Send them back now...

[brampta]

Refugees vs Asylum Seekers

I think this debate is far too complex and controversial ...

I think its important to distinguish between refugees and asylum seekers.

Can we all agree that the people currently being processed in detention centres have made it difficult for themselves by destroying their paperwork?

And in all that has been said so far on this board , not one person has offered a solution to the problem. How do we erradicate this problem?

Australia is not the only country involved. The problem lies with countries such as Indonesia who's lax immigration monitoring allows potential illegal immigrants to wait in Indonesia for extended periods until boats become available. Australia and Indonesia have yet to build up a strong enough working relationship for stemming the flows from Indonesia, and arresting suspected people smugglers in Indonesia.

Maybe immigration services in the countries where illegal migrants are originating from need to be better so that they receive better information. Like telling them to hang on to their paperwork and they have a better chance of being released from detention within a month of arriving in Australia. I forget which program I was watching but I think they stated that the majority or refugees spend between 2-4 weeks in detention before being released. Can anyone verify this at all?

I don't think its fair to be shooting down people for their opinion over this matter because feelings of insecurity are natural and September 11 proved that sometimes those feelings are justified. If you are going to criticise someone's point of view at least offer a suggestion for a solution. (And then forward it to Canberra )

 

[blues^rock]

when u think about it the english were boat people when they came to australia thge first time... althouigh they didn;t really have a refugee status they came into the land unwelcomed, unwanted and they were pretty much illeagal although teh aboriginies had not laws to prevent them from entering the comuntry it was their land and the english were not granted permission to enter...
therefore everything that i shappening is one big mess and we r all contradicting ourselves in one way or another...it's hard to say keep them and even harder to say send them back... i dunno what to do all i know is it's not right to keep them locked up in woomera like prisoners

 

[M29]

Originally posted by vanders
Rioting at the Woomera detention centre...three nights in a row, what a bunch of ungrateful bastards!
I say send them home NOW

Are you a young liberal?

 

[Dr AlfAndrews]

Re: Re: Send them back now...

Originally posted by M29


Are you [i.e. Vanders] a young liberal?

And the really hilarious things is that this was the same person who offered to co-host my radio programme on ... wait for it ... 3CR.

Can you imagine someone with views like that on 3CR?

By the way, Vanders. The offer for air-play still holds ... as long as you don't mind your songs being played in between pro-refugee community announcements and other left-wing material.

We eat the likes of you for breakfast at 3CR, Vanders. The last young liberal who walked into our studio got turned into a dart-board. The one before had his small intestine cut-edited until we'd removed all the crap and we turned him into a promo cart for the Siberian Lesbian Hour.

Of course ... if you still want to co-host my programme, let me know.

 

[vanders]

*pulls on bulletproof vest, waiting to be shot for not having the same view as most of ya*

So by looking out for the best interests of this country, and the people in it, I'm classified as a, and i quote, "a bigoted, racist, red-necked, John Howard supporter" unquote????

Why should a bunch of criminals, and im only talking about those of which were involved in the riot, be allowed into this country?
They've shown more than once that they are willing to break the rules to get what the want, and surely they are not the kind of people we would like in this country.

 

[RogerC]

It is an incredibly complex issue, and it opens up all the skeletons in our closet (we are intruders ourselves after all), but what price do you put on humanity? It seems a bit stupid to stick a bunch of refugees into a place like Woomera indefinitely, and expect them to behave like citizens.

I'd say the best post on this thread so far has come from campbell, who at least has seen the place first hand. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but it speaks from experience, which is what a lot of us don't have.

How can sit in our comfortable homes, in orderly societies, with all the priviledges this country offers us, and presume to know what to do with these people, who have endured hardships we'll never comprehend, much less experience?

Erring on the side of compassion isn't a bad thing. The riots came about as a result of anger and frustration (I can't see any other reason for such destructive behaviour). Shouldn't we be attempting to get to the root of this anger and frustration, to try to find some way to avoid it in the future?

Right now we don't let in a whole lot of refugees. We could cope with a whole lot more. But from now on what we should be doing, instead of all this finger pointing and tut-tutting, is putting some sort of plan in place to deal with refugees in the future. Try to graft an agreement with Indonesia. Try to work with the UN to push for political stability in the countries these guys are fleeing.

All this talk of queue jumping and sending them home is stupid. Refugees have to go somewhere, and we have no reason not to take on some of them. The more there are in the world the more we should take, IMHO. But hell, compassion in is very short supply in this country to judge by the recent election and attitudes since.

And if we're going to talk about criminals, it's not as if Anglo-Saxon Australia is immune from them. From Tampa-videos to phone cards, we have our share.

 

[Olmy]

Originally posted by campbell

I have worked at Woomera, in the Mental health field.
I know exactly what happens .

That's funny. I know of 4 or 5 other, previous characters on BigFooty and bl.com who have had very, very similar writing styles to yours, who have also claimed, amongst other things, to have travelled in outer-space, camped in Siberia, worked on the Brisbane-Fitzroy merger, know the inner workings of the AFL and Brisbane Lions, and the short-comings of the Fitzroy FC and its supporters, etc. etc. etc.

 

[campbell]

Yes I am new here. Nice to meet everyone.
I agree it is an extremely complex issue. The point I was trying to bring across was that the conditions under which these people are housed is very good.We are not, as a society mistreating these people.Their standard of living whilst in Woomera or Port Headland or where ever, is very good.
What I think upsets a lot of people is that we all have to live in a lawful society, if one breaks the rules we are dealt with.They see this issue as a double standards.Some people break our laws, for whatever reasons, and are still proccessed.Then whilst awaiting a final decision, which has been prolonged by their lack of proof of identity, some of these people turn to acts of criminal behaviour. This tends to frustrate law abiding australian citizens. Its human nature.Also some people may feel anguish or dispair that a loved one of theirs or even theirselves can not afford the perceived luxuries that is seen to be given to this group of people. I have heard said, I wish I had a pool table, my isp wont let me on all day, can i have the choice of 4 for lunch. etc etc.
I did hear yesterday that there are 10 people at Woomera at the moment with direct links to terrorist organisations. This is only going to cause more concerns in the wider community about the whole illegant immigrant issue.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Its not a complex issue - its a simple clear-cut issue.

You are either of the opinion that immigration is good or it is bad.

Lets drop all the distractions, all the semantic and complex arguemnents about what is a refugee, where is the queue, are people smugglers criominals, is manadatory detention a good thing, are the conditions in the camps good enough etc etc.

These are all massive distractions from the central point - which is a simple clear cut choice.

Either you think immigration is good or you think immigration is bad.

Don't waste your time thinking about this current situation in any other way - this is just the latest chapter in an on-going and enduring theme of Australian history and national life.

Immigration vs Exclusion - its as simple as that.

Roughly half of us believe that immigration is bad - the other half us belive immigration is good.

Some of those that believe immigration is bad have racist reasons for thinking that way - not all of them, but we must call a spade a spade here - racism plays a big part on shaping the way
some people approach this question.

Some people just don't like being with others who look different, pray different, smell different, eat different, live different.

I am from the other half of the community that only sees good coming from immigration - again I must just quickly repeat my viewpoint.

It doesn't matter who they are, where they came from, how they got here, what they used to do before they got here, what colour they are, what god they worship, what documentation they carry, how many relatives they have, who they are going to vote for


... absolutely

none of this matters one little bit - I couldn't care.

Let them in, let them all in, let as many in as want to come here - the is room for everybody in this great country of ours.

Every migrant enriches us, every migrant makes us more prosperous, every migrant makes Austrlia a better country, every migrant takes us one more step away from our exclusionist, colonial and racist past.

We are after all a migrant country - long may we remain so !

cheers

 

[Darky]

Re: Re: Re: Send them back now...

Originally posted by Dr AlfAndrews


And the really hilarious things is that this was the same person who offered to co-host my radio programme on ... wait for it ... 3CR.

Can you imagine someone with views like that on 3CR?

By the way, Vanders. The offer for air-play still holds ... as long as you don't mind your songs being played in between pro-refugee community announcements and other left-wing material.

We eat the likes of you for breakfast at 3CR, Vanders. The last young liberal who walked into our studio got turned into a dart-board. The one before had his small intestine cut-edited until we'd removed all the crap and we turned him into a promo cart for the Siberian Lesbian Hour.

Of course ... if you still want to co-host my programme, let me know.

So, you're implying if people are invited to air their opinions on community radio, they are expected to be left-wing?

That lines up very well with the eternal left-wing credo of "everybody's entitled to freedom of speech, as long as you agree with us".

 

[Asgardian]

Originally posted by Olmy
who have also claimed, amongst other things, to have travelled in outer-space,

All of us have, after all, we are all Martians

AREN'T WE?

 

[Cyclops]

BS topic for a footy board, even in the off-season. Let 'em in if they can kick both feet and agree to play (or at least barrack) for the Pies.

 

[Mcchawk]

Gee Vanders I'd be afraid of appearing on Dr Alf Andrews 3CR radio programme and being eaten for breakfast and used as a dartboard. No doubt the young liberal in question would've been able to say their point of view? Or is if the good Doctor just copying another Melbourne talkback radio host?The fear of it all

 

[Jars458]

Originally posted by Darky


So, you're implying if people are invited to air their opinions on community radio, they are expected to be left-wing?

That lines up very well with the eternal left-wing credo of "everybody's entitled to freedom of speech, as long as you agree with us".

That's the right wing credo of free speech actually

See what's happening in the US right now!

free speech should be unfettered free speech.

 

[Dr AlfAndrews]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Send them back now...

Originally posted by Darky


So, you're implying if people are invited to air their opinions on community radio, they are expected to be left-wing?

That lines up very well with the eternal left-wing credo of "everybody's entitled to freedom of speech, as long as you agree with us".

Hey, frigface. If you want to talk right wing crap on air ring up 3AW talkback. You'll have it all to yourself, because they don't allow left wing callers. In fact none of the commercial media outlets express left wing thoughts. That's why 3CR exists.

Why should 3CR let bigoted scum like you express your opinions?

You've got the rest of the media on your side ... 3CR is the only d*ckwipe-free zone in the entire Melbourne mass media.

It belongs to us. So, basically, heck off.

[Bluey] Alf, get a grip. You sound like a childish loony. [/Bluey]

 

[maythecatbewifu]

I say send them home NOW

ME TOO the little barstards... what do they expect to be able to come here iligaly and go on with there lifes as if nothing happened

 

[Pessimistic]

TI hear they deported the chick from the "cougar" advert. Now that's real injustice.

And today in melbourne I saw a woman who was a spitting image of Barbie. If you are reading this, thanks for the experience.

 

[Darky]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Send them back now...

Originally posted by Dr AlfAndrews


Hey, frigface. If you want to talk right wing crap on air ring up 3AW talkback. You'll have it all to yourself, because they don't allow left wing callers. In fact none of the commercial media outlets express left wing thoughts. That's why 3CR exists.

Why should 3CR let bigoted scum like you express your opinions?

You've got the rest of the media on your side ... 3CR is the only d*ckwipe-free zone in the entire Melbourne mass media.

It belongs to us. So, basically, heck off.

First of all, I did not offer an opinion on the issue at hand, so where do you get off calling me bigoted scum?

Secondly, once again you appear to be incapable of answering posts you disagree with, without becoming abusive.

Thirdly, you might be a Doctor of some sort, but that doesn't excuse you for behaving like an abusive twat. So basically, YOU sir, can heck off.

 

[blurton]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Send them back now...

Originally posted by Dr AlfAndrews


Hey, frigface. If you want to talk right wing crap on air ring up 3AW talkback. You'll have it all to yourself, because they don't allow left wing callers. In fact none of the commercial media outlets express left wing thoughts. That's why 3CR exists.

Why should 3CR let bigoted scum like you express your opinions?

You've got the rest of the media on your side ... 3CR is the only d*ckwipe-free zone in the entire Melbourne mass media.

It belongs to us. So, basically, heck off.

Geez, a bit over the top don't you think? Settle down Doc, it's the season to be merry isn't it ?

 

[FunkyBlue]

A question for the educated .........

Recently a friend of mine married an American lady who subsequently moved here to Australia. Part of the "deal" with her moving here was she was not allowed to apply for Social Security Benefits and was not allowed to enter the work force for the 12 months of her migrating to Australia.

When people claim "refuge status", are similar restrictions placed on them or are they automatically allowed to claim Social Security Benefits and allowed to seek employment immediately?

 

[sandeano]

Welly, welly well then...

So little moral high ground, so many clamouring for it.

Ladies and gentlemen, I suggest a touch of rational tinking is due on this issue and to begin throwing terms such as "racist" and "redneck" around so freely turns the potential for an intelligent debate into a nonsense in quick time.

Firstly, for what it is worth, allow me to offer my tuppence's worth....the way I have always looked at life is that where we are born and the circumstances we are born into are just a matter of pure pot luck. ANY of us sould have been born a starving child in Ethiopia, mutilated as an infant in Rwanda or persecuted for no fault of our own in Afghanistan (for three examles only) as (great) luck would have it, most of us were lucky to have been born in Australia, and for that we should be eternally grateful. Part of that gratitute should entail realising how relatively fortunate our situation is and knowing that there but the grace of God (or whatever) go I. For that reason we should welcome anybody and (virtually) everybody with a warm welcome, for the law of averages says that we could well have been born in far more desperate circumstances than we currnetly are in.

Honestly...and please, think about this for a second, if we have the time and the money to spend many minutes of the day coming in here and other such sites to parttle on about the trivialities of the world of AFL then surely our lives must be somewaht deadent when compared to theose poor souls with nothing to eat or drink, suffering from HIV and other diseases or in constant fear for the lives of themselves and their loved ones from war and religious persecution. I am certain that tehre are some folks here whose biggest worry of the day is whether the post the made (for example) about Tony Lockett's jumper will recieve the feedback they hope.

So for the sake of our own consciences, let any poor soul determined enough to come here by various dangerous means into our country. I know much of our land is arid, but nonetheless we have plenty of room available and the least we can do is share it. Along the way our lives and our society will be enriched by the offer. And for those that are whining about their tax dollars - if one wants to look at this matter in the cold heart light of purely financial terms then it has been proven that immigration results in benefits to the economy. Even if they are receiving benefits - that money does not just dissapear, they people ahve to eat, and purchase goods and services so it aids business and, in turn, the greater economy. So in the end everybody wins. So really, I see no reason to curtail immigration.

Now I ma not blinkered enough to believe that every person in the camps are deserving of our hospitality. No, a certain number are undesirable and the proper checks are procedures must take place to ensure that they are weeded out. However I am sure that if immediate, temporay visas were given then those few problems could still be resolved. Nor do I support the actions of arson and riots, but I do understand that when desperate people are placed in such situatuions then irrational behaviour is bound to be expected. Boredom, uncertianty and worry are a lethal combination. As someone said earlier - erring on the side of compassion is the most decent of things to do and even if the ocasional thing goes astray then at least we can sleep soundly at night at least knowing we tried.

Okay, now that I have made that clear I wish to address a couple of issues.

Firstly, I am sick of the term "redneck". In its truest sense it refers to those folk that toil in the open air for a liveing (hnce the sunburn on the neck). Today it is a blanket term covering anyone witha a concervative viewpoint that happens to be blue of collar. Let's stop that shall we and leave class out of the game .

Secondly, although I disagree with those calling for the refugees to be sent home, I can do so without referring to them as racists. I honestly think here we have a ase of xenophobia, rather than racism, for it is FEAR of the foreigners, rathwer than a hatred than is behind this argument...and yes, there is a difference, a HUGE difference. One is ignorance, the other is irrational emotion.

As for the good Dr. Andrews, I must make him aware than the boat people have received more than a fair amount of positive support from the likes of 3AW's Steve Price and 3AK's Derryn Hinch (much to the chagrin of many of their listeners) so let's please not try and forge a myth that the AM band has only 3CR as an oasis of deceny in a desert of fascism.

And finally, I have never voted for John Howard in my life and I never wil for he is a bland, mean little man. But he is what he is and we all know that, so I am not disappointed with his stand on this matter, as we all should have expected it. Cats will drink cream, won't they?

However it was the lily-livered populist approach of the Labour party that disgusted me on this issue. I mean hey, if you are going to lose an election at least do so with your dignity intact. it was their actions that made me furious...so let us not be so quick to speak ill of "John Howard's middle Australia" for the only real alternative was not one at all.

 

[Mcchawk]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Send them back now...

Originally posted by Dr AlfAndrews


Hey, frigface. If you want to talk right wing crap on air ring up 3AW talkback. You'll have it all to yourself, because they don't allow left wing callers. In fact none of the commercial media outlets express left wing thoughts. That's why 3CR exists.

Why should 3CR let bigoted scum like you express your opinions?

You've got the rest of the media on your side ... 3CR is the only d*ckwipe-free zone in the entire Melbourne mass media.

It belongs to us. So, basically, heck off.

Great bedside manner Doctor

 

[Dr AlfAndrews]

Re: Welly, welly well then...

Originally posted by sandeano
... However it was the lily-livered populist approach of the Labour party that disgusted me on this issue. I mean hey, if you are going to lose an election at least do so with your dignity intact ...

Very true.

In fact the Labor Party are no longer the opposition as far as I'm concerned. They are a minority faction within the ruling Liberal-National-Labor coalition.

The Leader of The Opposition is Bob Brown. The Greens and other left wing parties are the only real "opposition" any more. The rest are more interested in power than principle.

 

[Dr AlfAndrews]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Send them back now...

Originally posted by Darky


First of all, I did not offer an opinion on the issue at hand, so where do you get off calling me bigoted scum?

Secondly, once again you appear to be incapable of answering posts you disagree with, without becoming abusive.

Thirdly, you might be a Doctor of some sort, but that doesn't excuse you for behaving like an abusive twat. So basically, YOU sir, can heck off.

This coming from someone whose signature is "go and get stuffed".

I take people as I find them. If you act like a turd I'll treat you like one. I'm quite capable of disagreeing with someone in a civilised way ... but I'm only civil to people I respect.

[Bluey] Civility is not something you owe to others, it is something you owe to yourself. At times, Alf, you act like an arrogant 'lefty intellectual', which gives no-one any reason to respect you. You did your thesis on FOOTBALL for God's sake. Hardly Nobel Prize-winning material there mate. [/Bluey]

 

[Darky]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Send them back now...

Originally posted by Dr AlfAndrews


This coming from someone whose signature is "go and get stuffed".

I take people as I find them. If you act like a turd I'll treat you like one. I'm quite capable of disagreeing with someone in a civilised way ... but I'm only civil to people I respect.

Respect? I don't want your respect Dr Coco Pops.

Respect and common decency are two different things, or at least any shared similarity is shared to a lesser degree. There are many people on this site, and life in general, that I do not necessarily respect. It doesn't mean I feel the need to abuse them if they disagree with me.

I don't desire the respect of someone who needs to openly flaunt their qualifications to get a message across, because the message itself is full of abuse hidden behind the occasional big word. Abuse using big words is still abuse, Dralfie.

Your attempt at intellectual bullying will not work on me, however if you take it as a victory that I will cease to argue with someone of your abusive ilk, then victory is all yours. Then again, you're probably still trying to convince yourself that your mates from the Taliban got up over the forces of Dubya.

Keep dreaming Dralfie.