Autopsy St.Kilda v North Melbourne - Practice Game

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Stewart66

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It's entirely possible that North's yoof is indeed better than ours (say those born in 1998 and later, so 23yo this year and younger):

Simpkin, LDU, Thomas, Phillips, Larkey, Powell, Zurhaar, Stephenson, Taylor, Scott, etc

v

King, Clark, Coffield, Higgins, Battle, Paton, Bytel, Highmore, etc

(A lot of that will come down to just us the how good King ends up.)

but the big difference between the two sides comes in that 24yo-this-year to 26yo bracket.

In that bracket they have of note:

L-Mac, Dumont, McKay

While we have:

Steele, Gresham, Marshall, Billings, Jones, Butler, Howard, Wilkie, Sinclair, Long, Lonie

Would just say club is really excited with Allison....the guy who takes to next level ...is

Battle.
 

Snake_Baker

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That one will hurt Sanke, isn't Allison the nephew of Brett Allison? Battle looked good the other day. Overshadowed by Mason Wood showing off but he looked really good up forward.

No, I believe that he is related to the Allison's from Coburg/Strathmore footy clubs. We would have had dibs on the kid if he was Fruity's kid.

There was talk that we were interested in him and he was keen to get to North, but it didn't pan out. These things happen. Good luck with him.

I suspect the Sainters are going to end up top heavy with quality talls down the track, so you never know what could happen.;) :D
 

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stavro#4

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Let's be frank, StKilda HAS undertaken a long & arduous rebuild since 2012, so it would be a failure on their behalf if they have not arrived at this point now.

North are currently about 2-3 years behind StKilda & I actually think that, King aside, North's youth is better.

I don't think this current StKilda side is as strong as the 2010 sides, but Richmond/Bulldogs have shown that you do not need a great list to win flags in this era.
I’ve watched a fair bit of north in the last few years as a close family member is a roo die hard.

I can appreciate the optimism that comes with a rebuild. Christ we blew our load over Spencer Whites one amazing highlight and we prayed to the footy gods a fat kid with diabetes and a soft skull would come good.

But the issues with rebuilds in this day and age are that for all the kids you have listed in your last few posts, good chance 50% of them will fall away and not make it at the level you hope.

LDU granted looks a freak and I wished we could of had him on our list. However you have very little key position talent and that is arguably the hardest list positions to fill.

Everyone has their own opinions and mine is quite simple. Max King is the best kid in the comp with potential to be the star man of the league.

Marshall we plucked from the middle of nowhere and is a top 10 ruckman in the league with his best attributes being a follower who impacts clearances plus his ability to have scoreboard impact.

Clark Coffield and Gresham all look like being elite footballers and each of them had a huge say in our rise up the ladder and again will be a key barometer on whether we improve again this season.

Higgins had huge raps before his head surgery and so far has looked every bit as good in our match sims as we could of hoped.

Plus we have Bytel - and I’m aware you know your tac kids. So I don’t need to introduce you to the level of talent he was before the back injury and you definitely saw his output in our practice match.

However, I think the days of the Hawthorn full rebuild win a flag with kids you draft is dead. In this day and age what is stopping anyone from grabbing LDU as you are in your way up?

You need to be able to sign proven talent and that still appears to be a question mark on your club.

Mine for being the rabble everyone likes to think it is, has had 2 massive recruitment hauls in the last 20 years. The first led to sustained success that paved the way for the grand final sides. The most recent one had us shoot up the ladder on the back of the likes of Howard ( Roos were very keen to sign him) and Butler who will be at Kilda footballers for some time and the resurgence of Ryder.

Not least Jack Steele, another we pipped you for - that we will take the credit of developing into a gun mid.

Again everyone has their own opinion. But you are pulling a long bow if you think year 2 of a rebuild you have better talent then us, considering ours is now delivering results and yours is all potential. A common mistake from most clubs is that stkilda has little talent. Yet we have drafted incredibly well of late + targeted younger players with proven ability and had significant success in developing them - which is the key to success with rebuilds these days (in my opinion).

This isn’t a crack at you either mate. More so a word of warning as to the pitfalls of a rebuild. This board has lived a long and lengthy one and would be a wise place for Roo supporters to learn from about the ups and downs of one.
 

Yawkey way

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Our true youth pile is pretty light on in comparison. For true young inexperienced talent I would say Battle, Clark, Coffield, Paton, Bytel, Byrnes, Clavarino, Leo Connelly and King are the proper youth. In comparison to sides like North they have a bigger pile to chose from and a few look really good already. We have targeted mature depth rather than rolling the dice on speculative kids.

Simpkin and Larkey look like they are going to be good and in Simpkin he's already looking top shelf. LDU is looking like he's as promising as any of our kids, Taryn Thomas hit the ground running like a 100 game player and has a huge scope for improvement, Curtis Taylor got a rising star nomination last year, Phillips is considered a top prospect and potential number one pick and took Eddie Ford and Lazzaro last year as well.

They did trade out a future first for pick 8 that could have nabbed Serong though so have made some mistakes and Pittard and Polec probably didn't have the desired effect and set things back a bit. You always rate your own more than others kids because you see their potential that others outside don't.
I watch them gringo and follow the draft closely, I rate what they‘ve managed to do.

I just think if you stopped at king, clark, coffield, Paton and bytel anything we get out of the others is a bonus. King is a freak once in a generation player, coffield, Clark and Patton are well on the way to A grade and I really rate Bytel.

North have us covered for numbers but imo our best 5 take some beating for a team that hasn’t had any father son or other gifts. North haven‘t gamed anything and I’m not knocking them but they have a couple of gifts in that group as well.

Im very happy with our youth, I think we’ve done extremely well with what we had in terms of draft picks.
 

stavro#4

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I watch them gringo and follow the draft closely, I rate what they‘ve managed to do.

I just think if you stopped at king, clark, coffield, Paton and bytel anything we get out of the others is a bonus. King is a freak once in a generation player, coffield, Clark and Patton are well on the way to A grade and I really rate Bytel.

North have us covered for numbers but imo our best 5 take some beating for a team that hasn’t had any father son or other gifts. North haven‘t gamed anything and I’m not knocking them but they have a couple of gifts in that group as well.

Im very happy with our youth, I think we’ve done extremely well with what we had in terms of draft picks.
The problem is that you can’t have a successful rebuild led by kids playing the majority of your 22.

We learnt that lesson.
 

BrutThough

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You always rate your own more than others kids because you see their potential that others outside don't.
Thats so true. I wouldn't swap Hunter Clark for anyone from the 2017 draft. He just has so many special qualities that you dont see in most players.

But North fans would feel the same way about LDU, Freo fans would feel the same about Cerra, Dogs fans and Naughton etc.
 

Snake_Baker

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I can appreciate the optimism that comes with a rebuild. Christ we blew our load over Spencer Whites one amazing highlight and we prayed to the footy gods a fat kid with diabetes and a soft skull would come good.
I remember seeing this kid when I was scouting Luke McDonald in the TAC cup. He had outrageous raw ability. My comment from March 2012:

1614389049062.png



LDU granted looks a freak and I wished we could of had him on our list. However you have very little key position talent and that is arguably the hardest list positions to fill.
We have good bookends for the next decade in Mckay & Larkey, and the club is very bullish about Charlie Comben who they have extended for 2 years without playing a senior game yet (see clip). There's also the school of thought that the days of more than 4 true KPP's seems to have come to an end.



Everyone has their own opinions and mine is quite simple. Max King is the best kid in the comp with potential to be the star man of the league.
I agree, but so was Nick Reiwoldt. I'd agree with this from a KPP perspective, but when was the last time a KPP was the most influential player in the game? Team defences have killed them.


Marshall we plucked from the middle of nowhere and is a top 10 ruckman in the league with his best attributes being a follower who impacts clearances plus his ability to have scoreboard impact.
Among the best young rucks in the comp, and why St Kilda seem to,want to make him a KPF is puzzling for me.

In this day and age what is stopping anyone from grabbing LDU as you are in your way up?
Hypotheticals are just that and history tells us that good players overwhelmingly stay put.

You need to be able to sign proven talent and that still appears to be a question mark on your club.
I wouldn't call Corr & Stephenson spuds, and I would certainly rate them ahead of Dougal Howard & Zak Jones as trades.

This isn’t a crack at you either mate. More so a word of warning as to the pitfalls of a rebuild. This board has lived a long and lengthy one and would be a wise place for Roo supporters to learn from about the ups and downs of one.
All good mate. I'm always happy to converse with an adult who puts some thought in to their comments.
 

Browny2Carlisle

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Let's be frank, StKilda HAS undertaken a long & arduous rebuild since 2012, so it would be a failure on their behalf if they have not arrived at this point now.

North are currently about 2-3 years behind StKilda & I actually think that, King aside, North's youth is better.

I don't think this current StKilda side is as strong as the 2010 sides, but Richmond/Bulldogs have shown that you do not need a great list to win flags in this era.
I think you should level your expectations a bit or you'll be in a world of disappointment.
 

Mstr Strokesman

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That one will hurt Sanke, isn't Allison the nephew of Brett Allison? Battle looked good the other day. Overshadowed by Mason Wood showing off but he looked really good up forward.
Really happy for Mason to play well but the true test is putting it all together every week.
Don't mean to sound a downer on the kids, but I see a lot of similarities to David Strooper.
Played well first game never to be seen again
 

stavro#4

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I remember seeing this kid when I was scouting Luke McDonald in the TAC cup. He had outrageous raw ability. My comment from March 2012:

View attachment 1066291



We have good bookends for the next decade in Mckay & Larkey, and the club is very bullish about Charlie Comben who they have extended for 2 years without playing a senior game yet (see clip). There's also the school of thought that the days of more than 4 true KPP's seems to have come to an end.





I agree, but so was Nick Reiwoldt. I'd agree with this from a KPP perspective, but when was the last time a KPP was the most influential player in the game? Team defences have killed them.




Among the best young rucks in the comp, and why St Kilda seem to,want to make him a KPF is puzzling for me.



Hypotheticals are just that and history tells us that good players overwhelmingly stay put.



I wouldn't call Corr & Stephenson spuds, and I would certainly rate them ahead of Dougal Howard & Zak Jones as trades.



All good mate. I'm always happy to converse with an adult who puts some thought in to their comments.
Ahh and this is where we differ.

I don’t rate Stephenson. Bloke is scared of his shadow. Runs one way.

Corr isn’t bad. But I think Howard again brings so much more to our club with his leadership + has a very underrated offensive game for a key defender. There was a few times he would grab the ball from congestion and go on a run.

Roo supporters talk up Larkey highly. I dare say stkilda fans would think Battle has both shown more and is a better prospect.

It’s interesting as for all your top mids you have recruited. Surely you worry about the black hole you will have come your way when Goldy goes?
 

gringo2011

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I watch them gringo and follow the draft closely, I rate what they‘ve managed to do.

I just think if you stopped at king, clark, coffield, Paton and bytel anything we get out of the others is a bonus. King is a freak once in a generation player, coffield, Clark and Patton are well on the way to A grade and I really rate Bytel.

North have us covered for numbers but imo our best 5 take some beating for a team that hasn’t had any father son or other gifts. North haven‘t gamed anything and I’m not knocking them but they have a couple of gifts in that group as well.

Im very happy with our youth, I think we’ve done extremely well with what we had in terms of draft picks.

But we know what ours are like, he's seeing his good kids the same way we see ours. Outside your own club you only get to see snippets of what developing players are like. I think we have quality over quantity now which is nice but we probably need to start balancing the youth and experience soon or the depth will start to go out with nothing behind it. We have had to patch up the age profile of the list due to poor drafting between about 2003 and 2015, it takes list spots and picks. I think Aussierulesrules hit the nail on the head with them it's their mid career players that are missing, they might have to do what we did and start buying the generation up.
 

gringo2011

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Really happy for Mason to play well but the true test is putting it all together every week.
Don't mean to sound a downer on the kids, but I see a lot of similarities to David Strooper.
Played well first game never to be seen again
He looked great but his big test will be backing it up. North fans have been frustrated by him in the past.
 

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Snake_Baker

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Ahh and this is where we differ.

I don’t rate Stephenson. Bloke is scared of his shadow. Runs one way.

Corr isn’t bad. But I think Howard again brings so much more to our club with his leadership + has a very underrated offensive game for a key defender. There was a few times he would grab the ball from congestion and go on a run.

Roo supporters talk up Larkey highly. I dare say stkilda fans would think Battle has both shown more and is a better prospect.
Fair enough.

It’s interesting as for all your top mids you have recruited. Surely you worry about the black hole you will have come your way when Goldy goes?
Yes, it's a significant issue.

Xerri is a forward-ruck and a very good palmer of the ball, but I reckon he's under-equipped for centre square duties (leap).

I suspect North will trade for one.

You can get by with a serviceable ruckman and a quality midfield (Nankervis/Mumford), but a top shelf one is definitely better.
 

stfan

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The problem is that you can’t have a successful rebuild led by kids playing the majority of your 22.

We learnt that lesson.

The problem of kids only is that it guarantees, unless you get huge leg ups like the GWS and Suns have had, that you are most unlikely to have enough good talent playing in their good years at once.

Kids plus bringing in mature talent if time right can give you the ability to get that those peak years overlapping. ie Young talent having emerged, and old talent not too old.

This is also how St Kilda became a a very good team in the naughties.
 

stavro#4

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Fair enough.



Yes, it's a significant issue.

Xerri is a forward-ruck and a very good palmer of the ball, but I reckon he's under-equipped for centre square duties (leap).

I suspect North will trade for one.

You can get by with a serviceable ruckman and a quality midfield (Nankervis/Mumford), but a top shelf one is definitely better.
You can get away with a serviceable ruck and a great midfield. But I believe you would need a gun tall forward for balance.

No way you achieve anything without either a star ruck or forward. Possibly a bridge too far.

I thought you boys would have also pushed a Cunnington trade in 19’.

Ripe for a top 10 pick. There would have been a few clubs willing to pay for a gun inside mid aswell.

True story, Our ex skipper and current assistant raves about Cunnington. Thought he was a top 5 mid in the league 2 years ago.
 

stavro#4

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The problem of kids only is that it guarantees, unless you get huge leg ups like the GWS and Suns have had, that you are most unlikely to have enough good talent playing in their good years at once.

Kids plus bringing in mature talent if time right can give you the ability to get that those peak years overlapping. ie Young talent having emerged, and old talent not too old.

This is also how St Kilda became a a very good team in the naughties.
It does.

I wonder whether having a generational key forward come through the draft also makes players salivate at the thought.
 

Snake_Baker

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He looked great but his big test will be backing it up. North fans have been frustrated by him in the past.

I'll concede sgtraight up that tactics were the reason. Most on the North board wouldn't, but like most supporters on all club boards, they don't put that much thought in to it.

Ultimately trading Mason was good for all parties as we have to focus on Larkey, Comben, Stephenson, Zurhaar, Taylor, Thomas & Mahony now.

While I mention it, keep an eye on Jack Mahony. The kid has serious football smarts and was the youngest player to debut in the AFL last year. It just remains to be seen whether he can bring his athletic ability up to scratch.
 

Snake_Baker

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I thought you boys would have also pushed a Cunnington trade in 19’.

Ripe for a top 10 pick. There would have been a few clubs willing to pay for a gun inside mid aswell.
Would you have copped a top 10 pick for Lenny Hayes? Some things are off limits mate.
 

CaptainRisky

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No, I believe that he is related to the Allison's from Coburg/Strathmore footy clubs. We would have had dibs on the kid if he was Fruity's kid.

There was talk that we were interested in him and he was keen to get to North, but it didn't pan out. These things happen. Good luck with him.

I suspect the Sainters are going to end up top heavy with quality talls down the track, so you never know what could happen.;) :D
Not so sure that's true at all , a good friend of mine is very close mates with his dad and he told me he was stoked the saints took him
 

gringo2011

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I remember seeing this kid when I was scouting Luke McDonald in the TAC cup. He had outrageous raw ability. My comment from March 2012:

View attachment 1066291




We have good bookends for the next decade in Mckay & Larkey, and the club is very bullish about Charlie Comben who they have extended for 2 years without playing a senior game yet (see clip). There's also the school of thought that the days of more than 4 true KPP's seems to have come to an end.





I agree, but so was Nick Reiwoldt. I'd agree with this from a KPP perspective, but when was the last time a KPP was the most influential player in the game? Team defences have killed them.




Among the best young rucks in the comp, and why St Kilda seem to,want to make him a KPF is puzzling for me.



Hypotheticals are just that and history tells us that good players overwhelmingly stay put.



I wouldn't call Corr & Stephenson spuds, and I would certainly rate them ahead of Dougal Howard & Zak Jones as trades.



All good mate. I'm always happy to converse with an adult who puts some thought in to their comments.

Stephenson has raw talent to burn but looked lost last year, he was as good as any kid as far as dominating the TAC in his draft year. I think if he gets it together he could be anything. I have heard that they are going to give him more on ball time which should suit. He's still slight though, he looks like some meat would be handy if he does move in there. Corr is good but his body has let him down a lot in the past. I've always kept an eye on his career because of his brother playing at the Saints, his career has been pretty frustrating so far.
 

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Okay, then I should view anything less than a 100 point loss to StKilda in the H&A season as a bad outing for the saints.

If North get within 40 points then you should probably sack the coach.
Yeh we probably should. Sorry but it's just unrealistic to think North are going to be anything but cellar dwellers for the next couple of years. It takes time for kids to mature and it can take even longer for a gameplan to develop. You have some decent kids but they're not stars yet and no guarantees.
 

Jade Buddha

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The problem with seeking balance in the discussion is that it tends to be misconstrued by the parochial in a defensive manner, which is not its intention.

AFL discussion boards involve a significant representation of inexperienced parochial contributors who are incapable of understanding the nuances of the sport, and who get ultra defensive the moment any significant factors are presented.

This practice match didn't reveal anything definitive to me. There was just too much data left out of the match.

How do I think the sides will go in 2021?

I reckon StKilda should be aiming for 5th/6th all going well, and they could go deep in to the finals. They are probably not top tier at the moment, but they are next tier.

North's best could be 8 wins and I reckon we will have had a bad season if we can't snag 5 wins, but we're far from the basket case that the misleading 2020 season would have some believe. I suspect we will emerge as the team we are going to become this year. At some point the kids will all click and the football myopics will be able to see.

Injuries, of course, will play a massive role in any outcomes.
Nothing defensive at all in my comments
I was just pointing out that your argument that you were missing a pile of midfielders was void in the fact that so were saints.
If you then throw in a sarcastic comment you’re likely to get a response like mine.
 

Armoooo

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Would you have copped a top 10 pick for Lenny Hayes? Some things are off limits mate.
Just to respond to the general gist of your comments, I don't know much about North's kids other than LDU and Thomas. However, it is not entirely accurate to say St Kilda have been rebuilding since we last made finals.

From 2011-2013 we plummeted hard, but due to the expansion teams hoarding all the top end talent we had to make do with the scraps. Ultimately we put together a list carried by Armitage, Steven and an aging Riewoldt and Montagna. This group peaked in 2017 when they beat Richmond around round 16 when we smashed Richmond and looked destined for a finals push. Ultimately, the wheels fell off, the loss of Joey and Roo hurt more than expected and guys like Newnes, Weller, Webster and co. Stagnated or regressed.

When we had a shift in the footy department we essentially started from scratch.

It could be argued that our current rebuild started with the drafting of Coffield, Clark and Paton, with King and Bytel being drafted the following year.

To give you an idea of how rapid a transition our list has undertaken, we only have 15 players still on our list that were there in 2017 and they can be split into three categories...

Players who were and still are best 22: Gresh (first year on 2017), Ross, Steele (first year at club in 2017), Billings, Sinclair, Membrey

Players who are no longer best 22: Webster, Roberton, Carlisle, Geary, Lonie

Players who were on the list but have developed to best 22: Long, Marshall, Battle

The team that won a final was really just the result of a thee year rebuild complimented with some great mature recruits.
 

Snake_Baker

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Just to respond to the general gist of your comments, I don't know much about North's kids other than LDU and Thomas. However, it is not entirely accurate to say St Kilda have been rebuilding since we last made finals.
I agree to some extent, there was some emergence around 2016-2017, but for various reasons it couldn't be sustained.
 

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