Soft players

[jonbe54]

This discussion is really getting difficult to truly comprehend. Jonbe54 and TFB are doing my head in to the point where I no longer understand what your argument is about. Perhaps it is time for both of you to declare a stalemate position and give up. What is an OOF? Why do posters use acronyms that are not understood by ordinary people? Surely there is middle ground in between the extremities of your arguments on which you can agree.

I already have declined to debate TFB further manic, try to keep up old son lol

 

[Mr Cannons]

This discussion is really getting difficult to truly comprehend. Jonbe54 and TFB are doing my head in to the point where I no longer understand what your argument is about. Perhaps it is time for both of you to declare a stalemate position and give up. What is an OOF? Why do posters use acronyms that are not understood by ordinary people? Surely there is middle ground in between the extremities of your arguments on which you can agree.

OUT ON THE FULL!!! We see far too many of these

 

[jonbe54]

I dont define hard tackling as being a hard player, it just means you're good at tackling, thats why teams practice tackling because everyone can do it, not everyone has the courage to take a hit for the team, if you're a squib you're a squib

So you would say that if there is a pack of players milling around fighting for the ball, nobody should fade out 5 or 10 meters for an option? That would make for slow footy don't you think?

You see it in every game, some of the hardest players in the game do it regularly and get deserved praise for it. Not everyone can be Luke Ball in the team ( it would get pretty crowded at the coal face if they were ). And luke needs outlet options, so yes I agree tackling is an integral and exciting part of our game but its not the be all and end all, the press is dead and attacking options are now on the table.

 

[Mr Cannons]

So you would say that if there is a pack of players milling around fighting for the ball, nobody should fade out 5 or 10 meters for an option? That would make for slow footy don't you think?

You see it in every game, some of the hardest players in the game do it regularly and get deserved praise for it. Not everyone can be Luke Ball in the team ( it would get pretty crowded at the coal face if they were ). And luke needs outlet options, so yes I agree tackling is an integral and exciting part of our game but its not the be all and end all, the press is dead and attacking options are now on the table.

Umm i said that tackling hard doesn't make you a hard player.
I think what you are trying to say is that every outside player is labelled as being soft, which I havent seen anyone in the thread say, Didak was an outside player but people didnt call him soft because he was the one receiving hand balls and setting up the play, he got called soft because when it was his turn to intercept a pass and get crunched he would regularly pull out of it

 

[jonbe54]

Umm i said that tackling hard doesn't make you a hard player.
I think what you are trying to say is that every outside player is labelled as being soft, which I havent seen anyone in the thread say, Didak was an outside player but people didnt call him soft because he was the one receiving hand balls and setting up the play, he got called soft because when it was his turn to intercept a pass and get crunched he would regularly pull out of it

Not quite what I meant, I'll try again to be as clear as my ordinary writing skills will allow.

Fistly and most importantly I love the physical contests that our game regularly throws up and my heart swells with pride when players take the hit or stand in the way of a leading Johnno Brown (death wish city there ).

OK now keeping that in mind I despise those posters who casually label a player soft or trade bait who doesn't take every opportunity to tackle. Its an attitude that seems to elevate the tackle above the game and reject any player that isn't a tackling machine.

There ARE regular posters with this veiw and its them I have a problem with.

 

[loki04]

It is expected that when the ball is in dispute, a player will do his best to get it. If he shirks it, it's soft. If someone is about to take off past you with the ball, regardless of the score, you attempt to tackle. It's called competitive spirit.
You start picking and choosing your battles because of the score, it seeps into other games.
Slightly off topic.
The last game of 2011, Geelong skip ahead and the Pies show little interest in getting back. MM says the game was gone by half time so there is no use busting a boiler to try and get it back. 94 points was a tough position to come back from a few weeks later. Word out of the Collingwood camp was when the going got tough, a few of the boys were picking and choosing their battles.

Bingo, it creeps in at the worst of times usually in big important games.

There is a reason the 01-04 Lions side dominated, much of it was to do with physicality of the team even there outside players hit in hard when required.

 

[TheFreshBanana]

This discussion is really getting difficult to truly comprehend. Jonbe54 and TFB are doing my head in to the point where I no longer understand what your argument is about. Perhaps it is time for both of you to declare a stalemate position and give up. What is an OOF? Why do posters use acronyms that are not understood by ordinary people? Surely there is middle ground in between the extremities of your arguments on which you can agree.

My statement position was my first post.

It is not only admirable but a necessity to be hard at the ball. Just because we do not play at AFL level, does not mean we don't have the right to voice our criticism when a player does not meet this standard.

 

[Mr Cannons]

Not quite what I meant, I'll try again to be as clear as my ordinary writing skills will allow.

Fistly and most importantly I love the physical contests that our game regularly throws up and my heart swells with pride when players take the hit or stand in the way of a leading Johnno Brown (death wish city there ).

OK now keeping that in mind I despise those posters who casually label a player soft or trade bait who doesn't take every opportunity to tackle. Its an attitude that seems to elevate the tackle above the game and reject any player that isn't a tackling machine.

There ARE regular posters with this veiw and its them I have a problem with.

Im not disagreeing with ya or trying to be a smart ass, but ive never heard of anyone saying we should trade anyone or call anyone soft just because they dont tackle alot.

 

[TheFreshBanana]

Im not disagreeing with ya or trying to be a smart ass, but ive never heard of anyone saying we should trade anyone or call anyone soft just because they dont tackle alot.

That's not really the point.

The confusion is that, tackling doesn't aggravate any sort of injury, moreso than any other basic football action.

 

[Knightmare]

Soft doesn't always relate to how they play on field. It can certainly.

But I'd tend to apply the term more to those who don't push themselves in training to improve.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

OK now keeping that in mind I despise those posters who casually label a player soft or trade bait who doesn't take every opportunity to tackle. Its an attitude that seems to elevate the tackle above the game and reject any player that isn't a tackling machine.

There ARE regular posters with this veiw and its them I have a problem with.

Whilst I can't speak for people on the forum I think typically what frustrates people is when a player attempts the tackle however it is a fairly weak effort (ie sticking the arm out in front of a charging player instead of putting the body into it). In fairness to players at times they are simply wrong footed however there are games where tackles just don't stick and a portion of that is attributable to the players mindset.

If opposition teams feel they can burst through tackles if they go in harder then Collingwood then we will get carved up. As another mentioned, when you play football you get embarrassed when someone from your team puts in a poor effort. Every player needs to buy into the mantra of when its your turn you go - 10 goals up or 10 goals down doesn't matter, though I agree you don't need to be unnecessarily reckless.

In respect to criticism to Didak - the preservation mindset with him didn't only enter it when we had a clear lead and were heading into finals, we could be 5 points down and desperate for a victory and odds on bet he would do his best to avoid getting crunched, this is why he was justifiably criticised throughout his career. Was still a great player however will have the tag as one of the softer players of the last 10 years.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

So you are saying you hated the way Didak got free so often and provided the perfect link going into the forward line when fit and in form??

I think not. . .

So how do you imagine he managed to be in those positions to facilitate so brilliantly? Oh of course he got free so often by tackling everying that moved.

YES Didak's preoccupation with staying free of the contest did cost us regularly

BUT

That same preoccupation created many goals and there were some few games that he won for us off his own boot by being what he was. A 'soft' outside player with freakish skills that ANY football team on the planet would welcome with open arms if fit and sharp.

Perhaps you'd like to have a shot at Daicos? I watched his entire career and you could never in your wildest dreams call him anything other than outside, that includes his best early years playing in the middle.

Players like Daicos and Didak create their own categories because of their unique skill sets and irreplaceable value to the team.

Don't think he needs to be a tackling machine however I wouldn't have minded him stepping it up a notch or two. Can definitely be an outside player without the soft label, outside players need to make judgement calls - need to back in the inside workhorses however cannot constantly rely on them to do everything. You need to put in the effort when required, just how I expect Luke Ball to push himself on the spread. If an inside player said they were too tired to run once we win possession and help spread the defence then they would get told to get fitter.

 

[Maggie5]

Not quite what I meant, I'll try again to be as clear as my ordinary writing skills will allow.

Fistly and most importantly I love the physical contests that our game regularly throws up and my heart swells with pride when players take the hit or stand in the way of a leading Johnno Brown (death wish city there ).

OK now keeping that in mind I despise those posters who casually label a player soft or trade bait who doesn't take every opportunity to tackle. Its an attitude that seems to elevate the tackle above the game and reject any player that isn't a tackling machine.

There ARE regular posters with this veiw and its them I have a problem with.

I think that this is where you are confusing. doubt many people consider players soft when tackling. have never seen this, tackling is second nature.
I considered players in the past as being soft not going for a mark for fear of being crunched, picking the ball up from the ground etc.
Sure we need the Pendleburys (outside) but he has also shown great courage and that is what it is.
I must admit I can't recall the posters you are referring to.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Yes you definitely need your seagulls but when that seagull causes fights, the play stops, there are no chips for him yet he still skirts the outside of the pack?

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I don't believe every player has to be "life or death, body on the line" courageous, but there's no doubt there are definitely some soft players out there. Not A LOT of them, but there are a few legitimate cowards.

Hell, I'd be one of them if I was playing in the AFL. Used to be a great forward pocket as a result. Never went in and roved the packs like a pro.

 

[Checkside35]

Daics was outside but when it was his turn to go, there were no backward steps. Even when in the middle, I don't ever remember him shirking it. One of the great myths was that he was soft. Any opposition supporter who hated him says he never went near a hard ball. In the days of highlights packages and at most seeing him play twice a year, I don't think they qualify to comment.

 

[loki04]

Daics was outside but when it was his turn to go, there were no backward steps. Even when in the middle, I don't ever remember him shirking it. One of the great myths was that he was soft. Any opposition supporter who hated him says he never went near a hard ball. In the days of highlights packages and at most seeing him play twice a year, I don't think they qualify to comment.

It's much like Dale Thomas he is an outside type but cracks in just as hard as Ball when he has to.

Early days Thomas was purely outside became a much more desperate player at the contested footy by 2010 but oppo fans still call him soft due to body shape and being a line breaker.

 

[Checkside35]

It's much like Dale Thomas he is an outside type but cracks in just as hard as Ball when he has to.

Early days Thomas was purely outside became a much more desperate player at the contested footy by 2010 but oppo fans still call him soft due to body shape and being a line breaker.

And blokes like Garlett find themselves in a position to go, they find a way to shirk the physical contest. Add L Jetta, L Thomas and a few others to that list. I liked forward like Chappy because he did both. Look out when Ablett plays forward more often. I'm tipping that he will become the best small forward we've seen for a long time, in terms of damage on the scoreboard and relentless attack on the ball. Not a huge call because he's an out and out gun but I wouldn't make the same call for other mid guns.

 

[loki04]

And blokes like Garlett find themselves in a position to go, they find a way to shirk the physical contest. Add L Jetta, L Thomas and a few others to that list. I liked forward like Chappy because he did both. Look out when Ablett plays forward more often. I'm tipping that he will become the best small forward we've seen for a long time, in terms of damage on the scoreboard and relentless attack on the ball. Not a huge call because he's an out and out gun but I wouldn't make the same call for other mid guns.

L.Jetta can short step it a bit.

Seen L.Thomas crack in he just is a bit of a diver knows how to milk tyhe free's, hell he's even put Reidy on his arse.

Rioli is a better example of doing both has the magic of L.Davis but not afraid to get in the thick of it.

Ablett has gotten better with physicality as he has aged early and mid career he was actually a bit susceptible to rough house tactics, watch the 08 GF he gets a heap of it but his disposal goes to the crapper due to Hawks physically targeting every time they are near him.

Why I rate the Lions team higher then Geelong, Geelong have a proven history of buckling to overtly physical teams. Lions would go toe to toe with any side who tried what the 08 Hawks did.

 

[jathanas]

One man's "soft" is another man's "highly developed survival instinct".

I have a huge man-crush on Mr Luke Ball, and it isn't because of his pretty face. I love his attack on the ball, and the self-denial on display for all to see.

That doesn't mean that I have no respect for the less aggressive players.

Courage in the AFL takes shape in many forms; the winger that keeps running when he has cramped twice already, an injured player working through pain, an attacking player sacrificing his game to play a defensive role. All should be appreciated.

I agree 100% with all who have posted that an aggressive, physical style of play is a competitive advantage.

 

[Old Spice]

You need your receivers and burst players but a player does need to go hard when they are not in an offensive position.

When we compare ourselves to players, sure, we don't make the grade, but what we are talking about is hardness within a pool of talent, i.e. the AFL. Players need to be hard defensively, it's that simple when players are so skilled and athletic.

You let a player go and in 5-10 seconds the ball is in the fwd line. You can't allow time, that gives you space.

 

[jmac70]

This debate would be more relevent if lazy football players were being discussed.

 

[MyManLynch]

This debate would be more relevent if lazy football players were being discussed.

But what if he is lazy & soft?

 

[Kirby]

But what if he is lazy & soft?

Like after a dozen beers and a good porno?

 

[MyManLynch]

Like after a dozen beers and a good porno?

I cannot multi task these days.