Autopsy Round 7, 2022: St.Kilda v Port Adelaide

[SaintsSeptember]

Just wait until they have an AI entity umpiring the games....subjectivity will almost entirely be eliminated...there will be no grey areas no interpretation other than that which is measureably 'zero or one', so to speak!. No reading the game...no flow or capacity to let it go....well no more than would be pre programmed.

When we have rules that deal with "intent" ie , mind reading, your AI will blow its processes before you finish programming it.

 

[my name was taken]

The spinning the ball ritual looks like a takeaway from basketball players and freethrows, seen a million variations in the NBA from touching their face, moving the ball around the body several times and flicking the ball around and some other real weird ones. The difference is the ball is round! The ball ends up in the same way in the hand, also they don't have to drop it to shoot. Drop a round ball and it falls in the same orientation. But I think some coaches in the past have used this ritual methodologies and applied them here.

Can't say any of that for football, it's oval and if it drops in a different orientation, you are cooked, it shouldn't be a variable left to the final second of the routine. Even if it's only responsible for 25% of his misses, that is the difference between winning and losing.

That is my 2c, I'm not sure why you would leave the juggle in. I had a plumber in the fix some noisy valve issues in the house last month, he said we can't diagnose instantly which to replace but let's start with the obvious and easy ones to get to and work from there until it stops. Aka Something is wrong, let's do the simple things first

 

[BrutThough]

Agree with your points, and it follows on from my earlier point of what happens before delivery is irrelevant only if it doesn’t affect delivery.

You are correct because it appears the spinning is causing a poor ball drop (an easy mental fix), not every time, but more than enough of the time to get it fixed.

I love this page on Insta, and they’ve just released a piece on Max and Trac - talk about good timing.

If you watch King's routine, he holds the ball like that on purpose. It is not a mistake from spinning the ball.

 

[Saints TV]

The spinning the ball ritual looks like a takeaway from basketball players and freethrows, seen a million variations in the NBA from touching their face, moving the ball around the body several times and flicking the ball around and some other real weird ones. The difference is the ball is round! The ball ends up in the same way in the hand, also they don't have to drop it to shoot. Drop a round ball and it falls in the same orientation. But I think some coaches in the past have used this ritual methodologies and applied them here.

Can't say any of that for football, it's oval and if it drops in a different orientation, you are cooked, it shouldn't be a variable left to the final second of the routine. Even if it's only responsible for 25% of his misses, that is the difference between winning and losing.

That is my 2c, I'm not sure why you would leave the juggle in. I had a plumber in the fix some noisy valve issues in the house last month, he said we can't diagnose instantly which to replace but let's start with the obvious and easy ones to get to and work from there until it stops. Aka Something is wrong, let's do the simple things first

I went to a footy field yesterday and attempted a few shots while spinning the ball in the lead up to the kick. Didn't affect my kick a whole lot but it just felt uncomfortable. You want to feel in control taking those shots and spinning the ball to me, isn't under control. But everyone has a different routine I guess! I've always been a relatively accurate set shot and my routine is as basic as it gets.

 

[Saints TV]

The spinning the ball ritual looks like a takeaway from basketball players and freethrows, seen a million variations in the NBA from touching their face, moving the ball around the body several times and flicking the ball around and some other real weird ones. The difference is the ball is round! The ball ends up in the same way in the hand, also they don't have to drop it to shoot. Drop a round ball and it falls in the same orientation. But I think some coaches in the past have used this ritual methodologies and applied them here.

Can't say any of that for football, it's oval and if it drops in a different orientation, you are cooked, it shouldn't be a variable left to the final second of the routine. Even if it's only responsible for 25% of his misses, that is the difference between winning and losing.

That is my 2c, I'm not sure why you would leave the juggle in. I had a plumber in the fix some noisy valve issues in the house last month, he said we can't diagnose instantly which to replace but let's start with the obvious and easy ones to get to and work from there until it stops. Aka Something is wrong, let's do the simple things first

I went to a footy field yesterday and attempted a few shots while spinning the ball in the lead up to the kick. Didn't affect my kick a whole lot but it just felt uncomfortable. You want to feel in control taking those shots and spinning the ball to me, isn't under control. But everyone has a different routine I guess! I've always been a relatively accurate set shot and my routine is as basic as it gets.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

If you watch King's routine, he holds the ball like that on purpose. It is not a mistake from spinning the ball.

Well if he’s doing it on purpose there’s larger problems afoot.

 

[prophetic1]

Actually, Al would deliver the ultimate in subjective officiating, but since we'll all be dead by then viewership would be capped at 1.
AI is not robotics

So from a lighter perspective, AI with sentience unimaginable and there still will be as many melts on Big Footy and at the game as there ever was regarding umpiring!
Fortunately my subjective appreciation is highly attuned to bias....one eyed in fact.

Will any of it help the SAINTS...??? Might have never reported LONG and RYDER....I imagine the empirical data that AI will be able to crunch on that in a matter of seconds would shut the gate. Just the physics alone! Maybe! Not to mention just feeling it was wrong!

 

[bird_man]

Since round 11 last year King has kicked 45 goals 28 points

So approximately 62%

 

[my name was taken]

I went to a footy field yesterday and attempted a few shots while spinning the ball in the lead up to the kick. Didn't affect my kick a whole lot but it just felt uncomfortable. You want to feel in control taking those shots and spinning the ball to me, isn't under control. But everyone has a different routine I guess! I've always been a relatively accurate set shot and my routine is as basic as it gets.

Now drop it like you're 202cm

I do I agree, basic is the goal, I can still hear my father telling me K.I.S.S, keep it simple stupid...sometimes I think he just liked calling me stupid

 

[Saints TV]

Now drop it like you're 202cm

I do I agree, basic is the goal, I can still hear my father telling me K.I.S.S, keep it simple stupid...sometimes I think he just liked calling me stupid

Haha yeah look I'm a bit on the shorter side but ya catch my drift. Spinning or not, hope Kingy is up for a big one this week. He should be thriving at the opportunity of taking on the gun Melb defence and ripping it apart.

 

[prophetic1]

I went to a footy field yesterday and attempted a few shots while spinning the ball in the lead up to the kick. Didn't affect my kick a whole lot but it just felt uncomfortable. You want to feel in control taking those shots and spinning the ball to me, isn't under control. But everyone has a different routine I guess! I've always been a relatively accurate set shot and my routine is as basic as it gets.

I am of the opinion that you could proverbially stick it up your butt before you kick the ball and it wouldn't be that which prevents you kicking a goal. Although it could give you an awkward gait to b e sure! MAXY has kicked some glorious goals from angles from distance etc etc So clearly it works sometimes. I suggest there is a psychological aspect as has been stated....thus help ffrom a more cerebral mentor or counsel required!

In addition to this I often wonder, if I was to be chased by an angry pitbull around the oval just once and immediately asked to line up for goal would it be hugely different to my normal practice routine. The peripheral factors influencing the execution can be so complex. The human mind has a way of overriding these little pricks in the consciousness. Normally, ignore and over ride! Practice. Yes!......but it has to be mental IMO!
I suppose the anti ball spinners think the ball spinning is one more unnecessary complication.......maybe ...but deeper again imo!

 

[phantom13]

Since round 11 last year King has kicked 45 goals 28 points

So approximately 62%

In his last two weeks hes 3 goals 9 points.

We can all cherry pick stats.

Hes 79.69 for his career which isnt horrible but he could clearly be better plus he misses ALOT of easy ones and misses them badly.

Ultimately i dont think anyone is saying hes completely rooted but most of us (including alot of people with some very good experience in the matter) think the spinning the ball is just a pointless addition that serves no purpose other than to add another element that could go wrong.

 

[Saints TV]

I am of the opinion that you could proverbially stick it up your butt before you kick the ball and it wouldn't be that which prevents you kicking a goal. Although it could give you an awkward gait to b e sure! MAXY has kicked some glorious goals from angles from distance etc etc So clearly it works sometimes. I suggest there is a psychological aspect as has been stated....thus help ffrom a more cerebral mentor or counsel required!

In addition to this I often wonder, if I was to be chased by an angry pitbull around the oval just once and immediately asked to line up for goal would it be hugely different to my normal practice routine. The peripheral factors influencing the execution can be so complex. The human mind has a way of overriding these little pricks in the consciousness. Normally, ignore and over ride! Practice. Yes!......but it has to be mental IMO!
I suppose the anti ball spinners think the ball spinning is one more unnecessary complication.......maybe ...but deeper again imo!

Yeah that's why I run around the oval for about 5-10 mins before taking set shots, I like doing it under a bit of fatigue haha but agree, it is always 99% between the ears. Maxy will be right.

 

[bird_man]

In his last two weeks hes 3 goals 9 points.

We can all cherry pick stats.

Hes 79.69 for his career which isnt horrible but he could clearly be better plus he misses ALOT of easy ones and misses them badly.

Ultimately i dont think anyone is saying hes completely rooted but most of us (including alot of people with some very good experience in the matter) think the spinning the ball is just a pointless addition that serves no purpose other than to add another element that could go wrong.

Yes, anyone can cherry pick stats

What it shows though is that from the half way mark of last year there was clearly a massive improvement in Kings goal kicking.

So it's probably a bit early to start pushing the panic button just yet after 2 weeks of poor kicking.

If it continues for longer than 2 weeks than it becomes an issue

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Yes, anyone can cherry pick stats

What it shows though is that from the half way mark of last year there was clearly a massive improvement in Kings goal kicking.

So it's probably a bit early to start pushing the panic button just yet after 2 weeks of poor kicking.

If it continues for longer than 2 weeks than it becomes an issue

Yep. If he kicks 2.0 this week are we saying he’s completely fixed due to a 100% accuracy rate? Then the next week he kicks 1.3 and we’re melting again. What if he does the above with the exact same technique

 

[pebblesofsand]

Watch the video Dard Ball Get posted.

Him spinning the ball affects his ball drop which affects the point of contact.

And AGAIN if hes kicking well he can do what he likes but Max isnt kicking well.

I did - the video is meaningless.

It shows only part of Kings/Petracca's kicking process and does nothing to enable the analysis of the position of the ball at the actual point of the ball drop, it doesn't show the angle of the ball drop, it doesn't show the trajectory of their leg and certainly doesn't show enough for anyone to draw a meaningful conclusion on kicking style.

The only purpose it serves is to "confirm" the incorrect assumptions of the poster.

 

[phantom13]

I did - the video is meaningless.

It shows only part of Kings/Petracca's kicking process and does nothing to enable the analysis of the position of the ball at the actual point of the ball drop, it doesn't show the angle of the ball drop, it doesn't show the trajectory of their leg and certainly doesn't show enough for anyone to draw a meaningful conclusion on kicking style.

The only purpose it serves is to "confirm" the incorrect assumptions of the poster.

So you dont think that the way he holds the ball has any impact on the way he drops the ball and contacts with his foot...

You ever kicked a footy?

 

[phantom13]

Yes, anyone can cherry pick stats

What it shows though is that from the half way mark of last year there was clearly a massive improvement in Kings goal kicking.

So it's probably a bit early to start pushing the panic button just yet after 2 weeks of poor kicking.

If it continues for longer than 2 weeks than it becomes an issue

Ive been saying he shouldnt twirl the ball for a while.

His career average isnt great and i actually think he could be a brilliant kick for goal.

Put it this way, what do you think he would lose if he got rid of the ball twirling? Cause i cant think of anything aside from variation in how he holds the ball right before the most important kicks in footy.

 

[bird_man]

His career average isnt great and i actually think he could be a brilliant kick for goal.

Put it this way, what do you think he would lose if he got rid of the ball twirling? Cause i cant think of anything aside from variation in how he holds the ball right before the most important kicks in footy.

I actually never even mentioned anything about ball twirling in my post nor did I quote you, but you seem to think my post was a shot at your opinion?

My post was just of his stats over the last 18 games

I'm happy to back in the club with this one though as it looks like they have managed to improve his kicking over the last 18 or so weeks which is a good sample size.

The start of that sample size was actually right around the the time everyone (including Lloyd) wanted to help Max and the club decided to keep it in house to work on his goal kicking

If they think he needs to stop twirling the ball then go for it. If they think he's best doing what feels comfortable because it's worked well until 2 weeks ago then I'm happy with that.

I don't have a strong opinion either way but the stats are definitely heading in the right direction (up until 10 days ago)

 

[phantom13]

I actually never even mentioned anything about ball twirling in my post nor did I quote you, but you seem to think my post was a shot at your opinion?

My post was just of his stats over the last 18 games

I'm happy to back in the club with this one though as it looks like they have managed to improve his kicking over the last 18 or so weeks which is a good sample size.

The start of that sample size was actually right around the the time everyone (including Lloyd) wanted to help Max and the club decided to keep it in house to work on his goal kicking

If they think he needs to stop twirling the ball then go for it. If they think he's best doing what feels comfortable because it's worked well until 2 weeks ago then I'm happy with that.

I don't have a strong opinion either way but the stats are definitely heading in the right direction (up until 10 days ago)

The whole convo about max has been about his balk twirling so it’s hardly a leap to think that’s what you’re talking about.

You wanna settle for a mediocre goal kicking record instead of trying to tweak one completely useless element of the routine that’s fine. I’d suggest a guy at Max’s level might wanna aspire to somethibg loftier

 

[phantom13]

Also the guy has played 45 games but you want to ignore the first 25 and the last 2 because you found an 18 week period where he’s been a bit above average… we joked about anyone being able to Cherry oick stats but seriously.

 

[bird_man]

The whole convo about max has been about his balk twirling so it’s hardly a leap to think that’s what you’re talking about.

You wanna settle for a mediocre goal kicking record instead of trying to tweak one completely useless element of the routine that’s fine. I’d suggest a guy at Max’s level might wanna aspire to somethibg loftier

Your whole conversation was probably around ball twirling.

Believe it or not there are plenty of other posters on here and if you read through the thread you will see plenty of discussion around Max King, including posts suggesting he could play at Sandy, posts around Matthew Lloyd etc

My post was pointing out how much he has improved his goal kicking over almost a seasons worth of games

Also the guy has played 45 games but you want to ignore the first 25 and the last 2 because you found an 18 week period where he’s been a bit above average… we joked about anyone being able to Cherry oick stats but seriously.

Actually no, I did not ignore the last 2 games in my stats.

My stats were from round 11 last year and included the last two weeks. I never once said they weren't included.

So a huge improvement from mid way through last year to now. That's almost the second half his career and almost a full season of kicking at 62%

If I'd have taken those games I'm guessing it would be up around 70% bit I didn't

I think that's a significant enough time to suggest he's improved in that area

 

[George]

Yes, anyone can cherry pick stats

What it shows though is that from the half way mark of last year there was clearly a massive improvement in Kings goal kicking.

So it's probably a bit early to start pushing the panic button just yet after 2 weeks of poor kicking.

If it continues for longer than 2 weeks than it becomes an issue

Would take data from Round 11 last year before I took data from the last two weeks. Not sure how it's comparable, obviously the bigger the sample size the more reliable the data.

 

[StFly]

I'm guessing those 4 stick looking things in the diagram are the posts, and 17.4 is relevant to kick-ins. But l was wrong and the zone is 10m so technically correct and still s**t.
I actually feel sorry for umpires now days.

Yeah, teaches me to go to first instance of remembering the doc, was actually in 20.

Two takeaways though;

1. Behind the ball carrier is only 5m, 10m is the sides for extrication from 20.2.
2. Point b indicates players must make endeavour to vacate if encroaching.

I'm in group that introduction of stand has mooted the 10m in at least 50% of that zone, since you've then either got your back to the play or already extricated by the point of actual disposal in said zone. Unless your Dougs I suppose, in which case you'd need about 4 hours.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

I did - the video is meaningless.

It shows only part of Kings/Petracca's kicking process and does nothing to enable the analysis of the position of the ball at the actual point of the ball drop, it doesn't show the angle of the ball drop, it doesn't show the trajectory of their leg and certainly doesn't show enough for anyone to draw a meaningful conclusion on kicking style.

The only purpose it serves is to "confirm" the incorrect assumptions of the poster.

You are correct it doesn’t show the middle aspects of the kicking motion, however you are incorrect in stating it doesn’t analyse the beginning of the ball drop.
His hand is incorrectly placed for a reliable ball drop, and you are able to draw a meaningful conclusion from the fact the campaigner missed from 17m out directly in front.

Both sides of the argument have merit, however it’s his inconsistency from mental application which needs addressing was my point.