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Something is on the nose...and it's Collingwood

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Eddie Van Halen said:
Another thing.... why were there only 2 clubs seriously enquiring about Treloar and Stevo?
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Because Collingwood signed them up to insanely excessive contracts?

With the reduced cap and list sizes, very few clubs, and rightly so, are in a position to sign these 2 on $900k and $600k contracts. Just because Collingwood didn’t hesitate to sign them up to ridiculous contracts, it doesn’t mean you’ll get other clubs rushing in to do the same. No matter their talent, other clubs won’t be putting the rest of their list and reputation at risk to overpay players...unlike Collingwood
 
HeadInTheSand said:
No, they are much worse.

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of dispensing with Treloar, Stephenson and Phillips, it still leaves spuds like Thomas (4.4. this year), Mayne (slower than frozen treacle) and Cox (pushed under the ball too easily even if he can see out of both eyes) on the list, and one of them is reportedly on $500,000 plus.

Anderson mentioned Sier in his email, conveniently forgetting that he has been on the list for five seasons and has played half a decent season. His finger is planted so firmly up his arse there isn't a colorectal surgeon in the world that could guarantee removal.

Geoff Walsh has revealed himself to be completely useless at managing a football department, and is clearly only interested in topping up his pension. The two coaches who were responsible for the improvement in 2018 in Longmuir and Hocking are gone, and the coaching triumvirate of Buckley, Harvey and Sanderson are so far out of their depth Mick McGuane, Phil Carman and and Tony Shaw would be a more attractive option.

Mcguire sticks his foot in his mouth every time he opens it, which has had a devastating impact on a hospitality industry struggling to revive itself after Dickhead Dan thought letting his subcontinental friends needed to learn about diversity instead of infection control.

Ned Guy clearly needs to be shown how to use an Excel spreadsheet instead of a whiteboard the tea lady wipes clean every night.

The place is a cesspool, and until a President with standards is elected, the club will never taste success.
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This surely wins Post of the Year. Late appearance but magnificent across all criteria (vitriol, humor, actual point being made).

Humor aside, your points across each of those stand. There are areas that just don't stand up to scrutiny nor best practice.

And the fact that Guy still has a job after this debacle tells me that there is something else at play. Did someone other than Guy negotiate contracts? Someone not in the football department? And Guy conveniently took the hit knowing his employer was supporting him throughout this period?
 
Eddie Van Halen said:
He was told a 'few' times?
You're a professional sportsman, who's already got an asterix against his name for a massive stuff up with gambling. How many times are they expected to reinforce what he needs to do? All year? In your job at work, are you expected to be told something 15 times until you get it right?
He's lazy, plain and simple.Thinks he doesn't have to work hard to get to that level of 2018.

if you don't want to give 110% to the jumper, then piss off. And find someone else who does. Look at Geelong, Hawthorn and now Richmond. Team first. Personal goals second. Collingwood need to be ruthless and c&%tish when dealing with player contract negotiations going forward. This is how much we're prepared to pay you. If it's not to your liking, then bugger off. I would have given Grundy 4 years. Don't like it? Great, there's 2 teams in Adelaide who would love to have you.

I'm not bothered in the slightest about any of the 3 leaving. Stevo's lazy, Treloar is past it and Phillips has a big tank. And that's it.

Another thing.... why were there only 2 clubs seriously enquiring about Treloar and Stevo? If these 2 are such guns, why did only 2 clubs seriously entertain them? People are fuming about the pick we got for Stevo. Why? What do other clubs know that we don't? Treloar is a shadow of his former self post double hammy. Add to the fact that he'll be spending a considerable time away from a new bub and his wife. You reckon that's not going to play on his mind throughout the year? For a bloke that's already got anxiety issues? Even with the Pies paying a chunk of his $, why were the Doggies the only ones serious about bringing him on?

Pies supporters need to calm TF down. And all those cancelling their memberships... good, piss off. Don't need you. Right or wrong, you stick by the club.
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Treloar's contract put many suitors off. He was being paid as much (or almost as much) as Dusty.

Stephenson - yeah I tend to think there's more to the story. I tend to think he's been a very bad boy and Collingwood have had enough. They could have gotten rid of someone else as part of their salary cup dump. He just made it easy for them to include him in the list. IMO.

Phillips - he will be a loss. Hard running 2 way wingers are priceless in today's game.
 
Lyyynnnchy said:
Because Collingwood signed them up to insanely excessive contracts?

With the reduced cap and list sizes, very few clubs, and rightly so, are in a position to sign these 2 on $900k and $600k contracts. Just because Collingwood didn’t hesitate to sign them up to ridiculous contracts, it doesn’t mean you’ll get other clubs rushing in to do the same. No matter their talent, other clubs won’t be putting the rest of their list and reputation at risk to overpay players...unlike Collingwood
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Not sure if accurate, but I read Phillips was on a 600k contract too.

That's unbelievable for a handy but very interchangeable player
 

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Eddie Van Halen said:
LOL... Look at your reply with the personal attacks... and I'M the one that's got attitude? Do you want a tissue?
The club owes you ZERO in terms of why or how they're going about their business or why they're making certain business decisions.
They'll never make everyone happy and in this instance, yes, they've made a lot of people unhappy.
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Except that they lied through their arse to you members. Supporters have every right to be pissed off at them. And yes run a business. Just don't treat your members and supporters as idiots.
 
sprockets said:
""The reality of the possibility he might have been considering going to Queensland and being with his family was part of the reasoning around having the initial discussion with him 12 months ago and again this year."

www.afl.com.au

'This is a break-up': Buckley on Treloar chat, 'short and sharp' conversations

Nathan Buckley goes into detail about the club's heavily scrutinised Trade Period
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au

You won't be seeing an apology.
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I actually think this point is extremely valid.

Most people with kids, especially a bub, know full well that they would never choose to be separated for 6+ months due to work if there's an opportunity to move your employment.

Being away from your kids for more than a day is hard.
 
I heard Mark Anderson and Buckley yesterday and IMO they only made it worse.

They talked about giving transparency to supporters and ended up just doubling down on the bullshit. Buckley wasn't as bad, at least he admitted to forcing Stephenson and Treloar out (still blamed Treloar's partner though as the 'catalyst', despite admitting to trying to move him on the year before :drunk:), but Anderson was a trainwreck.

I wish the journos doing the interviewing could just pull them up on their crap and stop being so soft on them! 'We wanted to get into the draft and replenish the list' - If only Whately, Gary or Tim had the guts to say 'Let me pull you up just there - are you saying you want to replenish the list by getting rid of a 21 year old Rising Star, who you paid pick 6 for, and a top 20 mid who you paid two first rounders for, in order to get into the draft with a single late first round pick in return!'

Either admit
a) You wanted to get into the draft - and in doing so made some of the worst trade deals of all time, and own that - OR
b) Your primary reason was to free up cap space and you had to take the only scraps you could get because your list management of players contracts in the years leading up has been so inept, and own that.

There has been incompetence one way or another, admit it - they can't spin this as being all part of the plan, some fresh bold strategy just so all the boys can keep their jobs and no-one is accountable.
 
Fat Nyfe said:
Also, I'm still yet to hear a Collingwood person get asked WHY they extended Treloar for 5 years, on a massive back-ended deal in mid 2019, before trying to move him on at the end of 2019. Whoever was involved in those decisions should have gotten the sack there and then.
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Yep and then Grundy massive deal this year. They must have known the salary cap mess they were in at that time
 
Fat Nyfe said:
Also, I'm still yet to hear a Collingwood person get asked WHY they extended Treloar for 5 years, on a massive back-ended deal in mid 2019, before trying to move him on at the end of 2019. Whoever was involved in those decisions should have gotten the sack there and then.
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I think the back ending of the deal was the whole point. Their cap was obviously at bursting point when they re-contracted him but by delaying the years of higher payments they thought they could balance things in the short-term.

I'm surprised more hasn't been said about Collingwood's decision to bring Dayne Beams back. From the outside it seems that that deal was the catalyst for what has happened now. Obviously bringing him back has been an unmitigated disaster but even if he didn't have off field issues, and was playing to his previous AA standard, did anyone think that Collingwood were lacking another classy mid when they lost the 2018 GF?

To think the likes of Jeremy Cameron, Tom Lynch and Joe Daniher have changed clubs since then while Collingwood persist of a forward line of Cox/Mihocek is just staggering. Any of those three would turn Collingwood into a near GF certainty IMO.
 
fpm84 said:
I think the back ending of the deal was the whole point. Their cap was obviously at bursting point when they re-contracted him but by delaying the years of higher payments they thought they could balance things in the short-term.

I'm surprised more hasn't been said about Collingwood's decision to bring Dayne Beams back. From the outside it seems that that deal was the catalyst for what has happened now. Obviously bringing him back has been an unmitigated disaster but even if he didn't have off field issues, and was playing to his previous AA standard, did anyone think that Collingwood were lacking another classy mid when they lost the 2018 GF?

To think the likes of Jeremy Cameron, Tom Lynch and Joe Daniher have changed clubs since then while Collingwood persist of a forward line of Cox/Mihocek is just staggering. Any of those three would turn Collingwood into a near GF certainty IMO.
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I understand why they back ended the deal - the point is, why offer such an extension in the first place only to look to move him on literally a few months later? It doesn't pass the common sense test.
 
Fat Nyfe said:
Also, I'm still yet to hear a Collingwood person get asked WHY they extended Treloar for 5 years, on a massive back-ended deal in mid 2019, before trying to move him on at the end of 2019. Whoever was involved in those decisions should have gotten the sack there and then.
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Gavin Excell said:
Yep and then Grundy massive deal this year. They must have known the salary cap mess they were in at that time
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fpm84 said:
...

I'm surprised more hasn't been said about Collingwood's decision to bring Dayne Beams back. From the outside it seems that that deal was the catalyst for what has happened now. Obviously bringing him back has been an unmitigated disaster but even if he didn't have off field issues, and was playing to his previous AA standard, did anyone think that Collingwood were lacking another classy mid when they lost the 2018 GF?
...
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And for these points and for the fact that Guy still has his job, I tend to think someone(s) else has instituted these contracts. Could ego have played a part in offering these contracts?
 

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Fat Nyfe said:
I understand why they back ended the deal - the point is, why offer such an extension in the first place only to look to move him on literally a few months later? It doesn't pass the common sense test.
Click to expand...
Fat Nyfe said:
I understand why they back ended the deal - the point is, why offer such an extension in the first place only to look to move him on literally a few months later? It doesn't pass the common sense test.
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A possibility is a combination of the following happening from the extension offer to moving him on

* Pies thought they could get AFL to agree to special circumstances on getting Beams payout made outside salary cap
* Performance clauses triggered in 2020 season (e.g. Cox) resulting in higher commitments
* Covid happened and resultant impacts of adjusted salary caps and list sizes

Pies were probably sailing very close to the wind with their overall cap management but the above may have pushed into territory that required the drastic action we saw in Trade Week
 
Gavin Excell said:
A possibility is a combination of the following happening from the extension offer to moving him on

* Pies thought they could get AFL to agree to special circumstances on getting Beams payout made outside salary cap
* Performance clauses triggered in 2020 season (e.g. Cox) resulting in higher commitments
* Covid happened and resultant impacts of adjusted salary caps and list sizes

Pies were probably sailing very close to the wind with their overall cap management but the above may have pushed into territory that required the drastic action we saw in Trade Week
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Beams however wasn't known at the time. They were in this mess before Collingwood knew that Beams would walk.

edit: OK I've just seen the dates and it is feasible that they thought they could push his payout to outside the cap. And hence the Grundy contract at the end of last year.

And with the need to re-contract DeGoey...cap dump.

They still would have known that DeGoey was coming up and with Grundy taking such a large slice of the cap, they wouldn't have been able to keep him. They knew (surely they had to have known) they were in a mess from Grundy's signing.
 
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nineteen eighty said:
Treloar's contract put many suitors off. He was being paid as much (or almost as much) as Dusty.

Stephenson - yeah I tend to think there's more to the story. I tend to think he's been a very bad boy and Collingwood have had enough. They could have gotten rid of someone else as part of their salary cup dump. He just made it easy for them to include him in the list. IMO.

Phillips - he will be a loss. Hard running 2 way wingers are priceless in today's game.
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Not so priceless when he was traded out for pick what, 65?
 
nineteen eighty said:
Beams however wasn't known at the time. They were in this mess before Collingwood knew that Beams would walk.

edit: OK I've just seen the dates and it is feasible that they thought they could push his payout to outside the cap. And hence the Grundy contract at the end of last year.

And with the need to re-contract DeGoey...cap dump.

They still would have known that DeGoey was coming up and with Grundy taking such a large slice of the cap, they wouldn't have been able to keep him. They knew (surely they had to have known) they were in a mess from Grundy's signing.
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True
I guess I was trying to understand if there was something that happened in last few months that changed things. Whatever way you look at it though it’s a massive administrative failure
 
Gavin Excell said:
True
I guess I was trying to understand if there was something that happened in last few months that changed things. Whatever way you look at it though it’s a massive administrative failure
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Totally. And now the question is who was responsible? Is it Guy? Walsh? Anderson? Someone with even more power? At a minimum, Guy's and Walsh's positions are untenable. Even if they had little to do with Grundy's contract extension and Beams, in the public eye they are the ones responsible. Unless Maguire wants to put his hand up (which I doubt...he's not that type of bloke).
 

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nineteen eighty said:
Totally. And now the question is who was responsible? Is it Guy? Walsh? Anderson? Someone with even more power? At a minimum, Guy's and Walsh's positions are untenable. Even if they had little to do with Grundy's contract extension and Beams, in the public eye they are the ones responsible. Unless Maguire wants to put his hand up (which I doubt...he's not that type of bloke).
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Which sort of explains the ham fisted front that it's all part of a master strategy.
Nobody wants to take ownership which suggests, in the words of the Premiers Chief of staff during the hotel quarantine inquiry, its a case of "Shared Accountability"
 
If Collingwood had of came out straight away and admitted they'd got it wrong with the salary cap we'd all solemnly nod our heads, and they'd at least have some grace to make these moves without the obvious media backlash and potentially losing the trust of the group.

Fully expecting a dip down the ladder, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's quite a significant fall. These sorts of actions can really damage the psyche of a group, and Collingwood were overachieving anyway with the players they have at their disposal.

Could go very pear-shaped over the next 12-18 months.
 
nineteen eighty said:
This surely wins Post of the Year. Late appearance but magnificent across all criteria (vitriol, humor, actual point being made).
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Thank you, kind sir. If only I didn't have to write it...

nineteen eighty said:
And now the question is who was responsible? Is it Guy? Walsh? Anderson? Someone with even more power? At a minimum, Guy's and Walsh's positions are untenable.
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Walsh is ultimately in charge of the football department, so he must have signed off on the contracts, knowing that it was going to cost them a couple of players down the line. I suspect he will handily "retire" after the trade period is over.

I doubt that Guy carries the can. He was another captain's pick by McGuire, just like Allan, and Mcguire couldn't really afford to throw another one under the bus.

It's been reported this morning - The Age, I think - that Ben Reid kept having his contract adjusted, and in 2019, was one of the highest paid players at the club, which I assume means around $600,000 plus. Most supporters were mystified why he was continually getting a new contract when his body is shot, and that explains it.

That's gross mismanagement whatever way someone tries to spin it. The point made above about signing Grundy to such a long term, expensive deal knowing of the cap issues is a good one. They perhaps thought they would be able to sneak Beams' contract away from the salary cap, and perhaps also thought Langdon might have retired by now, saving another $500,000 plus, but you can't run a football club on what you hope might happen, or hope that the AFL will look favourably on you.

In any other sporting club in the world, let alone a professional business organisation, McGuire would have stepped down, and Walsh and Guy at a minimum would have tendered their resignation for failing so spectacularly in their basic duties.

That nothing like that has happened yet shows the contempt they have for their own supporters and members.
 
Probably the best part of $1.0M and counting from the Pies Cap next year will go in payments to Beams and top ups of the Treloar, Phillips and Stephenson salaries.

We got stuck with Tippett's payments coming under the cap and I guess Beams is the same.

I listened to the Buckley interview. Whately is incapable of asking a hard question, but even so Bucks turned in a shocker. While she may not be everyone's cup of tea, Caroline Wilson would have applied serious and appropriate heat.

I wonder how much CFC is missing the Footy Show as a means of boosting off the books salaries. Poor old Trav Cloke had the wit of a lamp post but was a fixture until traded. I expect many of the top players (not just at the Pies) have missed cashies in this wreck of a year.

I am also curious to learn how much influence McGuire exerted in contracting and in issuing directions on individual players and their contracts, beyond his role of chairing the Board.
 
Grand Uncle Horace said:
Probably the best part of $1.0M and counting from the Pies Cap next year will go in payments to Beams and top ups of the Treloar, Phillips and Stephenson salaries.

We got stuck with Tippett's payments coming under the cap and I guess Beams is the same.

I listened to the Buckley interview. Whately is incapable of asking a hard question, but even so Bucks turned in a shocker. While she may not be everyone's cup of tea, Caroline Wilson would have applied serious and appropriate heat.

I wonder how much CFC is missing the Footy Show as a means of boosting off the books salaries. Poor old Trav Cloke had the wit of a lamp post but was a fixture until traded. I expect many of the top players (not just at the Pies) have missed cashies in this wreck of a year.

I am also curious to learn how much influence McGuire exerted in contracting and in issuing directions on individual players and their contracts, beyond his role of chairing the Board.
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Agree re: Wilson. She's one of the few that would call it for what it is.

And as for your last paragraph, that's the million dollar question (literally) if I was a member. You would want full disclosure on how this mess came about, who did what, who signed whom, who approved them. I'm happy to put some money on it that Maguire is heavily (and I don't just mean as a President) involved. His pay prints I reckon are across at least a couple of these mismanaged deals. Beams? Grundy 7 years?

edit: I meant to type paw prints but I'll leave it is as pay...
 
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HeadInTheSand said:
Thank you, kind sir. If only I didn't have to write it...



Walsh is ultimately in charge of the football department, so he must have signed off on the contracts, knowing that it was going to cost them a couple of players down the line. I suspect he will handily "retire" after the trade period is over.

I doubt that Guy carries the can. He was another captain's pick by McGuire, just like Allan, and Mcguire couldn't really afford to throw another one under the bus.

It's been reported this morning - The Age, I think - that Ben Reid kept having his contract adjusted, and in 2019, was one of the highest paid players at the club, which I assume means around $600,000 plus. Most supporters were mystified why he was continually getting a new contract when his body is shot, and that explains it.

That's gross mismanagement whatever way someone tries to spin it. The point made above about signing Grundy to such a long term, expensive deal knowing of the cap issues is a good one. They perhaps thought they would be able to sneak Beams' contract away from the salary cap, and perhaps also thought Langdon might have retired by now, saving another $500,000 plus, but you can't run a football club on what you hope might happen, or hope that the AFL will look favourably on you.

In any other sporting club in the world, let alone a professional business organisation, McGuire would have stepped down, and Walsh and Guy at a minimum would have tendered their resignation for failing so spectacularly in their basic duties.

That nothing like that has happened yet shows the contempt they have for their own supporters and members.
Click to expand...
Hang on, what Langdon is on $500k?
He's fringe
 

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Something is on the nose...and it's Collingwood

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