Sheehans Top 50

[TheTimeCometh]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

Yet some still don't get it.

emoting me, emoticon you.

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

What does that mean?

What I meant is that I don't buy the argument of trying to judge someone by hypothetically putting them in a different team and then saying that they would be awesome.

You can only judge someone by the situation they are currently in. they are who they are. Anything else is just meaningless guesswork.

Leadership?! West Coast lost Cousins and Judd prior to '08, and were then decimated by injuries. Kerr himself had hammy trouble in the preseason, and then chronic knee trouble throughout the season. You might be being a bit harsh.

Geelong were crap and rudderless in 2006. Did you rate only the BnF winner at the time, Paul Chapman?

Maybe I am being a tad harsh re: Kerr. But the fact remains that he reacted very badly (indisciplined acts leading to suspensions, poor form, etc) to being put under pressure as the focus in the midfield. Plus, he is coming off injury troubles as you rightly point out.

I am not saying that he wasn't a fantastic player up until 2007, but right now he is a risk IMO and has alot to prove before I will consider him a truly elite player again.

I place a lot of credence in what a player has done recently and until he shows that he can onion up when the pressure is on and become injury free again, then in my eyes there he will have a lot to prove.

And yes, Chappy was one of the few players to stand up in 2006, and it took a huge turnaround by some players to allow Geeong to become where they are today. Which leads me to my next point......

Gee, that serves your argument nicely, doesn't it: "SJ was one of the main catalysts... whereas Kerr couldn't make a positive impact on a bad sitiation"... I think you've misrepresented it quite badly. Firstly, I could list about 10 other things that contributed to Geelong's turn around other than SJ getting fit, and secondly, West Coast experienced more than a 'bad situation' in 2008. I'd be interested to hear how you think one player could have have rendered even the slightest element of positivity to the debacle at the Weagles that year.

Kerr played well in a crap team at the start of his career, but there was no pressure on him as a rookie. In reality he faced real adversity for the first time in his career in 2008. And do you know how he handled it? His form was terrible, and he lashed out on the field and got himself suspended when his team needed him the most. Not only did he not provide anything positive in the situation, he made a bad situation worse. If he sucked it up and played like a pro, I would have had immense respect for him. But he didn't, he reacted like a petulant child.

SJ on the other hand, well his career was just about finished when he came back into the side in 2007. He had made a bunch of mistakes. But how did he react to being on his last chance? He got fitter than ever, became more of a team player, and became the player we all thought he could be.

Now lets talk about performing under adversity and when the pressure is on. Harken your mind back to Round 6 2007. Geelong were playing Richmond at the dome in a crucial game for the club. We were 2 and 3 having come off an embarassing loss at KP to the Kangaroos, there was widespread speculation that Thompson would be sacked if we lost, and a lot of players were firmly in the gun due to not living up to their promise. SJ included. On top of this, he was making his return from a club imposed suspension that placed him on very thin ice at the club. Basically he was playing for his career at this point. High pressure stuff for player and club you would have to admit.

And how did he react to the situation? He becomes the dominant highly skilled forward we have been crying out for, wins all australian in 17 games played, carries this form through the finals and wins the norm smith. Then he carries this form through 2008 as well just for good measure.

It cannot be argued that his form was one of the absolute key reasons why we turned it around in 2007. Hell, the turnaround occurred on the exact game that he returned to the team. I am not saying that he was the only reason, but he was a massive factor.

Kerr may come out this season and be a catalyst for WC improving on a disastrous 2008. If he does I will tip my cap to him and say "well played". But he has shown nothing to date that suggests that he is going to do this, in fact to date he has reacted poorly when he has been in the gun.

That's just plain incorrect. Kerr is entirely unique as a midfielder. He is a superb mark for a man of 178cm (well know for taking the odd screamer), he is incredibly strong and a fatastic tackler, he has great skills, and is very quick. Ask any West Coast fan about 2004 - 2006. They'll tell you just how highly they rated Kerr alongside Cousins and Judd.

You might be suffering from a typical case of BigFooty-shortmemoryitis. Or just good old fashioned bias. If Kerr came to the Cats, or any team where he didn't cop a heavy tag week in, week out, I reckon you'd change your tune pretty quickly.

He is not a unique midfielder. At his prime he was a fantastic midfielder, but you could argue that Judd, Ablett, Selwood, Bartel, Mitchell (the list goes on) could step into his role. SJ on the other hand, the only guy I can think of in the league right now who has a similar skill set and plays a similar role would be Didak.

Shortmemoryitis? Perhaps. But as I said above, I place a lot of crednce in the most recent form of a player because it is the best indication of where they are in their career right now.

Again, I don't argue that Kerr wasn't a great player in 2004-2006. But he was in a completely different situation in 2004 -2006 to what he is now. I am judging him on the situation that he currently is in. And all indications to date are that he has not reacted well to his current situation.

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

If you do lose that logic you would then be wondering why Geelong don't trade Bartel for Travis Cloke then. Get a valuable CHF mate. Offer the Pies the deal. After all you will still have 3 top notch mids

I wouldn't trade Bartel for Cloke, but I agree with what you are saying, even though you are taking the piss.

Say for example we were offered Roughead for Bartel I wouldn't be upset if we accepted. A quality key forward for a gun mid, where we would be trading from a position of strength and depth. I would do it.

Let the abuse begin

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

Yeah of course, Ablett is a champion midfielder.

Doesn't mean Kerr is not unique, or at the very least NOT a player whom MANY can emulate, which was the suggestion Hinkley29 made.

Do I detect some preciousness amongst Cats supporters today, with respect to their beloved players?

Considering I just admitted that I would trade Bartel for Roughead, then I don't think there is much preciousness at all.

We have a difference of opinion re: Kerr, but I am not suggesting that you are precious about it. What does preciousness have to do with not thinking kerr is unique? I just don't, there is nothing more to it than that.

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

Well i just checked Rucci's top 50... which is unbelievably somehow more idiodic than Sheehan's. No Steve Johnson in there, however 5 Geelong players in the top 15 with Ling at 12 and Chapman at 21 With Joel Corey all the way down at 37

I dont agree with your Ottens to be a certainty. He was brought to the club to be primarily a ruck and resting forward, he'd be the 4th or 5th best in the league as a ruck (behind Cox, Sandilands and Hille at least), hes dangerous up forward, but for the role he plays hes not a top 50 player.

Oh and now i guess theres going to be a Hodge rated no.4 thread now

Yeah, Chappy and Ling are way too high, and no SJ is just a joke.

Agree with Catempire below in that not many give Ottens the credit he deserves. He is a class ruckman, and gives our mids an armchair ride. I woudl defintiely have him above Hille as 3rd best in the comp. But I value good ruckmen highly and he certainly is a good one. He is not much of a forward these days though, his kicking for goals is not great anymore.

 

[RoJo Junior]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

Sorry Hinkley i dont follow your argument re. S.Johnson.

You claim that Kerr should've stood up as a senior player when the team needed him most last year when my side was struggling. Yet hows that any different to S. Johnson's performances when the Cats were merely average 3+ years back. Thats not considered playing within himself to the detriment of the team?

It just seems you're discounting Kerr's ability, yet heralding SJ, despite the fact he's failed to prove what you're criticising Kerr for?

They're both one and the same to me.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

THERE was dispute last year about the 2008 Norm Smith medallist. When isn't there? From a seemingly even set of Hawthorn performances and a brilliant one from Gary Ablett jnr, plenty of prospects were considered. Ultimately the right decision was made. Luke Hodge was clearly the most influential player on the field.

Hodge alone shored up a defensive structure that had been compromised as the season progressed. By September, he became the last line of defence behind a much-vaunted "cluster" that quality teams had started to punch holes in. Whether the constant third man up or the man dropping into the hole, Hodge was a thorn in the side that opposition teams just couldn't reach. Even the best team of the era couldn't find a way around, over or through him.

Without Hodge, the premiership could not have been won; without Hodge, every team in the competition may not be as interested in midfield zones. He has a lot to answer for.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/nathan-buckley/2009/03/20/1237526331272.html

 

[croady_fan24]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

Yes, 5 isn't right for Hodge. Should be higher

ohh totally. Hodge deserves higher! His a superstar!!

 

[TheTimeCometh]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

this shits nearly worse than the rubber neckin by the media after the fires.

 

[TheTimeCometh]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

yes. best to take 'hodge' outta the quick search option.

 

[darren forssman]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

yes. best to take 'hodge' outta the quick search option.

premiership!!!

 

[TheHonestyPolicy]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

Sorry Hinkley i dont follow your argument re. S.Johnson.

You claim that Kerr should've stood up as a senior player when the team needed him most last year when my side was struggling. Yet hows that any different to S. Johnson's performances when the Cats were merely average 3+ years back. Thats not considered playing within himself to the detriment of the team?

It just seems you're discounting Kerr's ability, yet heralding SJ, despite the fact he's failed to prove what you're criticising Kerr for?

They're both one and the same to me.

I thought this issue died but oh well.

I have to conkerr with your view here. There was alot written on the previous page to basically just contradict yourself in basic principle.

As for something else I picked up on from H29. Comparing SJ to Didak when No.4 is far more a 1 sided player than SJ is clearly an incorrect comparison. I have to wonder also what this new term "unique" really means when you are comparing left and right footers so seamlessly?

If by "unique" its meant to say there is only 2 players doing mercurial things in the AFL in a certain way, well thats garbage. At any rate if I had to pick between SJ and Chappy both fit to play the same role I would give up SJ's fancy tricks for someone I consider closer to a HF champion.
What Chappy brings is incredibly unique too, just not as spectacular, but equally if not more rarified. So what's really the point to all this? I dunno.

 

[Ninty]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

ohh totally. Hodge deserves higher! His a superstar!!

His what?

 

[CF]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

With that use of grammer you'd have thought that Dawks poster was a Collingwood Supporter.

 

[Cohzee]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

His what?

He is talking about his A.

 

[TheTimeCometh]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

With that use of grammer you'd have thought that Dawks poster was a Collingwood Supporter.

ahem...er, "grammar".

y'know, glass houses and all that jazz.

 

[TheTimeCometh]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

HEY, galon, CHECK YER PM'S

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

Sorry Hinkley i dont follow your argument re. S.Johnson.

You claim that Kerr should've stood up as a senior player when the team needed him most last year when my side was struggling. Yet hows that any different to S. Johnson's performances when the Cats were merely average 3+ years back. Thats not considered playing within himself to the detriment of the team?

It just seems you're discounting Kerr's ability, yet heralding SJ, despite the fact he's failed to prove what you're criticising Kerr for?

They're both one and the same to me.

SJ came into a struggling team in 2007 and was a major factor behind them becoming a dominant team.

Kerr played in a struggling team in 2008 and was garbage. He still has the chance to do what SJ did, but he hasn't yet.

SJ has done it, Kerr hasn't. Simple really.

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

If by "unique" its meant to say there is only 2 players doing mercurial things in the AFL in a certain way, well thats garbage. At any rate if I had to pick between SJ and Chappy both fit to play the same role I would give up SJ's fancy tricks for someone I consider closer to a HF champion.
What Chappy brings is incredibly unique too, just not as spectacular, but equally if not more rarified. So what's really the point to all this? I dunno.

This is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I love the way Chappy goes about his footy, and his agression and passion are super important. I am not denying that, however Chappy's last 2 years have not been great. Injury related yes, but it is true.

SJ gives us a something we lack otherwise: A forward who kicks goals, creates goals, is a very difficult matchup (what type of player do you put on him?) and can create something out of nothing. The last point is probably the most important. The AFL these days is very clinical, teams are really disciplined, and they are really good at combatting other team's gameplans. And this makes unpredictable guys who can make something out of nothing so valuable.

And as far as SJ being "unique", let me explain. How many players in the league have done (or could you even conceivably see doing) all of the following over the last couple of years:

- Consistent possession winner (20+ per game)
- Consistent Goal Kicker (50+ per season)
- Top 5 in the league in assists
- Can do the mercurial and create goals (both for himself and teammates) out of situations where nothing was happening
- Does the stuff that can't be taught which is super important in today's AFL.

I am starting to think that SJ's contribution to our success is seriously undervalued.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

HEY, galon, CHECK YER PM'S

Why? I don't have any messages.

 

[TheTimeCometh]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

you sure?

nah, that aint right.

 

[TheHonestyPolicy]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

This is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I love the way Chappy goes about his footy, and his agression and passion are super important. I am not denying that, however Chappy's last 2 years have not been great. Injury related yes, but it is true.

SJ gives us a something we lack otherwise: A forward who kicks goals, creates goals, is a very difficult matchup (what type of player do you put on him?) and can create something out of nothing. The last point is probably the most important. The AFL these days is very clinical, teams are really disciplined, and they are really good at combatting other team's gameplans. And this makes unpredictable guys who can make something out of nothing so valuable.

And as far as SJ being "unique", let me explain. How many players in the league have done (or could you even conceivably see doing) all of the following over the last couple of years:

- Consistent possession winner (20+ per game)
- Consistent Goal Kicker (50+ per season)
- Top 5 in the league in assists
- Can do the mercurial and create goals (both for himself and teammates) out of situations where nothing was happening
- Does the stuff that can't be taught which is super important in today's AFL.

I am starting to think that SJ's contribution to our success is seriously undervalued.

I agree SJ is mercurial but using only the last 2 seasons is too convenient.

Where was he before 07 is just as relevant to measuring the whole of Kerr's career and not just 2008 where West Coast went through upheaval.
SJ missed the struggling part of 07 and returned in the Richmond game where we won by 150 whatever pts. If you are greatly likening such a rise to 1 player in a star studded side like Geelong's then we disagree a fair bit.

There are a few players at Geelong who are underrated. SJ currently isnt one of them and his AA selection would suggest nobody is missing it. To suggest he is a half forward/midfield type champion then you have to compare him to guys like Hird, Brad Johnson and more recently Brent Harvey. He isnt in this league so I am happy to disagree as you say. I rate Gaz and Chappy higher also.

There are also plenty of mercurial players in the league who would have benefitted from playing in Geelong's forward line since round 6 07

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

At the risk of flogging a dead horse......

I agree SJ is mercurial but using only the last 2 seasons is too convenient.

Not is isn't. I am rating SJ where he is in his career right now. And the most relevant form you can use to judge where a player is at the current point in their career is their most recent significant sample size of form.

If this ranking was a list of where players ranked over the course of their entire careers then I would agree with you. But that isn't the point of the exercise, we are trying to figure out where a player is at right now.

Where was he before 07 is just as relevant to measuring the whole of Kerr's career and not just 2008 where West Coast went through upheaval.

As per above, I am rating Kerr where he is at right now. And right now he is in the same situation he was in 2008. Therefore the most relevant form to judge Kerr on is his 2008 form. You can maybe argue that injury was a major factor in his 2008 form and forgive him accordingly. But personally I think he reacted badly to a tough situation which he still finds himself in.

So Kerr is in a completely different situation to where he was pre-2007. And given I am trying to figure out where he rates right now (ie. I am not trying to judge Kerr over the course of his career), his pre-20007 form is IMO not as good an indicator of his future form as his post-2007 form.

Using pre-2007 form to judge where SJ and Kerr are at right now, is like trying to pick the winner of a horse race based on the horse's form from 3 years ago. Who cares if they were winning races in 2006 if they haven't won anything in the last 2 years? I sure as hell aint going to throw any hard earned on a horse that has been lame for 2 years.

SJ missed the struggling part of 07 and returned in the Richmond game where we won by 150 whatever pts. If you are greatly likening such a rise to 1 player in a star studded side like Geelong's then we disagree a fair bit.

I never stated that SJ was the only catalyst for our 2007 season. I do believe however that he was a huge factor in our turnaround. If you don't think the same then that is your perogative. I just can't agree with you.

There are a few players at Geelong who are underrated. SJ currently isnt one of them and his AA selection would suggest nobody is missing it. To suggest he is a half forward/midfield type champion then you have to compare him to guys like Hird, Brad Johnson and more recently Brent Harvey. He isnt in this league so I am happy to disagree as you say. I rate Gaz and Chappy higher also.

Not that it is overly relevant, but I rate SJ higher than Brad Johnson as a player right now (I don't think many would disagree with me) and Brent Harvey plays a different role. Hird clearly had a better career than SJ has, but how is that relevant to how SJ is rated right now?

Gaz is clearly a better player, but he is not a better half forward than SJ. Chappy is simply not as good a player as SJ right now. At the end of 2006, Chappy was streets ahead, but right now (yes there is a pattern emerging) SJ is easily a better player. Just my opinion.

There are also plenty of mercurial players in the league who would have benefitted from playing in Geelong's forward line since round 6 07

Again, this is where we will have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe that good teams turn average players into good ones. I think that is a simply a myth that has grown legs because of the sheep mentality on BF.

I believe that great players make teams great, not the other way around.

 

[TheTimeCometh]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

where is wag these days?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Re: Hodge rated no. 5

you sure?

nah, that aint right.

I have not received a PM.