Should the AFL allow Essendon to play if charged with doping ?

[matthew_s]

Why wouldn't they go after everything they can, while they can? Interesting that AOD wasn't mentioned on Dank's show cause and the burrito salsa juice is apparently not going to be mentioned on the player's show causes.

They'd want to be pretty certain they have the right thymoson. Although that's easy to do when you ignore Jobe Watson's testimony.

Why do you think no mention of the 'Mexican drug' actually means anything? Let alone a good sign?

The drug or whatever it was has never been identified beyond that it was something used to treat muscular dystrophy!

The whole hoo-hah about the 'Mexican drug' was that nobody knew what it was and its use (which was acknowledged by Essendon press releases) was the pharmacological equivalent of stealing someone else's month old lunch from the work fridge...!!!

 

[MightyHawks]

Why wouldn't they go after everything they can, while they can? Interesting that AOD wasn't mentioned on Dank's show cause and the burrito salsa juice is apparently not going to be mentioned on the player's show causes.

They'd want to be pretty certain they have the right thymosin. Although that's easy to do when you ignore Jobe Watson's testimony.

The Thymosin charge is a lock

Evidence that Essendon had Bad Thymosin
No evidence that Essendon actually had Good Thymosin
Evidence that a thymosin was being injected

Easy dots to join

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Why wouldn't they go after everything they can, while they can? Interesting that AOD wasn't mentioned on Dank's show cause and the burrito salsa juice is apparently not going to be mentioned on the player's show causes.

They'd want to be pretty certain they have the right thymosin. Although that's easy to do when you ignore Jobe Watson's testimony.

Why not just rely on Dank's?

Nick McKenzie: Thymosin Beta 4 – why was that used in Essendon players given there is an opinion from a doctor or researcher and other scientists that its effects are uncertain? (note: The AFL believes it has a strong circumstantial case that TB-4 was used on players.)

Stephen Dank: That's not totally true Nick because, with all due respect, right, there is good data – very good data – that supports Thymosin Beta 4 in the immune system.

NM: OK, why give it to all Essendon players if only some of them had colds and flu?

SD: Well, the point is that there is a degree of immunosuppression after a game or a hard training week, right. Often times the ability to back up next week is decreased by the hit on the immune system.

NM: Did you see any indications in Essendon players that it actually helped them?

SD: Well apart from the fact they won 11 out of their first 14, right, and we did regular bloods [blood tests] . . . at the end of the day I was very happy with the science, I was very happy after working a long time in football, right, that there are periods of malaise which are possibly related to sub-clinical flus and sub-clinical colds, right, which can affect performance. When we want to be honest, Nick, how much performance data is there out there on Actovegin [calf's blood extract)]

NM: There's a lot, isn't there?

SD: No there's not! So, you know, you've got to extrapolate from the science.

NM: How often were Essendon players taking Thymosin Beta 4?

SD: [Explains the dosage level but asks that this be not published].

NM: ASADA has just released on its website that Thymosin Beta 4 is prohibited in all routes and out of competition.

SD: Well, that must have just only come in this year and I will get someone to speak to ASADA about that. That's just mind-blowing.

NM: Thymosin Beta 4, they must have just banned that.

SD: I think they've only just put that in to back up their case.



Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-science-of-stephen-dank-20130823-2shhd.html#ixzz31bqBmK2k

 

[TerryWallet]

ASADA, with the go ahead from Judge Downes, are going after TB-4 for maybe the whole 2012 list. Probably the 38 who signed the consent form stating weekly Thymosin jabs.

Looks like they have ruled out going after AOD.

I wonder if the Trial Drug AOD now gets handed over to other interested bodies, ie Worksafe?

 

[Jobe Watson]

Why do you think no mention of the 'Mexican drug' actually means anything? Let alone a good sign?

The drug or whatever it was has never been identified beyond that it was something used to treat muscular dystrophy!

I don't think it's ever been said that the nacho cheese drug was used to treat muscular dystrophy per say - just that it was 'owned' by a muscular dystrophy patient. And that patient alleged told people that the quesadilla liquid was an amino acid and multi-vitamin supplement.

The Thymosin charge is a lock

Evidence that Essendon had Bad Thymosin
No evidence that Essendon actually had Good Thymosin
Evidence that a thymosin was being injected

Easy dots to join

Perhaps, but I'd like to see that charge stand up when all the evidence is circumstantial at best, and you have other circumstantial evidence (photographs, player testimony and spreadsheets) to the contrary, and even if it was the 'bad' thymodulin it was given to players under the assurances that it was a safe and legal drug.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

This seems like the typical pro Essendon rhetoric that comes out after every big news story, hopefully the trend will continue and an even bigger piece will come back over the top.

I'll be sickened if the AFL allow Essendon to keep playing, playing dumb (even though it's clear they cheated) for this long was bad enough, but to allow them to continue play whilst they exhaust pointless avenues of appeal to worm themselves out is beyond reproach.

This is the same AFL that strongly suggests players (like Marley Williams) are stood down until decisions are finalised, surely they cannot look themselves in the mirror if Essendon are allowed to play after their cheating ways are laid out for the world to see.

 

[MightyHawks]

Perhaps, but I'd like to see that charge stand up when all the evidence is circumstantial at best, and you have other circumstantial evidence (photographs, player testimony and spreadsheets) to the contrary, and even if it was the 'bad' thymodulin it was given to players under the assurances that it was a safe and legal drug.

Unfortunately it's completely irrelevant what the players thought they took

I would have a lot more sympathy for the players if before starting the program they had:
A) Consulted their managers
B) Consulted the AFLPA
C) Consulted the AFL
D) Consulted ASADA
E) Any of the above

I think the lack of any of those actions by the Essendon players indicates that they thought they were doing something dodgy

 

[TerryWallet]

Perhaps, but I'd like to see that charge stand up when all the evidence is circumstantial at best, and you have other circumstantial evidence (photographs, player testimony and spreadsheets) to the contrary, and even if it was the 'bad' thymodulin it was given to players under the assurances that it was a safe and legal drug.

Speaking generally, Mr McDevitt paused to repeat what he saw as the bottom line on doping.

“Each professional athlete is personally responsible for what substances enter their body,” he said.

“ASADA’s reason for being is to protect Australia’s sporting integrity and the health of Australia’s athletes ... we have to jealously guard our reputation for fair play.

“As Australians, we all love sports and we all hate cheats.”


Also,

John Fahey: "History shows 99% of caught drug cheats claim innocence"

aint that da truth

 

[Jobe Watson]

Unfortunately it's completely irrelevant what the players thought they took

I would have a lot more sympathy for the players if before starting the program they had:
A) Consulted their managers
B) Consulted the AFLPA
C) Consulted the AFL
D) Consulted ASADA
E) Any of the above

I think the lack of any of those actions by the Essendon players indicates that they thought they were doing something dodgy

Players are asked first and foremost to consult their club doctors.

They asked for multiple reassurances from the people they trusted - employees of their football club - that what was going on was a-ok. They received presentations, verbal reassurances and consent forms stating that all the drugs were safe and legal.

Did Trengove run to the AFL or his manager when he received his AOD? No, because he trusted his club doctor.

If you're at the doctor's clinic and he says "ok, I'll need to inject you with this safe and legal substance", would you stop and take the vial of liquid to a lab to have it tested to make sure it's safe? Or would you trust a trained expert to do their job and not be lying to you?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I don't think it's ever been said that the nacho cheese drug was used to treat muscular dystrophy per say - just that it was 'owned' by a muscular dystrophy patient. And that patient alleged told people that the quesadilla liquid was an amino acid and multi-vitamin supplement.


Perhaps, but I'd like to see that charge stand up when all the evidence is circumstantial at best, and you have other circumstantial evidence (photographs, player testimony and spreadsheets) to the contrary, and even if it was the 'bad' thymodulin it was given to players under the assurances that it was a safe and legal drug.

I guess all those seminars, hotlines and info they are given about following the ASADA code just go out the window then.

None of them checked.

Players are asked first and foremost to consult their club doctors.

They asked for multiple reassurances from the people they trusted - employees of their football club - that what was going on was a-ok. They received presentations, verbal reassurances and consent forms stating that all the drugs were safe and legal.

Did Trengove run to the AFL or his manager when he received his AOD? No, because he trusted his club doctor.

If your at the doctor's clinic and he says "ok, I'll need to inject you with this safe and legal substance", would you stop and take the vial of liquid to a lab to have it tested to make sure it's safe? Or would you trust a trained expert to do their job and not be lying to you?

Again, AFL players are told they have a strict liability as to what enters their body, and they also know that they answer to a drug code.

They didn't ask ASADA, because they trusted that Dank had outsmarted the governing body. They gambled and lost.

 

[Jobe Watson]

I guess all those seminars, hotlines and info they are given about following the ASADA code just go out the window then.

Which is why they asked for multiple reassurances.

Do you think every player that takes a substance given to him by a club doctor goes and checks with ASADA?

Carlton players were independently buying supplements online and the only person they consulted with was their club doctor.

They didn't ask ASADA, because they trusted that Dank had outsmarted the governing body. They gambled and lost.

OK. You continue to believe that players like Jobe Watson and Dustin Fletcher knowingly and willingly cheated.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

OK. You continue to believe that players like Jobe Watson and Dustin Fletcher knowingly and willingly cheated.

Yes I do believe that, 100% Jobe Watson is a cheat

 

[TerryWallet]

I guess all those seminars, hotlines and info they are given about following the ASADA code just go out the window then.

None of them checked.


Again, AFL players are told they have a strict liability as to what enters their body, and they also know that they answer to a drug code.

They didn't ask ASADA, because they trusted that Dank had outsmarted the governing body. They gambled and lost.

Sold a belief by James Hird and his hired goon.

Not a chance in hell no-one thought it was dodgy as all hell.

They were just sold the belief that "she'll be right mate, we've got this covered, now lift up that shirt".

Peer pressure? = Yes, for some

Cheating? = Yes, for some

Innocence? = No

 

[Juddafideslenko]

Players are asked first and foremost to consult their club doctors.

They asked for multiple reassurances from the people they trusted - employees of their football club - that what was going on was a-ok. They received presentations, verbal reassurances and consent forms stating that all the drugs were safe and legal.

Did Trengove run to the AFL or his manager when he received his AOD? No, because he trusted his club doctor.

If you're at the doctor's clinic and he says "ok, I'll need to inject you with this safe and legal substance", would you stop and take the vial of liquid to a lab to have it tested to make sure it's safe? Or would you trust a trained expert to do their job and not be lying to you?

If my career and livelihood depended on what was administered to me, absolutely!!!

 

[blue healer]

Which is why they asked for multiple reassurances.

Do you think every player that takes a substance given to him by a club doctor goes and checks with ASADA?

Carlton players were buying supplements online and the only person they consulted with was their club doctor.


OK. You continue to believe that players like Jobe Watson and Dustin Fletcher knowingly and willingly cheated.

If you were told that you were embarking on a program designed to go right to the edge and suddenly were getting more injections than a $2 hooker would you not be just a tad concerned about the legality of what you were doing?

I'd be interested to know how you'd also feel (after going through this program and then the darkest day in Aust sport) when you asked about your personal records only to be told "that there were none kept, we don't know exactly what you were given but we're confident that we'll be in a good place when this is finished".

 

[Jobe Watson]

If you were told that you were embarking on a program designed to go right to the edge and suddenly were getting more injections than a $2 hooker would you not be just a tad concerned about the legality of what you were doing?

They were, hence the consent forms and presentations.

I'd be interested to know how you'd also feel (after going through this program and then the darkest day in Aust sport) when you asked about your personal records only to be told "that there were none kept, we don't know exactly what you were given but we're confident that we'll be in a good place when this is finished".

The players don't seem too concerned.

 

[Thetruth14]

Essendon are going to be rubbed out for an extended period - The AFLPA is seeking counsel in relation a class action against the club and also on best practice to support a playing group about to be kicked to the curb for an extended period.

 

[blue healer]

They were, hence the consent forms and presentations.


The players don't seem too concerned.

The very consent forms that may bury them.

Of course the players don't seem concerned, what options do they have?

The only way they may get out of this with skin intact is if they stick fat and present a united front. There are also stories now beginning to emerge about the toll this is taking on the players.

 

[Thetruth14]

On that - Ben Howlett was not "rested"

Will come out in the wash soon enough.

 

[Jobe Watson]

Of course the players don't seem concerned, what options do they have?

The only way they may get out of this with skin intact is if they stick fat and present a united front. There are also stories now beginning to emerge about the toll this is taking on the players.

Well of course. Going through 18 months of constant media attention, being door-stopped after training, having your club sanctioned by the AFL, having the saga brought up in every interview you do, having your name dragged through the mud (in the case of 12 players) - it will eventually take its toll.

 

[blue healer]

Well of course. Going through 18 months of constant media attention, being door-stopped after training, having your club sanctioned by the AFL, having the saga brought up in every interview you do, having your name dragged through the mud (in the case of 12 players) - it will eventually take its toll.

Not to mention that the club are unable to specifically guarantee that no illegal substances were used or even show them documentation of their individual programme.

 

[Munich]

If you're at the doctor's clinic and he says "ok, I'll need to inject you with this safe and legal substance", would you stop and take the vial of liquid to a lab to have it tested to make sure it's safe? Or would you trust a trained expert to do their job and not be lying to you?

It's irrelevant how far they went to ensure the drugs were above board.

Bottom line is they allowed these dubious substances into their bodies and will have to suffer the consequences.

 

[Thetruth14]

Well of course. Going through 18 months of constant media attention, being door-stopped after training, having your club sanctioned by the AFL, having the saga brought up in every interview you do, having your name dragged through the mud (in the case of 12 players) - it will eventually take its toll.

Causality.

I hate to say this - But Essendon as a club is rotten.

Nothing more than a hobbo junky lair. One man has absolutely torn the fabric of your club apart and he has been paid to think about what he's done?

There is something fundamentally wrong with Essendon, it used to be a club that was respected.

It is a club that stands for nothing.

 

[Jobe Watson]

It's irrelevant how far they went to ensure the drugs were above board.

Not entirely.

Causality.

I hate to say this - But Essendon as a club is rotten.

Nothing more than a hobbo junky lair. One man has absolutely torn the fabric of your club apart and he has been paid to think about what he's done?

There is something fundamentally wrong with Essendon, it used to be a club that was respected.

It is a club that stands for nothing.

OK Pav.

 

[PieBeast]

AFL's charges sheet alone leaves no doubt to what type of Thymosin was used, not a chance AFL will bail Essendon out.

And I'm looking forward to Essendon using a poxy pic, Jobe's "testimony" of Dank telling him it was the good Thymosin and backdated spreadsheets standing up against mountains and mountains of damning evidence.

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