Some reflections from last night

[saladin]

lonergan - played alright regularly getting the pill but i have doubts on him being best 22. lacks pace and polish for mine.

is this an april fools comment?

 

[efcboy]

Is your opening sentence from this thread a joke ?

It doesn't correspond with the rest of the thread.

well yaco i can see how you would find it contradictory - i probably should have explained further. those comments were more relating to players like gumby, myers, lucas who some were basically writing off on the back of one game. we all should know what they are capable of at their best by now...perhaps some haven't seen enough of gumby at junior/vfl level to comment.

my negativity around players such as h.slattery, lonergan and hocking etc was not based on one game - its based on having watched them for 2-3 years at both senior/vfl level and they have not changed a great deal. still lack pace, skill but i admire their effort to try. they are valuable for depth but should not feature in the best 22 if ever we can get our best lineup on the field. jetta also based on watching a lot of his games.

 

[saladin]

mate, everyone is entitled to, and should have, their own opinion. but lonergan is most certainly in our best 22, and how anyone could not see this after last year is beyond me.

still, to each their own.

 

[efcboy]

is this an april fools comment?

no - far too many are getting carried away with lonergan. there's only so many midfielders you can fit in one side...

at this stage for mine i believe watson, stanton, winderlich, prismall, mcveigh, welsh, myers, lovett, reimers, houli are all ahead of him as midfielders.

skipworth is debatable - not much in it between them.

dempsey, mcphee, nash, h.slattery, myers, lovett-murray are all better suited as small defenders ahead of him (not necessarily as players but as defenders better than lonergan for this role).

lovett, davey, monfries, reimers are all ahead of him for a small forward role

he is however ahead of dyson, jetta, zaharakis, j.williams, daniher, t.slattery, atkinson, hocking.

so with all this in mind logically i don't think he's in the best 22 given 3-4 small defenders, 3-4 small forwards, 7-8 midfielders (5 on ground, 2-3 on bench).

 

[Lance Uppercut]

no - far too many are getting carried away with lonergan. there's only so many midfielders you can fit in one side...

at this stage for mine i believe watson, stanton, winderlich, prismall, mcveigh, welsh, myers, lovett, reimers, houli are all ahead of him as midfielders.

skipworth is debatable - not much in it between them.

dempsey, mcphee, nash, h.slattery, myers, lovett-murray are all better suited as small defenders ahead of him (not necessarily as players but as defenders better than lonergan for this role).

lovett, davey, monfries, reimers are all ahead of him for a small forward role

he is however ahead of dyson, jetta, zaharakis, j.williams, daniher, t.slattery, atkinson, hocking.

so with all this in mind logically i don't think he's in the best 22 given 3-4 small defenders, 3-4 small forwards, 7-8 midfielders (5 on ground, 2-3 on bench).

you have got to be kidding me!

 

[efcboy]

you have got to be kidding me!

well you tell me which specific player(s) for a specific role (ie midfield, forward etc) you would have lonergan ahead of in my list above?

i don't doubt lonergan will play a lot of senior footy due to injuries/suspensions to others but i just can't see him in the best 22 at present.

 

[saladin]

no - far too many are getting carried away with lonergan. there's only so many midfielders you can fit in one side...

at this stage for mine i believe watson, stanton, winderlich, prismall, mcveigh, welsh, myers, lovett, reimers, houli are all ahead of him as midfielders.

skipworth is debatable - not much in it between them.

dempsey, mcphee, nash, h.slattery, myers, lovett-murray are all better suited as small defenders ahead of him (not necessarily as players but as defenders better than lonergan for this role).

lovett, davey, monfries, reimers are all ahead of him for a small forward role

he is however ahead of dyson, jetta, zaharakis, j.williams, daniher, t.slattery, atkinson, hocking.

so with all this in mind logically i don't think he's in the best 22 given 3-4 small defenders, 3-4 small forwards, 7-8 midfielders (5 on ground, 2-3 on bench).

now you ARE taking the piss! on exposed form (from last year), lonergan is clearly ahead of myers, houli, skippy, lovett and reimers as mids. when fit, he was in the side every week. the kid is our second best clearance/stoppage player behind watson for **** sake! and can get forward for the odd goal.

knights said it best last year in a presser: "he's no bit player, sam lonergan".

 

[saladin]

the more i think about it, the more ludicrous your lonergan position becomes. especially ranking him behind houli! bachar merely has potential as an outside player, sammy is already doing the business inside the traffic against the best players in the comp.

 

[ManWithNoName]

no - far too many are getting carried away with lonergan. there's only so many midfielders you can fit in one side...

at this stage for mine i believe watson, stanton, winderlich, prismall, mcveigh, welsh, myers, lovett, reimers, houli are all ahead of him as midfielders.

skipworth is debatable - not much in it between them.

dempsey, mcphee, nash, h.slattery, myers, lovett-murray are all better suited as small defenders ahead of him (not necessarily as players but as defenders better than lonergan for this role).

lovett, davey, monfries, reimers are all ahead of him for a small forward role

he is however ahead of dyson, jetta, zaharakis, j.williams, daniher, t.slattery, atkinson, hocking.

so with all this in mind logically i don't think he's in the best 22 given 3-4 small defenders, 3-4 small forwards, 7-8 midfielders (5 on ground, 2-3 on bench).

Lonergan is ahead of Myers, Reimers, Houli, Skipworth, Dempsey, McPhee, Nash, Slattery, Lovett-Murray and Monfries IMO.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

well you tell me which specific player(s) for a specific role (ie midfield, forward etc) you would have lonergan ahead of in my list above?

i don't doubt lonergan will play a lot of senior footy due to injuries/suspensions to others but i just can't see him in the best 22 at present.

He is behind Stanton, Watson, Mcveigh, Welsh, and Lovett in the middle, which leaves room for him on the bench/rotation.
Lonergan's foot skills under pressure are some of the best in the side, his aggresion and attack on the ball is only second to Mcveigh, he has that ability to shake his hips and break tackles that a lot of elite mids can do, and he runs well both ways, probably the most complete kid on our list and if he doesn't play 18+ games Knights shouldn't have his job.

 

[efcboy]

the more i think about it, the more ludicrous your lonergan position becomes. especially ranking him behind houli! bachar merely has potential as an outside player, sammy is already doing the business inside the traffic against the best players in the comp.

yet houli was a rising star nominee and lonergan wasn't...

 

[Red Black and Blue]

yet houli was a rising star nominee and lonergan wasn't...

Lol.

 

[saladin]

yet houli was a rising star nominee and lonergan wasn't...

now you are delving into stupidity. i'm not trying to bag houli - that's not what this is about - but a RS nomination means SFA. Lonergan wins clearances - and did it over a whole season. he has had far more impact with his work than houli has shown.

if lonergan didn't get a RS nomination, it proves nothing more than the compromised nature of the award.

 

[efcboy]

now you ARE taking the piss! on exposed form (from last year), lonergan is clearly ahead of myers, houli, skippy, lovett and reimers as mids. when fit, he was in the side every week. the kid is our second best clearance/stoppage player behind watson for **** sake! and can get forward for the odd goal.

knights said it best last year in a presser: "he's no bit player, sam lonergan".

exposed form last year - myers aquitted himself quite well in his debut year before injury stopped his season. houli likewise earning a rising star nom. skippy wasn't on the list but won the bendigo b&f, lovett missed many games thru suspension/injury, reimers was great in his 2nd year at the club also earning a rising star nom.

lonergan played above expectations no doubt and got many games - however getting a game last year was quite easy - even williams and magin were playing by seasons end...

with less injuries the pressure to earn a spot in the 22 can only be a good thing - already welsh and prismall are going to be out for a while so clearly lonergan will be playing. however i maintain that in his position as an in and under midfielder (ie centre, ruck rover, rover) i would have watson, mcveigh, welsh, prismall, houli all ahead of him - we need to see more senior games but i suspect myers will also prove more valuable. my argument was based on best 22 not whether he would get games.

 

[saladin]

where do you get the idea that houli is such a lock for an in-and-under midfielder?

 

[efcboy]

where do you get the idea that houli is such a lock for an in-and-under midfielder?

from his performances early in 2008 - he performed quite well in that area before a groin put pay to his season. he is well built to take the knocks, is quick, IMO doesn't mind a hard ball get (contest) despite others opinions and goes direct. he actually reminds me a bit of a young david calthorpe (EJ whitten medal form - not later!) in that he is so well built muscle wise and has that burst of pace. i can see him playing a similar role as what calthorpe did all those years ago - hopefully houli can sustain it longer without injury getting the better of him unlike calthorpe.

lonergan has great courage but i just don't think he has the capability to be as dynamic due to the lack of a burst of pace - his kicking penetration is not as deep either.

my vision is houli bursting thru a pack and bombing a 60m pass direct to a tall forwarline of gumby, lucas, lloyd, neagle, resting ruckman etc (given knights has indicated this).

 

[The Donners]

First of all, Jetta averaged 3 tackles a game last year which I think his pretty good. Puts a lot of pressure on the opposition - not sure how you can't see that.

Umm so? All of our midfielders averaged over 3 tackles per game and they were considered (and I agree) to be unaccountable.

Jetta has tricks. He has speed and thought and is very clever with his kicking and positioning. Have a look at the Freo game last year where he set up 5 goals and kept us in the game in the first half. He has definitely shown more than enough to suggest he'll play good footy once he gets an AFL body. Neither Myers or Gumbleton have done anything remotely close to what Jetta has done at AFL level. First game against Adelaide - impact, Freo - impact.

Goalsneaks are a dime a dozen and to be quite honest not sure which of the opposition clubs have a goalsneak less influential than Jetta. Aside from Gumbleton being a KPP he's been injured. Myers played 8 games and was starting to show great signs before injury stuck.

Gumbleton - has a lot of ability but his body is still not strong enough and he goes to ground a lot. It might take him 6 years to get the size and confidence to play AFL football. If you are going to be a star CHF you have to start showing something by your third year. He might do a bit this year but I'm worried that his body is not ready and might never be ready to play against big men.

Perhaps you should give him more than 2 NAB Cup games, the only 2 senior games he's played in 18 months. Also in his defense, the rolling zone does not help his confidence/development.

Myers - hasn't shown enough for me. Sometimes looks like he's running in the one spot and doesn'ts seem to have the sideways movement of a really good onballer. He might get better with fitness but I'm worried that he's just another big kid that can dominate against smaller opposition but when it comes to AFL he needs a lot more than just size.

You've got this from 8 games?

In terms of making it and being successful at AFL level I'd have them in this order - Jetta, Gumby, Myers.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[warney7]

What did this game tell us about many players and where Essendon are as a team?

Nothing!

It was a scratchy practice match and nothing more.

 

[monfries_monster]

Gumbleton looks like his peak will be more Mooney then Reiwoldt if he even ever gets there.

We can't play 4 tall forwards in the one game. Roving zones and flooding will kill us because our big guys aren't mobile enough or AFL match fit enough.

Nash still a dud - ditto Dyson.

Bellchambers outrucked Leunberger. Maybe you should never draft a ruckman with your first round pick.

Lovett could become elite this year.

Watson is better than most give him credit for.

Lonergan is now officially our best kid.

Myers is a worry.

Jetta looks bigger and stronger. Should start seeing an impact.

Daniher looks like he has the tools to play at this level.

McPhee - prefer him to be the 4th tall in the forward line. Gives us more mobility.

Hille is now our most important player.

Myers is a worry?? Foolish. First game back for a long time in a scrappy affair, and thought he was decent. Will be a gun and be a very important player in our future, could very well being elite, not many players on our list looking like that.

 

[loopy_cam]

Anyone who thinks Lonergan isn't a lock for the best 22 needs to go back and watch the entire 2008 season.

He'd make every teams best 22, not just ours.

 

[ant555]

from his performances early in 2008 - he performed quite well in that area before a groin put pay to his season. he is well built to take the knocks, is quick, IMO doesn't mind a hard ball get (contest) despite others opinions and goes direct. he actually reminds me a bit of a young david calthorpe (EJ whitten medal form - not later!) in that he is so well built muscle wise and has that burst of pace. i can see him playing a similar role as what calthorpe did all those years ago - hopefully houli can sustain it longer without injury getting the better of him unlike calthorpe.

lonergan has great courage but i just don't think he has the capability to be as dynamic due to the lack of a burst of pace - his kicking penetration is not as deep either.

my vision is houli bursting thru a pack and bombing a 60m pass direct to a tall forwarline of gumby, lucas, lloyd, neagle, resting ruckman etc (given knights has indicated this).

Sorry to burt your Bubble here but Houli is an outside player. Was an outside player at under 18 level and nothing has changed.
Yes he does get in the packs at times and fights for the footy but he is not a smash and grab player. He wins most of his possesions in space or recieving the footy.
I have serious doubts on his comitment to front on contact as well.
From all the games i have seen him play in the last 4 years there have always been a few times where he has taken short step or puled up when facing front on contact and it happened again a couple of times in yesterdays practice match at Geelong. For whatever reason he doesnt mind getting in packs at a stoppage but seems to be selective on who he meets head on.

I think your version of Houli is totally wrong. He is not the guys bursting through the pack despite his build. He is an outside finsher who could be very damaging once he has the confidence to kick the ball more often.

 

[rines]

LongerGUN is def in our best 22.. for 1 it gives Watson so MUCH needed help in the clearance work. We have a whole heap of outside players but very few who are prepared to get in and under. LongerGUN has courage and gets the ball out of congestion. I think Geelong have shown that you can't have too many midfield options. We need to have at least 2-3 guys capable of getting the ball.. at this stage we have watson and mcveigh.. so lonergan fits in nicely.

 

[GoDons]

Actually Jetta is not overly quick. He has reasonable pace but he has not got the straight out pace that Lovett or Davey have. Jetta relies more on agility and his side step to beat players rather than outrite pace.

His 20m time is better than Lovett's, I don't think it's a lack of pace.

I think it's still an endurance issue. He played a lot of minutes on Friday night, and I don't think he's got the tank to move at full speed for the entirity of that time, at least when he's spending that much time up the ground.

 

[Sigmund]

from his performances early in 2008 - he performed quite well in that area before a groin put pay to his season. he is well built to take the knocks, is quick, IMO doesn't mind a hard ball get (contest) despite others opinions and goes direct. he actually reminds me a bit of a young david calthorpe (EJ whitten medal form - not later!) in that he is so well built muscle wise and has that burst of pace. i can see him playing a similar role as what calthorpe did all those years ago - hopefully houli can sustain it longer without injury getting the better of him unlike calthorpe.

lonergan has great courage but i just don't think he has the capability to be as dynamic due to the lack of a burst of pace - his kicking penetration is not as deep either.

my vision is houli bursting thru a pack and bombing a 60m pass direct to a tall forwarline of gumby, lucas, lloyd, neagle, resting ruckman etc (given knights has indicated this).

If you watch his game closely (not convinced you have), you will find that this is actually a strenght of his.. His first 3-5 metres is quick, and I think you will find that this is why he finds himself in 2 metres of space in rapid time after picking up the footy from the pack.

Your vision is based on a biased dream. I too hope Houli can do this... but you have no substance to your arguement.. Sam is ahead at the moment.. bottom line

 

[efcboy]

If you watch his game closely (not convinced you have), you will find that this is actually a strenght of his.. His first 3-5 metres is quick, and I think you will find that this is why he finds himself in 2 metres of space in rapid time after picking up the footy from the pack.

Your vision is based on a biased dream. I too hope Houli can do this... but you have no substance to your arguement.. Sam is ahead at the moment.. bottom line

why would i be biased?! both of these guys are essendon players!!!
i don't care which one is better at the end of the today as long as at least one of them can develop into a better midfielder.

houli can win his own ball no problems - he's not as crash n bash as lonergan but he is quicker - there is absolutely no doubting that and his kick is more penetrating.

lonergan could be another andrew manning, dean bailey type who is serviceable but houli could be a bit better than that with his attributes.