Should the AFL allow Essendon to play if charged with doping ?

[blue healer]

If you're at the doctor's clinic and he says "ok, I'll need to inject you with this safe and legal substance", would you stop and take the vial of liquid to a lab to have it tested to make sure it's safe? Or would you trust a trained expert to do their job and not be lying to you?

I probably would trust the doctor because I'm not a professional sportsperson. But I would expect him to tell me what it was, what it was going to do for me (eg side effects "can I drink etc") but above all if, sometime in the future I was to become concerned about the safety of the product, I would expect him to be able to show my medical history.

 

[Munich]

Not entirely.

Ok mate.

As Journey once said "don't stop believing"

 

[SunshineBoy]

Interesting that there is no mention of show causes for AOd9604 despite Watsons admission.

How can that be?

Least of your problems, neighhhh neighhhh

 

[Jobe Watson]

I probably would trust the doctor because I'm not a professional sportsperson. But I would expect him to tell me what it was, what it was going to do for me (eg side effects "can I drink etc")

And how do you know he's not lying?

but above all if, sometime in the future I was to become concerned about the safety of the product, I would expect him to be able to show my medical history.

Like, a spreadsheet showing which supplements were given to which players and the amount that was given, which was later leaked to the media?

But again, how do you know he's not lying, by saying he's giving you one thing and injecting you with another?

 

[SunshineBoy]

What integrity? If you spend any time out of Australia, you realise we are considered sooks about other countries doping, yet constantly make excuses for our own.

If you can find a vid of the press conference that Warnie got busted, you will hear the comments about it. We must be the only country that has let off an olympic athlete for saying their coach gave them the banned drugs (Sam Reily)

We are Australian it's only the Chinese, Koreans, Eastern Europeans that take peds

 

[SunshineBoy]

Why not just rely on Dank's?

Nick McKenzie: Thymosin Beta 4 – why was that used in Essendon players given there is an opinion from a doctor or researcher and other scientists that its effects are uncertain? (note: The AFL believes it has a strong circumstantial case that TB-4 was used on players.)

Stephen Dank: That's not totally true Nick because, with all due respect, right, there is good data – very good data – that supports Thymosin Beta 4 in the immune system.

NM: OK, why give it to all Essendon players if only some of them had colds and flu?

SD: Well, the point is that there is a degree of immunosuppression after a game or a hard training week, right. Often times the ability to back up next week is decreased by the hit on the immune system.

NM: Did you see any indications in Essendon players that it actually helped them?

SD: Well apart from the fact they won 11 out of their first 14, right, and we did regular bloods [blood tests] . . . at the end of the day I was very happy with the science, I was very happy after working a long time in football, right, that there are periods of malaise which are possibly related to sub-clinical flus and sub-clinical colds, right, which can affect performance. When we want to be honest, Nick, how much performance data is there out there on Actovegin [calf's blood extract)]

NM: There's a lot, isn't there?

SD: No there's not! So, you know, you've got to extrapolate from the science.

NM: How often were Essendon players taking Thymosin Beta 4?

SD: [Explains the dosage level but asks that this be not published].

NM: ASADA has just released on its website that Thymosin Beta 4 is prohibited in all routes and out of competition.

SD: Well, that must have just only come in this year and I will get someone to speak to ASADA about that. That's just mind-blowing.

NM: Thymosin Beta 4, they must have just banned that.

SD: I think they've only just put that in to back up their case.



Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-science-of-stephen-dank-20130823-2shhd.html#ixzz31bqBmK2k

Inconvenient truth, public statement and all that, hard to go back on and say you didn't mean it after all the questions were clear, concise no ambiguity

 

[jenny61_99]

If the comments in the article are true then possibly, given I'm sure they're keen to show some output for a 15 month investigation.

I'm not sure how they can be more sure than a balance of probability if no records were kept and players don't know what they received.

Oh ok, so they are only issuing show cause notices so it looks as though they did "something"?

 

[SunshineBoy]

Oh ok, so they are only issuing show cause notices so it looks as though they did "something"?

It's a conspiracy to deprive essendon what us rightly theirs , to be our overlords.

 

[MaddAdam]

Let them play until found guilty, at which time all points stripped and if a team lost to them, that team awarded the points.

 

[yaco55]

I was quite pleased with this article.

Seeing that Grant Baker is a mouthpiece for EFC, if this is the best they've got to polish the turd with, then it is pretty bleak down at Tulla.

What happened

Have you lost faith in Caro and Patrick Smith ?

 

[yaco55]

On that - Ben Howlett was not "rested"

Will come out in the wash soon enough.

Dont forget about Paul Chapman and Dustin Fletcher being rested.

 

[MagpieJo]

Players are asked first and foremost to consult their club doctors.

They asked for multiple reassurances from the people they trusted - employees of their football club - that what was going on was a-ok. They received presentations, verbal reassurances and consent forms stating that all the drugs were safe and legal.

Did Trengove run to the AFL or his manager when he received his AOD? No, because he trusted his club doctor.

If you're at the doctor's clinic and he says "ok, I'll need to inject you with this safe and legal substance", would you stop and take the vial of liquid to a lab to have it tested to make sure it's safe? Or would you trust a trained expert to do their job and not be lying to you?

I'd want to know why I need a consent form in that circumstance, and I ask someone OUTSIDE the club, but apparently, nobody did. end of story. Guilty your Honour

 

[MagpieJo]

Unfortunately it's completely irrelevant what the players thought they took

I would have a lot more sympathy for the players if before starting the program they had:
A) Consulted their managers
B) Consulted the AFLPA
C) Consulted the AFL
D) Consulted ASADA
E) Any of the above

I think the lack of any of those actions by the Essendon players indicates that they thought they were doing something dodgy

Hammer, nail, head = coffin

 

[MagpieJo]

Well of course. Going through 18 months of constant media attention, being door-stopped after training, having your club sanctioned by the AFL, having the saga brought up in every interview you do, having your name dragged through the mud (in the case of 12 players) - it will eventually take its toll.

Who's faults that? Would not have happened but for your clubs actions.

They should sue, but the club screwed them right there again, with those signatures.

You wanna feel sorry for the players? Blame your club, not the media, not anyone else but Essendon and the supposedly duped players. Dank was already under a cloud, but nobody checked

 

[lones37]

Exactly, any Essendon supporters should be filthy on Hird and the club.

Everyone knows they cheated, the circumstances do not really matter whether Dank did this or not.

Hird employed him and told him to keep it quiet...not hard to figure out why.

They deserve everything they will cop, just like anyone else would in the same circumstance.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Who's faults that? Would not have happened but for your clubs actions.

They should sue, but the club screwed them right there again, with those signatures.

You wanna feel sorry for the players? Blame your club, not the media, not anyone else but Essendon and the supposedly duped players. Dank was already under a cloud, but nobody checked

Not only that was openly embraced

 

[SunshineBoy]

For what reason does anyone think Dank was sacked?

the OFFAL got wind of the shenanigans, and quietly asked Essendon to move him on, thinking they could control any flack, When Vlad found out that there was a clandestine Police operation , he then warned the club that the jig is up destroy all documents.

The OFFAL is complicit, why attack ASADA why not attack the Essendon football Club and the OFFAL for letting tis happen?

Why has Vlad pulled the pin? ITs going to be impossible for Vlad to nail the cheats carcass to the wall when it transpires that they knew, and make no mistake the OFFAL knew.

What they didn't know was the Feds where onto them.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

If they want to make the AFL. A laughing stock go right ahead and let them play after being found to be drug cheats.

Me I won't attend if we play essendon even in a final and certainly won't watch there matches on tele. I know I can't do much as an individual but my hope if enough of the footy going public likewise shun the AFL's tolerance for drugs in our sport.

I would also put forward the Idea that even if the AFL allows players convicted of being drug cheats to play, That the EFC still has a moral obligation to drop said players to the reserve's for a period of time they should have been suspended for.

Clubs have the same if not higher obligation to protect the reputation of the comp then the corporate afl stooges.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Well of course. Going through 18 months of constant media attention, being door-stopped after training, having your club sanctioned by the AFL, having the saga brought up in every interview you do, having your name dragged through the mud (in the case of 12 players) - it will eventually take its toll.

Easily fixed....fess up 15 months ago, media scrutiny gone 24 month ban almost over. save the million made up by members blindly ticking the extra $50 on their membership and given to James(mokbel) hird and indeed the club would have been in a better place then where they now find them selves.

 

[Armchair Critic]

Players are asked first and foremost to consult their club doctors.

They asked for multiple reassurances from the people they trusted - employees of their football club - that what was going on was a-ok. They received presentations, verbal reassurances and consent forms stating that all the drugs were safe and legal.

Did Trengove run to the AFL or his manager when he received his AOD? No, because he trusted his club doctor.

If you're at the doctor's clinic and he says "ok, I'll need to inject you with this safe and legal substance", would you stop and take the vial of liquid to a lab to have it tested to make sure it's safe? Or would you trust a trained expert to do their job and not be lying to you?

Yes they are, the only drug Dr Reid approved listed on the consent forms was AOD9604, he approved no Thymosin injections, I don't think the players consulted their club Dr at all.

 

[MightyHawks]

Players are asked first and foremost to consult their club doctors.

They asked for multiple reassurances from the people they trusted - employees of their football club - that what was going on was a-ok. They received presentations, verbal reassurances and consent forms stating that all the drugs were safe and legal.

Did Trengove run to the AFL or his manager when he received his AOD? No, because he trusted his club doctor.

If you're at the doctor's clinic and he says "ok, I'll need to inject you with this safe and legal substance", would you stop and take the vial of liquid to a lab to have it tested to make sure it's safe? Or would you trust a trained expert to do their job and not be lying to you?

I'm not a professional athlete so I'd take the injection that my doctor tells me to

But in the case of being asked to take injections at an offsite clinic when Doc Reid isn't present, knowing that if something is wrong I'll cop a two year ban which may end my career I'd take the Zaharakis option

 

[Baldur]

The AFL will have enough problems justify allowing them to player after the show couse notices are issued. In fact I have no doubt they are demanding that the issuing of show clause notices be kept secert until a finding is entered in the registar. But the AFL would be mega stupid if they really attempted to allow the players to continue to play once it got out.

Recall the loud BOOS when Watson played. If Essendon runs onto the field with several players who have been entered on the registar as drug cheats then the roof of Etihad will lift off with the chanting of CHEATS CHEATS CHEATS. Fights will begin in the crowd as faithful Essendon fans hear the people beside them chanting CHEATS CHEATS CHEATS. Some players, hello taggers, would be unable to resist bad mouthing their Essendon opponents, whispering fithy druggie cheat. Fights would begin on the field. Violence feeding violence, officals losing control. people begin being hurt, panic begins. Panic among a crowd of 40,000 plus is deadly.

Sure this nightmare may not happen, it may not even be likely, but it could happen.

So NO

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Which is why they asked for multiple reassurances.

Do you think every player that takes a substance given to him by a club doctor goes and checks with ASADA?

Carlton players were independently buying supplements online and the only person they consulted with was their club doctor.


OK. You continue to believe that players like Jobe Watson and Dustin Fletcher knowingly and willingly cheated.

Knowingly and willingly cheated? No.

They did however knowingly and willingly take part in a an injection program like nothing that they had ever encountered before, and although all the alarm bells were ringing decided to just go along with it all and not use the hotline to ASADA, check online or remove themselves or their teammates from the program at any point.

You'd have to be pretty gullible to think that they had not an ounce of query going through their heads when continuously being jabbed offsite, and all in secret.

"Whatever it takes".

They gambled and lost.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

The AFL will have enough problems justify allowing them to player after the show couse notices are issued. In fact I have no doubt they are demanding that the issuing of show clause notices be kept secert until a finding is entered in the registar. But the AFL would be mega stupid if they really attempted to allow the players to continue to play once it got out.

Recall the loud BOOS when Watson played. If Essendon runs onto the field with several players who have been entered on the registar as drug cheats then the roof of Etihad will lift off with the chanting of CHEATS CHEATS CHEATS. Fights will begin in the crowd as faithful Essendon fans hear the people beside them chanting CHEATS CHEATS CHEATS. Some players, hello taggers, would be unable to resist bad mouthing their Essendon opponents, whispering fithy druggie cheat. Fights would begin on the field. Violence feeding violence, officals losing control. people begin being hurt, panic begins. Panic among a crowd of 40,000 plus is deadly.

Sure this nightmare may not happen, it may not even be likely, but it could happen.

So NO

steady on mate

 

[BigJoeD_]

I'm not a professional athlete so I'd take the injection that my doctor tells me to

So would any player - Brent Guerra rings a bell