive change to personal , coaching and everything else going on while you do a major list rebuild.

The only cure is time . More games , training and another pre season two or three to get everything honed in .
There will be more of Monday to come, good patches mixed in with chaos .

I think people wanted a rebuild but now its really here the actual reality is hard to stomach as its a hard few seasons ahead .

We started the season playing 2 sides at the top of the ladder, that’s a tough draw. (Shakes fist at AFL)
OK, Essendon were top after flogging us and then Sydney went top after flogging us but let’s not let common sense get in the way of a good whinge.

 

[ACTion Hawks]

If people were asked who we could least cover if injured at the start of the year, then Mitch Lewis would have had to be either outright top or top 2 (if you place Sicily above). We all hoped that Kosi could fill the role and he lost all confidence.

Realistically, we were always going backwards to start the year. We lost three very good players in Tom (doing bloody well at the Pies), JOM (not so strong at Freo) and Gunners (who chose to leave rather than being forced out). Most of us see the long term sense in this strategy, but it costs us in the short term. We are a weaker team now than we were at the end of last season, but will end up stronger for it when it matters (when we are contending again).

I am not wanting to be blasted out of the water all the time, but the main things I am looking for this year are:

1) Signs we have drafted quality (I think it is universal that Frenchie is; now want to see the others follow)
2) Working out the players we can rely on in the future from our current list (Nash looks good, Kosi not so)
3) Moments where we see our young players realise they belong
4) Getting games into the young brigade (doing this, although if I have one gripe I would like to see DGB getting games but not so close to the action and maybe being the main man at Box Hill is better for his long term development

This year was never going to be fun, and I still don't want the spoon, but it was never about this year. It is about being real contenders in a few years, rather than treading water and never contending. If we have to pay the price through painful watching hidings this year, then we pay it.. We only ever set up to win Premierships, not just compete.