Sally Rugg vs Monique Ryan

[Big Papa Ted]

Yeah I'm hanging up my boots for this one. Aristotle Pickett doesn't answer questions when pressed (for example in the last 10 posts he was explicitly asked where he draws the line on employer conduct being excusable if it's in the name of climate change, he just flat out ignored it), even when those questions are repeatedly asked. He's just ranting about coal mining, climate change and being generally unreasonable.

I'm out.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

What if someone can't find another job after losing their job in coal mining? What if a community loses most of its economic activity after a coal mine shuts down, and the demand for other jobs falls as a result, putting them in danger? These are valid concerns, and hand-waving them away as not being worthy of consideration are a major reason why people and communities cling to coal so hard - they fear they will be left behind afterwards, and aren't being assured that they will be okay.

This is why I want a just transition for coal workers and investment in coal mining communities, so that they know economic activity will continue even after we make the necessary move to shut down the mines.


It's called acknowledging other people's concerns. Is that something you do, or are you only concerned with your own affairs and not those of others?


All of them? Every single one? And what about communities that depend on the demand for services from nearby coal mines?


Do you think that attitude makes political change easier or harder to achieve?

They were valid concerns for the last 40 years now look where we are. It's a misleading ruse.
Acknowledging a small group of people's concerns who are holding the rest of the world to ransom. No , i do not give a s**t for coal miners, they can re-train or move. I'd rather have a liveable planet for future peoples.
Like I said ,I don't care for a minute section of the world's population who spread coal propaganda that they're gonna starve when the world is in a climate catastrophe.

 

[nobbyiscool]

No one is gonna starve because a coal mine is closed. I can't believe you are going with that zealousargument.
Why such love for coal miners? This is just propaganda from the coal lobby mate. Coal miners have transferrable skills just like asbestos miners and uranium miners.
Not that I give 2 shits about coal miners, they are all a-holes to me.

It read to me that the judge was only questioning Rugg's claim that they could work together.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Yeah I'm hanging up my boots for this one. Aristotle Pickett doesn't answer questions when pressed (for example in the last 10 posts he was explicitly asked where he draws the line on employer conduct being excusable if it's in the name of climate change, he just flat out ignored it), even when those questions are repeatedly asked. He's just ranting about coal mining, climate change and being generally unreasonable.

I'm out.

I draw the line on legitimate bullying and sexual harrassment which is different to a clash of egos.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

They were valid concerns for the last 40 years now look where we are. It's a misleading ruse.
Acknowledging a small group of people's concerns who are holding the rest of the world to ransom. No , i do not give a s**t for coal miners, they can re-train or move. I'd rather have a liveable planet for future peoples.
Like I said ,I don't care for a minute section of the world's population who spread coal propaganda that they're gonna starve when the world is in a climate catastrophe.

Alright, glad we've clarified you don't give a toss about anyone except yourself and your own interests.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Alright, glad we've clarified you don't give a toss about anyone except yourself and your own interests.

No incorrect. I give a s**t about manufacturing workers losing jobs, renewable energy workers losing jobs, the working poor, those living under the poverty line, health workers and other underpaid hard working people.
If you want to make coal workers more important people than them , that's up to you.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

 

[sataris]

I'll back her as a trustworthy person,

Neurosurgeons are direct and demand attention to detail by the nature of their job.

People should have respect for people in alturistic professions who aren't valued in modern capitalist society.

She's a neurologist and researcher, how many of those are bad character?

There are far worse MPs than her and you know it.

I have no idea where you got the idea that being a medical professional means anything other than being a medical professional.

If you think that being paid more than $100,000/yr is 'unvalued' in a modern capitalist society, than I really don't know where to begin, I'd suggest grounding yourself in reality would be a good start.

As to there being 'far worse' MP's is irrelevant.

I don't applaud her for her stance on climate change, because it should be the default stance for all decent people.

But for *s sake, can we please stop elevating/treating politicians as being somehow virtuous, trustworthy and honorable?

There are none of those in any parliament, anywhere in the world, at any point in human history.

 

[Crankyhawk]

That's interesting input.

So having worked in a quasi-managerial role in a public hospital, she would've at least had an awareness of EBAs and the existence of performance management policies wouldn't she?

Performance management yes.
EBA probably less so in that we give that to HR department (in terms of calculating and paying entitlements) sometimes it is department head advocating to hospital executives to clarify entitlements eg our head had to negotiate with executive to confirm the crisis rate when other consultants call in sick (to stop previously ad hoc terms)

 

[Crankyhawk]

Not necessarily, she would have been given rigid structures from above to guide all decisions.

For performance management she would be involved heavily with her medical staff (would use a structured tool provided by organisation) though maybe the rch centre of excellence doesn’t have performance issues ()

 

[Crankyhawk]

Sounds like a nightmare for Ryan the way Rugg was carrying on.

'High-performing staff often regard themselves as smarter or more talented than their supervisors. Seeing themselves as vital to their organisation, they may be reluctant to take directions, follow rules or do tasks they regard as menial. Believing they are too important to fire, they may become insubordinate.'

Monique Ryan, Sally Rugg and the star employee syndrome

One of any leader’s toughest jobs is managing an employee who believes, often with justification, that they are more skilled than their boss.

www.afr.com

Oh crap. That describes me (in the rugg role )

Edit to clarify that crap isn’t referring to your point being crap more that I am seeing myself in the described behaviour

 

[Gralin]

OMG a MFW poll they're pissed Rugg was trying to get a Royal Commission into Murdoch going, they grift off being the people that will bring Murdoch down

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I have no idea where you got the idea that being a medical professional means anything other than being a medical professional.

If you think that being paid more than $100,000/yr is 'unvalued' in a modern capitalist society, than I really don't know where to begin, I'd suggest grounding yourself in reality would be a good start.

As to there being 'far worse' MP's is irrelevant.

I don't applaud her for her stance on climate change, because it should be the default stance for all decent people.

But for *s sake, can we please stop elevating/treating politicians as being somehow virtuous, trustworthy and honorable?

There are none of those in any parliament, anywhere in the world, at any point in human history.

Rubbish! Make sure the doctor doesn't pick pocket you next time you go.
If you look at Ryan's research history, it's outstanding on an international level.
FYI Rugg collected about $180,000 pa , aroumd the same as a doctor.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Oh crap. That describes me (in the rugg role )

Edit to clarify that crap isn’t referring to your point being crap more that I am seeing myself in the described behaviour

Become your own boss.

 

[Gralin]

Rubbish! Make sure the doctor doesn't pick pocket you next time you go.

Being a doctor doesn't automatically make you a good person.
Plenty of doctors have been bad people.

If you look at Ryan's research history, it's outstanding on an international level.

So ******* what. She's a politician now, she's not working on health, she's an independent who you are at pains to point out wants action on climate change.
What are her credentials in that space?

Also wanting action/saying you want action on climate change also doesn't automatically make you a good person.

FYI Rugg collected about $180,000 pa , aroumd the same as a doctor.

You've got a real issue about wages don't you.
Ruggs base was $136k, if you're adding in the $30k for doing extra hours and super then yeah her package comes out around $180k but Ruggs not in the top tax bracket.
Ryan at a bare minimum excluding allowances as a politician is on $217k and is in the top tax bracket.
Kind of useless information when we're talking about exploitation though.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

OMG a MFW poll they're pissed Rugg was trying to get a Royal Commission into Murdoch going, they grift off being the people that will bring Murdoch down

Seems a fair poll. We all love Rugg's anti-Murdoch efforts. She wasn't suited to a chief of staff job, she needs to be her own boss.
She could have easily run for the Greens but didn't.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Being a doctor doesn't automatically make you a good person.
Plenty of doctors have been bad people.

So ******* what. She's a politician now, she's not working on health, she's an independent who you are at pains to point out wants action on climate change.
What are her credentials in that space?

Also wanting action/saying you want action on climate change also doesn't automatically make you a good person.

You've got a real issue about wages don't you.
Ruggs base was $136k, if you're adding in the $30k for doing extra hours and super then yeah her package comes out around $180k but Ruggs not in the top tax bracket.
Ryan at a bare minimum excluding allowances as a politician is on $217k and is in the top tax bracket.
Kind of useless information when we're talking about exploitation though.

I'm finding it hard to agree with your view that Ryan is a bad person and that Rugg is a good person.
I think they're both good people but on this matter Rugg is out of line to a degree.
She's just harming the Teal brand for personal reasons imo.

 

[Gralin]

I'm finding it hard to agree with your view that Ryan is a bad person and that Rugg is a good person.

I've never said that. I've said i don't agree with your reasoning for Ryan good and Rugg bad.

I've also said I'm pro worker. Pro worker means I'm again wage theft.

"Reasonable overtime" is a massive con to exploit workers and steal wages.

They'd pay overtime if they weren't trying to steal wages. Lump sum payments for reasonable hours are designed to exploit workers.

It's a wide spread issue within many industries including government and I'm supportive of someone fighting against it.

Ryan's definition of reasonable is not mine, in this case I'm siding with the worker over the boss.

It's my default position btw, I've seen nothing so far that makes me think otherwise.

What I've said is Ryan's actions in this case to me are not good, she's in a position of power and she's expecting 7 day a week support from her staff which to me is never on.

I think they're both good people but on this matter Rugg is out of line to a degree.

Because she wants to be fairly compensated and allowed to have a personal life?

She's just harming the Teal brand for personal reasons imo.

Good.
People above politics my guy

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I've never said that. I've said i don't agree with your reasoning for Ryan good and Rugg bad.

I've also said I'm pro worker. Pro worker means I'm again wage theft.

"Reasonable overtime" is a massive con to exploit workers and steal wages.

They'd pay overtime if they weren't trying to steal wages. Lump sum payments for reasonable hours are designed to exploit workers.

It's a wide spread issue within many industries including government and I'm supportive of someone fighting against it.

Ryan's definition of reasonable is not mine, in this case I'm siding with the worker over the boss.

It's my default position btw, I've seen nothing so far that makes me think otherwise.

What I've said is Ryan's actions in this case to me are not good, she's in a position of power and she's expecting 7 day a week support from her staff which to me is never on.


Because she wants to be fairly compensated and allowed to have a personal life?

Good.
People above politics my guy

Would you agree that Rugg wasn't suited to the role and that she didn't enjoy the menial tasks and lack of power to run things her way?
And don't you think that it's unfortunate that this long lasting test case has been put on an under resourced independant ,who generally has good policy, and that this test case detracts from her ability to advocate her policy positions?

 

[Gralin]

Would you agree that Rugg wasn't suited to the role and that she didn't enjoy the menial tasks and lack of power to run things her way?

No

And don't you think that it's unfortunate that this long lasting test case has been put on an under resourced independant ,who generally has good policy, and that this test case detracts from her ability to advocate her policy positions?

No

 

[Gethelred]

I would argue that the entire purpose of the Teal party was to dislodge just enough Lib seats to turn an election and those voters feeling their protest vote was burned up will go back to voting how they were prior.

I think Ryan is looking down the same barrel as Steggall in that the alternative plan to the ALP (which neither is voting for) doesn't have to have as much punch when the ALP is in power. A heap of these independent voters are not voting red or green and deep down they feel their side lost. Everything bad politically since is a reminder.

And not that I think it's all that effective or important, but rusted on voters don't need their side to be all that impressive if the opposition team is in power and things aren't going great.

Regarding dangerous working hours, this is a problem for all young people seeking to make their way. The expectation from the management level is that they put in nearly unlimited extra hours for no extra pay to demonstrate their value, then those who do are rewarded. It's quite toxic but it does weed out those who aren't capable of it, meanwhile the organisation they work for benefits immensely.

It's what I did, I was paid very well for it, I was later looked after by the business but I would go for runs at night in the rain so I could cry.

Given the degree to which the state and federal libs seem intent on chasing off the moderates, why are you treating the Teals as a protest vote and not a schism of the corporate right in Australia?

 

[Gethelred]

May as well just round up all the people who work in areas you don't like and shoot them and their families to solve the issue then.

 

[Kwality]

That's interesting input.

So having worked in a quasi-managerial role in a public hospital, she would've at least had an awareness of EBAs and the existence of performance management policies wouldn't she?

What is a quasi management role as described here ?

 

[Kwality]

Given the degree to which the state and federal libs seem intent on chasing off the moderates, why are you treating the Teals as a protest vote and not a schism of the corporate right in Australia?

Equally why have you ignored the ALP connection to the Teals e.g Ryans omission of her ALP membership.

 

[Gethelred]

Equally why have you ignored the ALP connection to the Teals e.g Ryans omission of her ALP membership.

Given that that was my genuine first post on the Teals - other than to mention their existence - I struggle to see the point you think you're responding to, let alone the one you think you're making.

There's also the fact that I was genuinely interested in her opinion, as opposed to my own. You know, because I already know my own opinion on the question I asked Taylor.