St Kilda complain about priority draft access in Oct 2024; now set to gain priority access to a first / second round pick via their NGA access

[Elixuh]

But from a fairness point of view, one club has access to anyone it develops as a junior and another club does not. What you have described is an argument for the entire abolition of the draft. And who decides who is not going to pursue AFL without the academies? I've described what I think is the most fair way the draft remains and restored to it's objective of sending the best talent to the worst teams while maintaining the academies. But having three top fifteen picks in one year all through academy rights without any compensation (and the bloggs example is an explanation for some level of fairness but not an example of compensation) is unacceptable.

It's important the northern teams have home grown stars. It's not important they realise maximum return on all players who might be persuaded to play AFL because they were supported through a local academy in their junior years.

And it's really not important that sons play at the same clubs as their fathers.

The draft is inherently unfair, if the measure is whether we can have an entirely fair system or abolish the draft altogether, then you'd abolish it tomorrow. But I don't subscribe to that view. It is about using different inequalities to balance everything as best you can.

I would be happy to remove any priority access mechanisms from the talent produced by northern academies if the cost and resource implications of running them was split equally amongst the other clubs in the league, so that they're equally funded. The nothern clubs will inevitably use up some of their own resources to still run them just by practical necessity, but that'd be fine. It is why I always like that the only solution the VFL clubs argue for is to abolish the academies, as old Fred Bassett has.

The primary purpose of the academies is not so that northern teams can have home grown starts. It is to increase the talent pool of the national comp. Historically it has been true that we more or less get most of the players we want from academies each year, but that is a reflection on the steady growth of talent being produced. As more and more talent is produced this will naturally flow to other teams in the comp as the northern clubs are unable to match everything. The past 10 years has seen a dramatic increase in grass roots junior footy in Qld and NSW, this is a decades long project for the betterment of the entire competition.

 

[The Punter]

The draft is inherently unfair, if the measure is whether we can have an entirely fair system or abolish the draft altogether, then you'd abolish it tomorrow. But I don't subscribe to that view. It is about using different inequalities to balance everything as best you can.

I would be happy to remove any priority access mechanisms from the talent produced by northern academies if the cost and resource implications of running them was split equally amongst the other clubs in the league, so that they're equally funded. The nothern clubs will inevitably use up some of their own resources to still run them just by practical necessity, but that'd be fine. It is why I always like that the only solution the VFL clubs argue for is to abolish the academies, as old Fred Bassett has.

The primary purpose of the academies is not so that northern teams can have home grown starts. It is to increase the talent pool of the national comp. Historically it has been true that we more or less get most of the players we want from academies each year, but that is a reflection on the steady growth of talent being produced. As more and more talent is produced this will naturally flow to other teams in the comp as the northern clubs are unable to match everything. The past 10 years has seen a dramatic increase in grass roots junior footy in Qld and NSW, this is a decades long project for the betterment of the entire competition.

Not sure if you'll get much support from your northern neighbours for removing priority access. I can't see a way where priority access can be fair BTW. Which is why, if the aim is home grown stars, just limit the number but take them out of the draft altogether.

I think Andrew Bassat has really, in essence, been arguing for a fairer price. The current system can be made fairer but not fair while clubs retain exclusive access to father-sons and academy kids (of any type of academy) without compensation to the club losing their ability to draft at that place in the draft.

And I agree with you: if the northern clubs don't get exclusive access, then the AFL has the responsibility to run the academies.

 

[Elixuh]

Not sure if you'll get much support from your northern neighbours for removing priority access. I can't see a way where priority access can be fair BTW. Which is why, if the aim is home grown stars, just limit the number but take them out of the draft altogether.

I think Andrew Bassat has really, in essence, been arguing for a fairer price. The current system can be made fairer but not fair while clubs retain exclusive access to father-sons and academy kids (of any type of academy) without compensation to the club losing their ability to draft at that place in the draft.

And I agree with you: if the northern clubs don't get exclusive access, then the AFL has the responsibility to run the academies.

Of course the preference would be to retain the benefit in whole. Every club in the league which has a benefit or advantage advocates to maintain that while criticising other advantages or benefits which they don't have and other teams do. Fred wants to end academies not for us to pay a fairer price.

In an ideal world the AFL would run the academies, but it'll never happen. Was a disaster before will be a disaster now. The AFL simply doesn't want to do it.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

You realise that doesn't entitle you to rights on him forever, he's not a slave... we didn't kidnap him
same as Hill, whom I might add, you got very good value for
you said that the Saints were a club that liked to poach others, Jackson and Bolton are just 2 examples of Freo doing the same thing
But aside, you got to select a top 10 NGA player, we didn't, we could not select Cam McKenzie. Ohh look, poor Freo

on the side, why were Freo fans booing Ross yesterday, considering you sacked him, very wierd

Everyone forgets why he left. He had sexual assault allegations against him. Freo had to pay out a civil lawsuit against the club which was settled out of court after he left.

Its believed that Lyon was staying on til end of his contract until that happened so it was less Ross Lyon being sacked for bad coaching and more being fired for poor behaviour... behaviour which cost the club lots of money

 

[The Punter]

Of course the preference would be to retain the benefit in whole. Every club in the league which has a benefit or advantage advocates to maintain that while criticising other advantages or benefits which they don't have and other teams do. Fred wants to end academies not for us to pay a fairer price.

In an ideal world the AFL would run the academies, but it'll never happen. Was a disaster before will be a disaster now. The AFL simply doesn't want to do it.

I think the recent request from St Kilda to the AFL on this issue is an ambit claim.

And if we're not arguing for an ideal world around here, I'm not sure what the point of all this chatter on either side is. If the AFL implemented my plan, I think the league would be a lot fairer.

 

[Elixuh]

I think the recent request from St Kilda to the AFL on this issue is an ambit claim.

And if we're not arguing for an ideal world around here, I'm not sure what the point of all this chatter on either side is. If the AFL implemented my plan, I think the league would be a lot fairer.

A fairer world doesn’t always mean lining up and addressing only the things you disagree with and ignoring the rest. Which is not to say you have done that, but many others do.

Sometimes perceived unfairness in one instance is part of an overall ecosystem of fairness, balancing inequalities.

 

[Mat Mann]

Everyone forgets why he left. He had sexual assault allegations against him. Freo had to pay out a civil lawsuit against the club which was settled out of court after he left.

Its believed that Lyon was staying on til end of his contract until that happened so it was less Ross Lyon being sacked for bad coaching and more being fired for poor behaviour... behaviour which cost the club lots of money

How long ago was that? Surely long enough to let it go

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

How long ago was that? Surely long enough to let it go

Probably not. In W.A its quite well known and its definetly a stain on his time here. I mean itd be a bit weird to clap the guy who committed sexual assault on a staff member wouldnt it?

 

[botts]

How will it make it fairer?

There will also be less talent available, is that an issue, especially as we head towards 20 teams.

Well keep the academy but no more priority access

 

[The Punter]

Sometimes perceived unfairness in one instance is part of an overall ecosystem of fairness, balancing inequalities.

Feel free to make the case with examples of the balancing inequalities, while I watch a league where teams are stuck at the bottom for longer periods that at any time since before the creation of the draft.

The system was broken
They introduced a draft
The system worked
They changed the draft
The system was broken again

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Happy to be a vic club that poach others though
Henry kicked a nice goal today

You poached your best player from another club Luke Jackson

you didnt answer the question and also the draft is after the trade period so how would u even know what pick the player is going to go at and then being able to make a suitable trade live on the night would be even more ridiculous and impossible thats why there's a point system already in place, also you said top 4 picks, Levi went at pick 5 so pick 5 is fine???

You also referenced the AFL to world sport, what world sport has 9 teams come out of 1 city thus creating an unfair travel advantage and also the majority of the talent pool, not to mention the grand final thats just here to stay in melbourne for another 50 years, the AFL is a unique domestic sport, making comparisons to other sports is just ridiculous

Your looking from a biased point of view your club gets to double dip so has a lot to loose, Its a simple answer you have no guarantee that you are going to get the player the teams that finish bottom have a much greater need for talent, it will be up to those clubs if they wish to trade , the bidding might as well not even exist it’s a joke and complete waste of time even the old system was farer at Least the club had to use there next available pick to match a bid

 

[Elixuh]

Well keep the academy but no more priority access

Can the mighty Sainters pitch in to cover some of the costs of running it?

 

[Elixuh]

Feel free to make the case with examples of the balancing inequalities, while I watch a league where teams are stuck at the bottom for longer periods that at any time since before the creation of the draft.

The system was broken
They introduced a draft
The system worked
They changed the draft
The system was broken again

Nah. The system only ever worked nicely for certain teams.

When the Lions were down the bottom of the ladder we had to cross plenty of players off our draft board who did not want to leave Victoria. So it wasn’t fair to us, we couldn’t draft best available talent. But we didnt spend our time whinging about it - well we actually did but it didn’t help us.

Your view of the system being fair is purely from a VFL perspective.

 

[The Punter]

Nah. The system only ever worked nicely for certain teams.

When the Lions were down the bottom of the ladder we had to cross plenty of players off our draft board who did not want to leave Victoria. So it wasn’t fair to us, we couldn’t draft best available talent. But we didnt spend our time whinging about it.

Your view of the system being fair is purely from a VFL perspective.

Which is why I advocated for a significant further increase in the salary cap.

Another key plank of the system that doesn't work as well as it should, the objective of the salary cap is to work as a de facto talent cap. This is why salaries need to increase: players need to be making decisions about their playing future based on salary. As Brisbane's money is the same colour as Collingwood's, that evens the playing field.

But the only way that works is in the difference in salary offers is significant. Take Gary Ablett's decision to leave Geelong for example. The difference in annual salary in the two offers was over $1m, so he made the decision with his wallet. The best team lost a player to the worst team. If we combine this with an earlier time frame for free agency (so players are making financial decisions with their prime in front of them, rather than premiership decisions mid or post prime), then the salary cap might start actually doing its job.

I make no judgement on how other teams choose to pursue their objectives, whether it be using existing rules or speaking publicly.

There's no VFL view in my thinking: I care for all other clubs the same (OK, Essendon a little less).

 

[Elixuh]

Which is why I advocated for a significant further increase in the salary cap.

Another key plank of the system that doesn't work as well as it should, the objective of the salary cap is to work as a de facto talent cap. This is why salaries need to increase: players need to be making decisions about their playing future based on salary. As Brisbane's money is the same colour as Collingwood's, that evens the playing field.

But the only way that works is in the difference in salary offers is significant. Take Gary Ablett's decision to leave Geelong for example. The difference in annual salary in the two offers was over $1m, so he made the decision with his wallet. The best team lost a player to the worst team. If we combine this with an earlier time frame for free agency (so players are making financial decisions with their prime in front of them, rather than premiership decisions mid or post prime), then the salary cap might start actually doing its job.

I make no judgement on how other teams choose to pursue their objectives, whether it be using existing rules or speaking publicly.

There's no VFL view in my thinking: I care for all other clubs the same (OK, Essendon a little less).

The example you used about Gary Ablett has nothing to do with the draft. The cba sets draftees wages. Your answer in no way addresses the issues about draft fairness. lol.

 

[The Punter]

The example you used about Gary Ablett has nothing to do with the draft. The cba sets draftees wages. Your answer in no way addresses the issues about draft fairness. lol.

Those wages would increase as well. The only fairness consideration IMO for the draft is worst team gets the best pick unhindered by other considerations. That club can then do whatever they wish with that pick.

 

[Elixuh]

Those wages would increase as well. The only fairness consideration IMO for the draft is worst team gets the best pick unhindered by other considerations. That club can then do whatever they wish with that pick.

Those wages increasing would have no impact on the issue I flagged.

The answer that you’re avoiding is that these significant disadvantages within the pure unhindered draft cannot be resolved.

The issue for St Kilda is you’re always going to have to nail the draft more than other VFL clubs who find it easier to attract talent via trade and FA. So I get why it’s a big issue for the Saints. But it doesn’t mean we should ignore reality.

 

[The Punter]

Those wages increasing would have no impact on the issue I flagged.

The answer that you’re avoiding is that these significant disadvantages within the pure unhindered draft cannot be resolved.

The issue for St Kilda is you’re always going to have to nail the draft more than other VFL clubs who find it easier to attract talent via trade and FA. So I get why it’s a big issue for the Saints. But it doesn’t mean we should ignore reality.

It'd be easier if the money was more significant.

And removing exclusive access is a simple, easy fix. Moving Brisbane to Melbourne because it's where the other clubs play is not an easy fix. But if there was more money in the system, more players would play away from the states they grew up in because they would go where the money is. People move states for work all the time if the money is good enough.

I stand by my plan, but understand not everyone will agree with me or even manage to understand my rationale for a fairer system.

 

[Elixuh]

It'd be easier if the money was more significant.

And removing exclusive access is a simple, easy fix. Moving Brisbane to Melbourne because it's where the other clubs play is not an easy fix. But if there was more money in the system, more players would play away from the states they grew up in because they would go where the money is. People move states for work all the time if the money is good enough.

I stand by my plan, but understand not everyone will agree with me or even manage to understand my rationale for a fairer system.

If the CBA mandates $400k first year player salaries then there is no difference between what Brisbane can offer and what St Kilda can offer.

Or are you saying get rid of the caps for these draftees?

In essence your suggestion is then that a team like Brisbane has to overpay in its cap to break this inequality and convince a player to move from Vic to QLD. This then destroys the idea of the unhindered draft. Again it’s all VFL mindset with no understanding of the downside impact.

 

[The Punter]

If the CBA mandates $400k first year player salaries then there is no difference between what Brisbane can offer and what St Kilda can offer.

Or are you saying get rid of the caps for these draftees?

In essence your suggestion is that a team like Brisbane has to overpay in its cap to break this inequality and convince a player to move from Vic to QLD. Again it’s all VFL mindset with no understanding of the downside impact.

OK, we are misunderstanding each other.

I'm saying Brisbane can draft anyone they want in an open pool, then offer them more money come time for contract renegotiations. With a lower floor, if a player leaves, they can save that money to make large offers to free agents.

The draft only works if the order of the draft is the reverse of the ladder. After initial mandated contracts, higher salary caps give clubs greater ability to offer more significant money to their own players or free agents.

BTW, Brisbane seem to be doing a good job of retaining drafted talent (McCluggage, Berry) at the moment as well as attracting players from other states (Neale, Dunkley, Cameron) so the inherent disadvantage referred to doesn't seem to be manifesting itself. Meanwhile North Melbourne have been bottom two for five consecutive years yet can't even seem to rise to the giddy heights of competitiveness while they see Sam Darcy, Levi Aschroft and Jed Walter go to other clubs that finished above them. That is a demonstration of the objectives of the draft being perverted.

The issues are:

• worst teams not getting access to the best talent because of academies (some league benefit) and father-sons (no benefit)
• players making free agency decisions on considerations other than money (which you fix my making the money irresistible and changing the timeframe)

The automatic priority picks, which worked towards the objectives of the draft and not against it, would be fine for me as a makeweight against the academies and the father-son. It worked as far as the father-son rule was concerned in the 2000s (when every team made a preliminary final) and would work again.

 

[Elixuh]

OK, we are misunderstanding each other.

I'm saying Brisbane can draft anyone they want in an open pool, then offer them more money come time for contract renegotiations. With a lower floor, if a player leaves, they can save that money to make large offers to free agents.

The draft only works if the order of the draft is the reverse of the ladder. After initial mandated contracts, higher salary caps give clubs greater ability to offer more significant money to their own players or free agents.

BTW, Brisbane seem to be doing a good job of retaining drafted talent (McCluggage, Berry) at the moment as well as attracting players from other states (Neale, Dunkley, Cameron) so the inherent disadvantage referred to doesn't seem to be manifesting itself. Meanwhile North Melbourne have been bottom two for five consecutive years yet can't even seem to rise to the giddy heights of competitiveness while they see Sam Darcy, Levi Aschroft and Jed Walter go to other clubs that finished above them. That is a demonstration of the objectives of the draft being perverted.

The issues are:

• worst teams not getting access to the best talent because of academies (some league benefit) and father-sons (no benefit)
• players making free agency decisions on considerations other than money (which you fix my making the money irresistible and changing the timeframe)

The automatic priority picks, which worked towards the objectives of the draft and not against it, would be fine for me as a makeweight against the academies and the father-son. It worked as far as the father-son rule was concerned in the 2000s (when every team made a preliminary final) and would work again.

Why would Brisbane draft a player that might be best available talent but doesn’t want to move from Victoria? It’s irrelevant whether we can renegotiate after the initial contract runs its course.

 

[The Punter]

Why would Brisbane draft a player than might be best available talent but doesn’t want to move from Victoria?

Because he wants to play football for a living? The league has rules about draft tampering that need to be enforced.

Once you have him in you then convince him to stay.

There are fixable issues and unfixable issues. Without a major tectonic incident Brisbane will remain around 1700km North of Melbourne.

 

[Elixuh]

Because he wants to play football for a living? The league has rules about draft tampering that need to be enforced.

Once you have him in you then convince him to stay.

There are fixable issues and unfixable issues. Without a major tectonic incident Brisbane will remain around 1700km North of Melbourne.

lol. But he can play football for a living by being taken by the very next VFL club that has a pick in the draft…ie over half the teams in the national comp.

We are back where we started. The answer you’re avoiding is this can’t be solved. Your solution is yeah just draft him and convince him to stay. Fred Bassett is that you?

 

[The Punter]

lol. But he can play football for a living by being taken by the very next VFL club that has a pick in the draft…ie over half the teams in the national comp.

We are back where we started. The answer you’re avoiding is this can’t be solved. Your solution is yeah just draft him and convince him to stay. Fred Bassett is that you?

Brisbane's geography cannot be solved. It will remain somewhere between Surfer's Paradise and Noosa. I've offered solutions to list management, but if the draft isn't distributing the best talent to the worst clubs on entry into the league regardless of geography, it doesn't serve much purpose at all. There are more efficient ways of granting players access into the league if you don't care about equity of talent.

BTW abolishing existing Victorian teams would be bad for the league as significant amounts of supporters would turn away from footy. Fitzroy had 7800 members in 1996, the smallest Victorian club would now have 6 times that number. A huge number would abandon the game.

 

[Elixuh]

Brisbane's geography cannot be solved. It will remain somewhere between Surfer's Paradise and Noosa. I've offered solutions to list management, but if the draft isn't distributing the best talent to the worst clubs on entry into the league regardless of geography, it doesn't serve much purpose at all. There are more efficient ways of granting players access into the league if you don't care about equity of talent.

BTW abolishing existing Victorian teams would be bad for the league as significant amounts of supporters would turn away from footy. Fitzroy had 7800 members in 1996, the smallest Victorian club would now have 6 times that number. A huge number would abandon the game.

Precisely!

Which is why you need a range of inequalities which balance each other out.

We keep coming full circle!