Some Questions For Atheists

[Farmer Palmer]

Why must you speak like a schoolkid regurgitating the first philosophy he's read?

Philosophy? Please……it’s not even close to any coherent system of thought, its B grade TV martial arts clichés at best.

I challenge you, read it critically, it takes an effort and you do tend to gloss over the non sequiturs and silly contradictions playing dressups as something profound and at the end you find Frogen is not saying anything at all.

Or at least nothing that makes any sense to anyone literate and nothing at all that imparts any meaningful information.

 

[Roylion]

Agnostics don't believe in god, therefore they are atheists. Just don't have the balls to admit it.

That's not correct.

An agnostic is someone of the view that hold that nothing is known, or is likely to be known, of the existance of God or of anything beyond material phenomena. An agnostic does not necessarily deny the existence of God (as atheists do) but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not it or they exist, as defined. Many agnostics (as I do) therefore live their lives without concern for observing the worship of an unknowable god and do not concern themselves with attempting to 'know' God. If some type of supernatural being does exist then I have no knowledge of the nature of such a being or whether such a Being exists at all

Agnostics will most likely treat, with considerable disbelief and incredulity, those who claim to definitely 'know' that there is a god or gods through their own 'experiences' or through the reading of a 'Holy' text or other works. As such they will often reject 'religion' in its various forms.

However an agnostic will also not claim there is definitely no god or gods, as they believe that this conclusion is also unknowable.

I generally define 'god' in two ways:

- an immortal supernatural being or deity that is the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.

or alternatively
- any supernatural being (deity), worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force.

In both the above definitions God or 'the gods' are regarded as transcendent, meaning that God or 'the gods' is / are outside space and time. Therefore, God is eternal and unable to be changed by earthly forces or anything else within its creation.

Therefore as God is transcendent, anything beyond material phenomena is unknowable by humans.

As such, I will not live my life worrying about god/gods, religion or other possible phenomena such as the 'afterlife'. They are unknowable.

 

[fairdinkum]

Philosophy? Please……it’s not even close to any coherent system of thought, its B grade TV martial arts clichés at best.

I challenge you, read it critically, it takes an effort and you do tend to gloss over the non sequiturs and silly contradictions playing dressups as something profound and at the end you find Frogen is not saying anything at all.

Or at least nothing that makes any sense to anyone literate and nothing at all that imparts any meaningful information.

Like I said - it is gobbledygook.

 

[BomberGal]

Philosophy? Please……it’s not even close to any coherent system of thought, its B grade TV martial arts clichés at best.

I challenge you, read it critically, it takes an effort and you do tend to gloss over the non sequiturs and silly contradictions playing dressups as something profound and at the end you find Frogen is not saying anything at all.

Or at least nothing that makes any sense to anyone literate and nothing at all that imparts any meaningful information.

Re-read what I said.

Think about how a schoolboy regurgitating his first philosophy would sound.

Lots of big words that in the end mean nothing, but at least he thinks he sounds smart.

 

[BomberGal]

a long post that would annoy people to quote.

Then what do you call atheists who are simply saying they choose not to partake in the beliefs of most of the rest of the world?

I don't claim to "know" there is no God. I just choose not to believe the propositions of religious people!

 

[Roylion]

Then what do you call atheists who are simply saying they choose not to partake in the beliefs of most of the rest of the world?

I don't claim to "know" there is no God. I just choose not to believe the propositions of religious people!

Then I would call you 'agnostic'. I also choose not to believe the propositions of religious people, because they cannot know whether a god (or gods), as I defined 'god' above, exists.

You don't know either and by the definition given of god as a supernatural being that is transcendent (outside space and time), you cannot know.

I don't know or claim to know the nature of 'god' either. Those of a religious nature also dont know, despite their claims to the contrary.

 

[DaveW]

I don't agree with this either. I'd say I'm an agnostic, in the sense that I don't believe in the god/s of the major religions, but I'm not prepared to say there isn't a god or gods. There might be, I just don't know. I think that's the key difference between agnosticism and atheism. If you're going to dismiss agnostics, then doesn't your dogmatic adherence to atheism make you just as 'bad' as religious fundamentalists?

Are you agnostic about the existence of Santa Claus, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy as well?

If your answer is no, then doesn't your tooth fairy atheism make you a dogmatic fundamentalist?

 

[Richo83]

That's not correct.

An agnostic is someone of the view that hold that nothing is known, or is likely to be known, of the existance of God or of anything beyond material phenomena. An agnostic does not necessarily deny the existence of God (as atheists do) but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not it or they exist, as defined. Many agnostics (as I do) therefore live their lives without concern for observing the worship of an unknowable god and do not concern themselves with attempting to 'know' God. If some type of supernatural being does exist then I have no knowledge of the nature of such a being or whether such a Being exists at all

Agnostics will most likely treat, with considerable disbelief and incredulity, those who claim to definitely 'know' that there is a god or gods through their own 'experiences' or through the reading of a 'Holy' text or other works. As such they will often reject 'religion' in its various forms.

However an agnostic will also not claim there is definitely no god or gods, as they believe that this conclusion is also unknowable.

I generally define 'god' in two ways:

- an immortal supernatural being or deity that is the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.

or alternatively
- any supernatural being (deity), worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force.

In both the above definitions God or 'the gods' are regarded as transcendent, meaning that God or 'the gods' is / are outside space and time. Therefore, God is eternal and unable to be changed by earthly forces or anything else within its creation.

Therefore as God is transcendent, anything beyond material phenomena is unknowable by humans.

As such, I will not live my life worrying about god/gods, religion or other possible phenomena such as the 'afterlife'. They are unknowable.

Yes.

Remember though that you can be atheist and agnostic at the same time. The position that while you disbelieve (effectively being godless) you recognize that you cannot really ever know if you are correct with your atheist belief or the knowledge of god's existence. Effectively, you disbelieve, but establish that you disbelieve, but you still don't know for sure.

This is weak atheism, very close to strong agnosticism and often mistaken for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism here's a better version of what I was trying to say.

I have to say though, non religious agnostics (the most common type of agnostics) live a life pretty much similar to atheists though, godless. Since agnostics don't know, they are not going to act in any religious or godly way. Atheists act in a secular world, it is very common for agnostics to act so also. This is one of the reasons why they are confused with each other.

 

[sen entertainment bloke]

That's not correct.

An agnostic is someone of the view that hold that nothing is known, or is likely to be known, of the existance of God or of anything beyond material phenomena.

Therefore as God is transcendent, anything beyond material phenomena is unknowable by humans.

You could get more intellectually flawed than defining god in a conclusion after having begun with god may not exist. Not sure how much, though.

 

[Jason Voorhees]

1) If God does not exist then we all get the same feat. Mother Theresa ends up as the same Hitler, and 6 million bugs being killed is equivalent to the holocaust as life is not worth anything.

100% correct my good fellow. Those athiests suggesting otherwise have their snout in the smorgasbord and are trying to pick & choose to suit their empty little lives. Life is indeed meaningless in a meaningless universe if you are truly an athiest - and no matter how deeply you think you think, it won't get you anywhere if we are all in a void.

 

[Richo83]

Then what do you call atheists who are simply saying they choose not to partake in the beliefs of most of the rest of the world?

I don't claim to "know" there is no God. I just choose not to believe the propositions of religious people!

I'd just call you a non-religious person. Unless you take the position of a disbelief in god, or being godless (without god) you aren't an atheist. I am both which is why I classify myself as atheist, I believe that and live as there is no god. However I do recognize the possibility of god, but I have developed a position that if something can't be proven, like anything else you should take your previous position of disbelief.

Here's a fantastic analysis of what atheism means: http://www.evilbible.com/Definition_of_Atheism_1.htm

Here's a good encyclopedia analysis of atheism:
http://www.reference.com/search?q=atheism

It sounds like roylion is truly an agnostic of the typical example, case.

 

[evo]

You don't know either and by the definition given of god as a supernatural being that is transcendent (outside space and time), you cannot know.

This is an absolute claim in itself.

How do you know nothing can be known outside of material phenomena?

 

[Qsaint]

Yes.

Remember though that you can be atheist and agnostic at the same time. The position that while you disbelieve (effectively being godless) you recognize that you cannot really ever know if you are correct with your atheist belief or the knowledge of god's existence. Effectively, you disbelieve, but establish that you disbelieve, but you still don't know for sure.

This is weak atheism, very close to strong agnosticism and often mistaken for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism here's a better version of what I was trying to say.

I have to say though, non religious agnostics (the most common type of agnostics) live a life pretty much similar to atheists though, godless. Since agnostics don't know, they are not going to act in any religious or godly way. Atheists act in a secular world, it is very common for agnostics to act so also. This is one of the reasons why they are confused with each other.

Thats nice fancy word smithing there. You either beleive or you don't 2 absolutes or you don't know. You can lean to one absolute but phrasing it as Agnostic Atheism is misleading.

 

[Miss BD]

Are you agnostic about the existence of Santa Claus, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy as well?

If your answer is no, then doesn't your tooth fairy atheism make you a dogmatic fundamentalist?

That's a silly interpretation of what I said and you know it. I just think it's a bit hypocritical of the poster I replied to to dismiss agnosticism so vehemently.

 

[Chase the Ace]

Life is indeed meaningless in a meaningless universe if you are truly an athiest - and no matter how deeply you think you think, it won't get you anywhere if we are all in a void.

I am an Atheist.

My life is full and rich with new experiences enhancing it all the time.
My family are dear to me, I have trust and love and give the same in return.
My mind is constantly expanding as I take on new learnings, I have friendships and relationships that daily, fill me with joy.

Explain that to me

 

[The J Dog]

Are you agnostic about the existence of Santa Claus, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy as well?

If your answer is no, then doesn't your tooth fairy atheism make you a dogmatic fundamentalist?

You would only be dogmatic if you went around asserting your opinion, with authority or arrogance, that the tooth fairy didn't exist.

You would be a fundamentalist if you maintained traditional beliefs around why the tooth fairy doesn't exist.

I suspect there are quite a few 8 year olds who are agnostic about Santa and the tooth fairy.

 

[fairdinkum]

You could get more intellectually flawed than defining god in a conclusion after having begun with god may not exist. Not sure how much, though.

Roylion defined 'God' earlier in the thread, and has stuck to discussing 'God' based on that definition since. It's probably best to read the entire thread before posting such remarks as the one you did.

 

[fairdinkum]

Thats nice fancy word smithing there. You either beleive or you don't 2 absolutes or you don't know. You can lean to one absolute but phrasing it as Agnostic Atheism is misleading.

You need to do some reading methinks.

 

[BomberGal]

That's a silly interpretation of what I said and you know it. I just think it's a bit hypocritical of the poster I replied to to dismiss agnosticism so vehemently.

Why, because you don't want to call yourself an atheist?

Some would argue it's fair to see gods in the same way as the tooth fairy. Otherwise, really, you can only be agnostic about EVERYTHING if you want to be reasonable - and that's just silly.

And why, pray tell, is it hypocritical for me to dismiss agnosticism? I just happen to think that if you don't believe in god, then you are an atheist. Agnostics do not believe in god, whether they want to admit it or not.

 

[Chief]

You really have no idea. Most people wouldn't even know who Plato or Cicero was. Even Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion spends a chapter admitting that the philosophy of the Bible has permeated western society.

More people know Ricky Martin than Beethoven.

Your point?

 

[KissStephanie]

I'd say I'm an agnostic, in the sense that I don't believe in the god/s of the major religions

I see that as being either an atheist, or the believer of a God, or some other deity, of an alternative religion.

but I'm not prepared to say there isn't a god or gods.

I don't follow. You don't believe in the God of major religions, but you aren't prepared to say there isn't a God? Maybe you're an 'agnosteist.'

There might be, I just don't know.

Nobody knows. Many people only think they know.

 

[Miss BD]

Why, because you don't want to call yourself an atheist?

Some would argue it's fair to see gods in the same way as the tooth fairy. Otherwise, really, you can only be agnostic about EVERYTHING if you want to be reasonable - and that's just silly.

And why, pray tell, is it hypocritical for me to dismiss agnosticism? I just happen to think that if you don't believe in god, then you are an atheist. Agnostics do not believe in god, whether they want to admit it or not.

Well, from previous posts, it doesn't sound like you're a true atheist either. If I genuinely knew there was no god, I would be out and proud about being an atheist. However, I don't feel I can be as certain as that.

I don't think you can compare beliefs about god to the tooth fairy, either. Everyone knows, without a shadow of a doubt, that the tooth fairy is your mum or dad replacing a lost tooth with a coin. There's no ifs or buts. However, I don't feel that you can say there is a god, or conversely, there is no god. So I really don't understand how the two can be compared.

I used the word hypocritical because I feel the tone of the discussion here has been decidedly anti-religion, often on the basis of the dogmatism of traditional faiths. On this basis, I object when people who criticise then exhibit similar dogmatism.

Agnosticism is a fair enough belief. Saying that agnostics are just atheists who don't have the guts to admit it isn't really true.

 

[Miss BD]

I see that as being either an atheist, or the believer of a God, or some other deity, of an alternative religion.I don't follow. You don't believe in the God of major religions, but you aren't prepared to say there isn't a God? Maybe you're an 'agnosteist.'Nobody knows. Many people only think they know.

Atheism is different. Atheists have the conviction to say "there is no god". I say I don't know whether there's no god. I'm not convinced there is, but then again, I'm not convinced there's not.

 

[Richo83]

I see that as being either an atheist, or the believer of a God, or some other deity, of an alternative religion.

Many agnostics don't believe, however what they couple this with not disbelieving either.

I don't follow. You don't believe in the God of major religions, but you aren't prepared to say there isn't a God?

You think religion owns god? It doesn't. Not even close. Many people refute the gods of religions but not god itself.

Maybe you're an 'agnosteist.'Nobody knows. Many people only think they know.

How do you know nobody knows? Either god exists or it doesn't, either way one side is right. God can't exist and not exist at the same time. For all we know, I could be right with my atheist theory that the universe is eternal, but the material universe was created by space, time and the scientific forces.

 

[Richo83]

Atheism is different. Atheists have the conviction to say "there is no god". I say I don't know whether there's no god. I'm not convinced there is, but then again, I'm not convinced there's not.

Yep. Agnostic you are.