"September Sinkers"

[Crow-mo]

It's hard to defend Adelaide this year.

Forget the expectations at the beginning of the year and all that crap. What really counts is what were the genuine expectations for this match before the ball was bounced.

We were a short priced favourite to beat a somewhat depleted Collingwood team that looked incapable of beating us on paper.

Follow this up with a 25 point lead 2 minutes before half time which turned into a 31 point defeat on our home ground with our crowd, and what exactly did you like about this defeat?

Once again we were outcoached in a final, with our big names underperforming on a massive scale.

It was one of our poorest finals performances and we have put a few of those on the board in recent years.

Craig and crew have to take a very close look and acknowledge who are the under-performers in finals, including themselves.

Not a pretty story.

exactly.

we are not on the front foot here, and we just need to take it on the chin.

there is nothing good or acceptable about this.

 

[Rave Slave]

Agree with most everything posted here and indeed agree with Rucci.

We've earnt our reputation and nothing will change until we make it change.

The best way to do that is to win a flag. Can't see that happening anytime soon with the list we currently have. IMO we're in need of a Blightesque cleanout. Too many older guys too accustomed to being at the club like a part of the furniture.

Cleanout please

 

[relapse]

exactly.

we are not on the front foot here, and we just need to take it on the chin.

there is nothing good or acceptable about this.

Agreed, expectation at the start of the year means nothing.

The loss against the Pies was unacceptable IMO. The people who are trying to justify it are those that Rucci says "cant handle the truth". We lost a game we shouldnt have lost and it was as bad as that loss against St Kilda in 05, we just need to accept it and accept the criticism that comes along with it unfortunately.

 

[hellaeon]

I think it's fair to be critical of Craig at times and perhaps even after this game, but we also should acknowledge the fact that he HAS made positive changes to his match-day coaching this year. Many in here have commented that he is making moves and being a little more creative with his match-ups. So he's ironed out those little problems, he now needs to assess what happens in September. He is such a perfectionist I have no doubt he will be a harsher critic of himself than any of us could ever be.

Of our current list (excluding Bassett and Biglands who have retired), we have only 3 players over 200 games, 9 players with between 100-200 games (Incl. Burton on long term injury list), 5 players 50+ games (incl. Hentschel), 11 players 10-50 games, and 12 players with less than 10 games.

Of the three senior players, I would expect Goodwin to retire. Of our 9 players between 100-200 games, Burton is on the long term injury list, we could expect to lose McGregor and possibly one of Massie and Shirley (IMO Doughty is safe). That leaves 6 players with this level of experience for next year. Of the 5 players with >50 games, only Hentschel would be in doubt, but it appears he will be offered one more year to see how he comes up. Of our 11 players between 10-50 games, only Jericho would be a certainty to be delisted. Of our least experienced players, Campbell appears to be in doubt (according to many in here) as does Gallman. Including the retirements of Bassett and Biglands, we will lose 850+ games of experience. With 7 new players brought in, we will have the following breakdown:

2 >300
6 + Burton >100
5 >50
10 - 10-50
17 < 10

The bonus for us will be in the fact that players like Vince (31), Symes (36), Porps (44), Maric (30), Knights (50), Douglas (38) and Mackay (19) all look to be capable of very good footy who have now had another year of footy under their belts. Add to that the class and experience of Edwards, McLeod, Bock, Doughty, Johncock, Reilly, Rutten, Shirley/Massie, Stevens, VB and Thompson, and we have a pretty good nucleus of a team. Then we'll watch with anticipation the development of Tippett, Moran, Walker, Dangerfield, Griffin, Otten, Petrenko, Sellar, Armstrong, Jacky, Cook, Kite, Gill and the new draft selections.

I expect next year will be similar to this one, where we will have inconsistent form but still be there and there abouts come September.

In contrast look at Geelong:

Ablett Jr, (144) Bartel (131), Chapman (154), Corey (174), Enright (148), Harley (182), Hunt (120), Johnson (110), Kelly (127), Ling (180), Milburn (233), Mooney (166), Ottens (202), Rooke (110), Scarlett (204), Wojcinski (131), Mackie (80).

And Hawthorn:

Bateman (115), Brown (119), Campbell (100), Crawford (303), Croad (220), Dew (193), Guerra (154), Hodge (130), Jacobs (126), Mitchell (131), Williams (96), Sewell (83), Roughhead (81), Osborne (97), Lewis (81), Ladson (97), Clarke (96)

And Sydney:

Ablett ((119), Barry (233), Becan (88), Bolton,C (173), Bolton, J (210), Buchanan (107), Crouch (208), Davis (168), Everitt (290), Fosdike (164), Goodes (229), Hall (238), Jolly (143), Kenelly (157), Kirk (194), Mathews (198), Mattner (121), McVeigh (104), O'Keefe (163), O'Loughlin (286), Richards (102), Robert-Thomson (97)

It looks like we are a ways away from achieving those sort of #'s with our good players.

YAY someone with half a f**** brain. This post is brilliant and puts some perspective on the morons around here. You wingers should expect a bit more pain next year as well, but to me the bigger picture looks quite rosey. Craig has been smashed in the media in that craphole of Adelaide for so many things because those same morons treats an AFL premiership like ordering a meal from Hungry Jacks.

 

[footy4ever]

I didn't realise this thread would cause such a fuss. It was meant to be about an opportunistic journalist trying to cement himself in the hall of journalistic fame, by using his tried and proven tactic of mentioning something, eg in this case 'sinkers' and then later big-noting himself by saying everybody is calling them that...the term he so creatively invented.

Glad it led to further debate. No one can deny AFC's poor performance in finals of late.

But which king of the universe said it is AFC's god given right to win finals, and then when we lose, start pointing the finger. I think it just goes to show what a good job NC does with an average list, by getting them there in the first place - particularly 2007,2008.

But this tripe about being sinkers at final time just covers up the truth. - We don't have the players...yet. Why not just say it?

2006 was our year. We had the cattle then (compared to other teams) but we lost a huge amount of top enders to injury, which is the only reason we did not win the flag that year.

It is still clear to me that last weekend, the better team won. However this is not what this thread was meant to be about.

 

[RoosterLad]

YAY someone with half a f**** brain. This post is brilliant and puts some perspective on the morons around here. You wingers should expect a bit more pain next year as well, but to me the bigger picture looks quite rosey. Craig has been smashed in the media in that craphole of Adelaide for so many things because those same morons treats an AFL premiership like ordering a meal from Hungry Jacks.

Good to see you accept mediocrity. Those numbers jennifer put up are still no excuse for losing to Collingwood.


footy4ever. there is no God given right.... we were beaten by an inexperienced Collingwood side at home. we led by about 4 goals just before halftime and lose by 5. stop making excuses. you belong at Richmond.

 

[maccas_no1]

Despite Neil obviously being clearly the best man for the job in Adelaide atm, I agree, extending a contract halfway through without any results to back it up is rediculous.

Neil has already declared he won't coach anywhere else, so there is no worry of him being poached.

Make him fight tooth and nail for it.

Exactly right thats my huge issue with the whole NC thing, apart from a good win/loss ratio what else have we gained?? Under NC we have lost two NAB Cup GF's both at AAMI and have a 2-7 finals winning record

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

Exactly right thats my huge issue with the whole NC thing, apart from a good win/loss ratio what else have we gained?? Under NC we have lost two NAB Cup GF's both at AAMI and have a 2-7 finals winning record

Alright how to we fix it? What are a few things that successful teams have that we don't? I can think of two things that stand out like dogs b*lls.

 

[hellaeon]

Good to see you accept mediocrity. Those numbers jennifer put up are still no excuse for losing to Collingwood.


footy4ever. there is no God given right.... we were beaten by an inexperienced Collingwood side at home. we led by about 4 goals just before halftime and lose by 5. stop making excuses. you belong at Richmond.

I accept reality. Without a functioning forward line for most of the year we finish 7th. Carlton did not make the finals and they have a player who kicked 99 goals. Richmond have a goalkicking champion in Richo but did not make the finals...crows have...a crumber in Porpz with a busted shoulder and burton who was gone last 3rd of season...Its not accepting mediocrity, it is stepping back and looking at it constructively.
Geelong dont have noteable forwards either, but they have a team of experienced players as the post noted. Hawthorn too, with the bonus of Franklin and Roughhead. I can't believe people actually expected us to make a massive dent in the finals...we almost 'fell' into 4th....lol....idiot.

 

[maccas_no1]

Alright how to we fix it? What are a few things that successful teams have that we don't? I can think of two things that stand out like dogs b*lls.

Match Day coaching is the clear one, I was bit baffled as to why in 3rd quarter on Saturday Stevens was in the backlines

Finals he obviously goes to water, yet seems to babble out the same excuses, they were actually paying NC out on Triple M in Melbourne yesterday afternoon,m they were taking extracts from his press confrence and replayinmg them and then having someone snoring in the back ground.

 

[jenny61_99]

Good to see you accept mediocrity. Those numbers jennifer put up are still no excuse for losing to Collingwood.


footy4ever. there is no God given right.... we were beaten by an inexperienced Collingwood side at home. we led by about 4 goals just before halftime and lose by 5. stop making excuses. you belong at Richmond.

Jennifer???

Ok first things first. I didn't use those numbers as an "excuse" for losing on the weekend, rather as an attempt to explain perhaps why we fade out. So many in here have this unrealistic expectation of a pretty average team. As someone else said earlier, Neil Craig is an absolute victim of his own brilliance. There is NO WAY a team such as ours with a very average main core of players should be reaching the finals in the first place. When we do reach the finals, then everyone expects them to actually go somewhere and are shocked, dismayed and confused when we don't.

Those figures I quoted show you VERY clearly why we don't go further than we do. We have one or two match winners/breakers, super stars in their prime in that 22-29 year 100+ game category - both Hawthorn and Geelong have multiple options.

That game on the weekend went in ebbs and flows. They were up, then we were, then they fought back, and we tried to come back (got within 8 pts in the final quarter) before our sheer lack of brilliance saw us loosen the grip with Collingwood walking away with the win.

 

[OzSparrow]

Jennifer???

Ok first things first. I didn't use those numbers as an "excuse" for losing on the weekend, rather as an attempt to explain perhaps why we fade out. So many in here have this unrealistic expectation of a pretty average team. As someone else said earlier, Neil Craig is an absolute victim of his own brilliance. There is NO WAY a team such as ours with a very average main core of players should be reaching the finals in the first place. When we do reach the finals, then everyone expects them to actually go somewhere and are shocked, dismayed and confused when we don't.

Those figures I quoted show you VERY clearly why we don't go further than we do. We have one or two match winners/breakers, super stars in their prime in that 22-29 year 100+ game category - both Hawthorn and Geelong have multiple options.

That game on the weekend went in ebbs and flows. They were up, then we were, then they fought back, and we tried to come back (got within 8 pts in the final quarter) before our sheer lack of brilliance saw us loosen the grip with Collingwood walking away with the win.

Excellent post Jen. Spot on!

Nice to see that someone has actually stated clearly and succinctly and with cold hard irrefutable facts the issue with our list management (and the direct correlation that this brings with our September "failures").

Consistently finishing as finalists without a flag has crucified us over the past 4 years (at least). The draft is deliberately structured to bring our type of club back to the pack and, quite frankly, it has worked a treat with the AFC.

IMHO we were damn lucky to finish where we have in the last 2 years and the time has come for some of us to accept that we are not as good as we think we are. Pre-season, I tipped us to finish 7th-8th and lo and behold thats where we are.

This is not due to Craigy or our draw or our finals record or the boot-studder or bias or a conspiracy or losses in close games or injuries or the fans or lack of fans or whatever etc etc. It is due simply to the fact that we do not have the cattle!!!!

Like it or not, footy fans, this is our rebuilding phase! These kids will, in 3 to 5 years, be the mainstay of a powerful club and then...look out!

The club's main goal over that period MUST be to keep them together and motivate them to seek the Holy Grail! That includes support staff and players.

Consistency is needed at this time and not some chicken-littles running around screaming the sky is falling!

End of rant!

 

[achancely]

Jennifer???

Ok first things first. I didn't use those numbers as an "excuse" for losing on the weekend, rather as an attempt to explain perhaps why we fade out. So many in here have this unrealistic expectation of a pretty average team. As someone else said earlier, Neil Craig is an absolute victim of his own brilliance. There is NO WAY a team such as ours with a very average main core of players should be reaching the finals in the first place. When we do reach the finals, then everyone expects them to actually go somewhere and are shocked, dismayed and confused when we don't.

Those figures I quoted show you VERY clearly why we don't go further than we do. We have one or two match winners/breakers, super stars in their prime in that 22-29 year 100+ game category - both Hawthorn and Geelong have multiple options.

That game on the weekend went in ebbs and flows. They were up, then we were, then they fought back, and we tried to come back (got within 8 pts in the final quarter) before our sheer lack of brilliance saw us loosen the grip with Collingwood walking away with the win.

What a stupid post. Full of excuses and blinkered bleating.

Craig is not brilliant. He had one good idea and he hasn't updated it in 5 years, despite teams having worked it out and improved on it 3 years ago.

His team is a consistent finals failure. 2005 and 2006 we were hugely dominant - don't give me this 'not good enough' shit, because that's bullshit - and we fell apart in the finals. That is Craig's gameplan. It is not appropriate for finals without the tweaking done by the likes of Hawthorn and Geelong.

Craig is resting on a very rotten set of laurels.

As for 'sheer lack of brilliance', well, screw me sideways jenny - what the hell do you think Collingwood are? They have a more mediocre line-up than ours, but unlike us they rise to the occasion in finals. And a lot of that is their brilliant coach. Craig is not brilliant - Malthouse is.

Collingwood missed Rocca, Burns, Shaw and Didak. That's four of their absolute top-liners. And they still smashed us.

We had it all going for us, and collapsed badly. Don't EVER claim we can ignore our good performance in the season and accept failure in the finals - because that is your appalling argument in a nutshell.

 

[*PAF]

Excellent post Jen. ... This is not due to Craigy or our draw or our finals record or the boot-studder or bias or a conspiracy or losses in close games or injuries or the fans or lack of fans or whatever etc etc. It is due simply to the fact that we do not have the cattle!!!!
...

And who is responsible for you not having the cattle?
Rucci? Port? The AFL?

 

[RoosterLad]

Yep, he is far from brilliant.

We were extremely lucky to even go close to top 4 this year as we hardly beat anybody of note. There were a lot of average, inconsistent teams this year.

 

[Hondo]

Craig is not brilliant. He had one good idea and he hasn't updated it in 5 years, despite teams having worked it out and improved on it 3 years ago.

Tell us about the one good idea he had in 2003 (before he was coaching us)

Then tell us how we win any games at all if everyone has worked it out

Then tell us what he's been doing with his time since 2003 while he sticks to the same sheet of paper with "MY GAME PLAN" written on it. Must be a bit torn and faded by now

 

[Crow-mo]

YAY someone with half a f**** brain. This post is brilliant and puts some perspective on the morons around here. You wingers should expect a bit more pain next year as well, but to me the bigger picture looks quite rosey. Craig has been smashed in the media in that craphole of Adelaide for so many things because those same morons treats an AFL premiership like ordering a meal from Hungry Jacks.

right.

so you think a post that uses the number of games a player has played, as the proper unit of measurement, without reference to their underlying quality is "brilliant".

thanks for that.

 

[Crow-mo]

I accept reality. Without a functioning forward line for most of the year we finish 7th. Carlton did not make the finals and they have a player who kicked 99 goals. Richmond have a goalkicking champion in Richo but did not make the finals...crows have...a crumber in Porpz with a busted shoulder and burton who was gone last 3rd of season...Its not accepting mediocrity, it is stepping back and looking at it constructively.
Geelong dont have noteable forwards either, but they have a team of experienced players as the post noted. Hawthorn too, with the bonus of Franklin and Roughhead. I can't believe people actually expected us to make a massive dent in the finals...we almost 'fell' into 4th....lol....idiot.

so again, you post a load of old cobblers that has nothing to do with the game on the weekend, as some sort of defense of the game on the weekend?

 

[achancely]

Tell us about the one good idea he had in 2003 (before he was coaching us)

You don't think he developed his gameplan while he was assistant coach?

Then tell us how we win any games at all if everyone has worked it out

Because it's still good enough to beat average teams. It's a regular season winner, but falls apart under finals pressure.

Then tell us what he's been doing with his time since 2003 while he sticks to the same sheet of paper with "MY GAME PLAN" written on it. Must be a bit torn and faded by now

I daresay reading books on sports science.

 

[crowsup]

I accept reality. Without a functioning forward line for most of the year we finish 7th. Carlton did not make the finals and they have a player who kicked 99 goals. Richmond have a goalkicking champion in Richo but did not make the finals...crows have...a crumber in Porpz with a busted shoulder and burton who was gone last 3rd of season...Its not accepting mediocrity, it is stepping back and looking at it constructively.
Geelong dont have noteable forwards either, but they have a team of experienced players as the post noted. Hawthorn too, with the bonus of Franklin and Roughhead. I can't believe people actually expected us to make a massive dent in the finals...we almost 'fell' into 4th....lol....idiot.

You're wasting your time coming out with common sense on this board. It (common sense) is not very common here.
Here it is expected that a list with a few almost has beens and not one top 10 pick should beat the likes of Geelong and Hawthorn.
Some deluded people here think that if we had MM as coach we would have won a flag. MM, who hasn't been able to win one in ten years with Collingwood. If he is such a good coach, let me see him winning the flag this year!!

 

[Crow-mo]

Some deluded people here think that if we had MM as coach we would have won a flag. MM, who hasn't been able to win one in ten years with Collingwood. If he is such a good coach, let me see him winning the flag this year!!

this barely deserves a response, let alone be called common sense.
what MM has achieved with a crappy list is phenomenal.

every year we fall over in finals, whereas his teams find a second wind from somewhere.

they were younger, less experienced, full of no name players coming off a loss against fremantle, missing more important star players players, away from home - and they were 10 goals better than us after half time.

more to the point if what MM has done is so unremarkable, why did our club come out last year and say it wanted to copy Collingwood's rebuilding program as the model for us?

we don't need a cheer squad, and to be honest complaining about the obvious shortcomings won't change much either, but being part of the cheer squad is jusy annoying to those who aren't mindlessly drinking the kool aid.

 

[Macca19]

As someone else said earlier, Neil Craig is an absolute victim of his own brilliance.

Thats pulling a very long bow.

There is NO WAY a team such as ours with a very average main core of players should be reaching the finals in the first place.

This isnt a crack at you specifically, but you cant have it both ways. Crows players get talked up all year by their supporters, everyone is a gun and then when you lose a final they are all shit and over performed. Everyone here chortled at media suggestions you were a bottom 4 side in the pre season and almost everyone here predicted a 6-10 finish. When you were going great guns earlier in the year everyone was 'pfftt what does the media know, we're showing them'. When you beat the Dogs and were in 4th spot the same thing 'that stuck it up those who thought we were bottom 4'...then suddenly you lose a final it goes 180 degrees and its 'what do you expect, we're a bottom 4 team etc'. You cant have it both ways

4 1/2 years ago when Craig took over, he apparently took over a bottom 4 list in a terrible state. 4 1/2 years later, you are still supposedly a bottom 4 list in a terrible state and a very average core group of players. Considering this supposed lack of progression in half a decade, what does it say about the recruiting or player development in that time?

In reality, Craig took over a much better list than people gave it credit for and are still underrating the list. You dont have a bottom 4 list. All year you hear how outstanding all these crows players are...but then suddenly they turn into nothing but plodders?

Those figures I quoted show you VERY clearly why we don't go further than we do. We have one or two match winners/breakers, super stars in their prime in that 22-29 year 100+ game category - both Hawthorn and Geelong have multiple options.

Only Geelong. The Hawthorn and Sydney lists were filled with either fading regulars or outright plodders and are in no way hugely superior to Adelaides list.

 

[Crow-mo]

Macca, that is a very good post. very valid.

 

[SydCrow]

Which comes first, the game plan or the players?

If you have a Luke Hodge and a Buddy Franklin is your game plan different to that if you have a Brett Kirk and an Adam Goodes?

Do you teach the players your game style or do you fit the style to the players' strengths?

Why do Collingwood youngsters seem to be able to come in and perform at a high level whereas ours don't? Is their game plan easier to implement or are they better players?

 

[Crow-mo]

Which comes first, the game plan or the players?

it actually doesn't matter which comes first. they have to be matched up though.

if they're not, then that is a coaching error.

you recruit to your plan, or you plan to your players.