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Trying to justify any claims that Richmond had already established a tradition of playing on ANZAC Day. Below are the Richmond games played on ANZAC Day, excluding rounds where every team played on that day. Other teams only want to play because the crowds have been big, likewise Essendon and Collingwood want to keep it because they have made it what it is.

Richmond have had the opening game of the season for the last 5 years (GWS v Syd doesn't count) and averaged a crowd of about 74,000. That is a great tradition and I hope it stays. All teams are able to truly create their own traditions and they should do so. North Melbourne, Footscray and Melbourne all made finals in 1994. If two of those clubs played ANZAC Day in 1995, then again in 1996 and 1997 ..., would it have grown to what it is today? I very much doubt it. How many big home and away crowds have these teams played against each other?

Code: 
[B]Year R Ho Aw Crowd Venue
-------------------------------------------[/B]
1961 3 Ri Sy 27650 Punt Road Oval
1963 2 Sy Ri 25700 Lakeside Oval
1966 1 Ca Ri 43018 Princes Park
1968 3 Ri Ge 52115 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1972 5 Ri Me 38154 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1973 4 Ri NM 48923 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1977 4 Ri Co 92436 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1978 5 Ri Me 34212 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1979 4 Me Ri 44708 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1980 5 Ri Fi 44401 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1983 5 Ri WB 51651 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1984 5 Ri Es 55141 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1987 5 Ri Sy 22154 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1988 4 Ri Ge 27417 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1989 4 Ri Ha 41347 Waverley Park
1990 5 Ri Fi 23078 Melbourne Cricket Ground
1994 5 St Ri 37870 Waverley Park
 
red+black said:
If two of those clubs played ANZAC Day in 1995, then again in 1996 and 1997 ..., would it have grown to what it is today? I very much doubt it. How many big home and away crowds have these teams played against each other?
Click to expand...

Not that I think the stats board is the place to discuss whether or not other teams should get a crack at ANZAC Day... but I guess your argument relies on whether you think crowd size or popularity of the day are important when saying who gets to play on the day or not.

To me, the day would be an honour to play on, regardless of the outcome of the match, and it shouldn't be the exclusive realm of Essendon and Collingwood, because regardless of the marketing event that the day has turned into, it wasn't as though ANZAC Day football was created in 1995 and Richmond seemingly did have a tradition of standalone games on ANZAC Day, regardless of crowd sizes.

Also, the perverse part of me that likes to think of "what ifs" keeps asking if the 1995 match was a 10-goal flogging instead of a draw, would the same two teams have been able to play in 1996? Or would they have rotated the teams.
 
My main aim here is stats gathering, and I think we all know a little more now about who has played on ANZAC Day and when.
UpForGrabs said:
it shouldn't be the exclusive realm
Click to expand...
West Coast gets a guaranteed two games against Fremantle. Same goes for Brisbane and Gold Coast, Sydney and Western Sydney. We have a fixture not a draw. There are quirks. But I have no doubt change will come and by then I won't be overly concerned. If they make it the top two Victorian teams from the previous year play at the MCG, that would be fine. I'd be eager to watch Geelong v Collingwood today.

UpForGrabs said:
Also, the perverse part of me that likes to think of "what ifs" keeps asking if the 1995 match was a 10-goal flogging instead of a draw, would the same two teams have been able to play in 1996? Or would they have rotated the teams.
Click to expand...
I agree. 95000, a draw, Rocca going nuts, all made the day what it was.

UpForGrabs said:
Richmond seemingly did have a tradition of standalone games on ANZAC Day
Click to expand...
Richmond's only standalone game on ANZAC Day was in 1994 against St Kilda at Waverley.
 
red+black said:
My main aim here is stats gathering, and I think we all know a little more now about who has played on ANZAC Day and when.
Click to expand...

Fair enough - cheers for that.

red+black said:
West Coast gets a guaranteed two games against Fremantle. Same goes for Brisbane and Gold Coast, Sydney and Western Sydney. We have a fixture not a draw. There are quirks. But I have no doubt change will come and by then I won't be overly concerned. If they make it the top two Victorian teams from the previous year play at the MCG, that would be fine. I'd be eager to watch Geelong v Collingwood today.
Click to expand...

My feelings of the fixture (which is more the apt word) have been public here for a while. We either play everyone twice in a year (impossible now with 18 teams), we reduce the size of the season (would never happen) or we have a fixture which is even over a number of years. I think it's ridiculous that the league doctors the fixture for maximum crowd size and publicity while sacrificing evenness.

Everyone is making a fuss of the Crows and North playing GC and GWS twice each this season, but no-one's bringing up that for instance if Collingwood finished top of the ladder last season and the bottom three spots were held by Melbourne, Essendon and Carlton then Collingwood would still be fixtured to play six games out of 22 against the bottom three teams from the previous season because the league's obsessed with crowd maximisation and rivalries.

red+black said:
I agree. 95000, a draw, Rocca going nuts, all made the day what it was.
Click to expand...

Great game. Was watching on my couch.
 

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kosifantutti said:
I believe that Trevor Barker has the unenviable record of most games played (230) without playing a final.

Who played the most number of games before their first final. Off the top of my head I thought Bob Skilton might do it. I think his first final was game 218. Has anyone beaten that?

Chris Newman wouldn't be far away from either record.
Click to expand...

red+black said:
http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/alltime/misc_players.html#11
Click to expand...
I want to know about players who played many games BEFORE their first final. That table only covers those who have never played a final.
 
kosifantutti said:
I want to know about players who played many games BEFORE their first final. That table only covers those who have never played a final.
Click to expand...
I know. I only answered the part of your post that I quoted. The other part of your post, which I didn't quote, will have to be left to the Stats Masters.

I don't have the tools at my disposal that the other guys do. Only answered what I could.
 
kosifantutti said:
I want to know about players who played many games BEFORE their first final.
Click to expand...

Code: 
Ma# Player                Year Rd Club(s)  CMa CF
-------------------------------------------------
270 Flower, Robert        1987 EF Me       272  3
243 Murphy, John F.       1979 QF Fi,Sy,NM 246  1
238 Alves, Stan           1977 QF Me,NM    266 11
233 Wells, Greg T.        1980 QF Me,Ca    267  4
221 Carter, Rod           1986 QF Fi,Sy    293  4
218 Skilton, Bob          1970 SF Sy       237  1
204 Magee, Stuart         1974 EF Sy,WB    216  1
192 Merrigan, Harvey      1979 EF Fi       197  2
188 Bisset, George        1973 SF WB,Co    207  2
184 Curcio, Frank         1943 SF Fi       249  4
183 Irwin, Warwick        1979 EF Fi,Co,Fi 229  6
178 Greene, Russell       1982 QF St,Ha    304 20
177 Morwood, Tony         1986 QF Sy       229  4
175 Morrison, Alby        1938 SF WB       224  3
175 Ackerly, David        1987 EF Sy,NM    191  1
173 Findlay, Bill         1945 SF WB,NM    173  1
170 McGuinness, Tony      1993 EF WB,Ad    222  3
167 Frawley, Danny        1991 EF St       240  2
166 Lewis, Johnny Francis 1936 SF NM,Me    196  4
166 Wilson, Garry         1979 EF Fi       268  7
165 Kappler, Darren       1996 QF Fi,Sy,Ha 187  1
165 Paxman, Stephen       1999 QF Fi,PA    240  7
162 Evans, Bernie         1986 QF Sy,Ca    185  6
162 Parker, Shane         2003 EF Fr       238  4
159 Thorpe, David         1974 SF WB,Ri    178  2
157 Merrington, Gary      1974 EF WB       174  1
156 Grigg, Dick           1912 SF Ge       194  3
155 Roberts, Neil         1961 SF St       169  1
155 Armstrong, Mathew     1995 QF Fi,NM    175  4
152 Edmond, Jim           1985 QF WB,Sy,Br 188  4
152 Hawkins, Doug         1985 QF WB,Fi    350  6
152 Lambert, Craig        1995 QF Ri,Br    219  8
151 Healy, Gerard         1986 QF Me,Sy    211  4
151 Knights, Matthew      1995 QF Ri       279  6
150 Crowe, Neville        1967 SF Ri       150  1
150 Lynch, Alastair       1996 QF Fi,Br    306 20
 
worbod said:
What are the highest losing margins experienced by players who received three Brownlow votes in a game?
Click to expand...

Code: 
Ma Player              Cb Year Rd Op
------------------------------------
65 Williams, Greg      Ge 1985  3 WB
60 McGregor, Anthony   Fi 1994 22 Ri
59 Bain, David         Br 1990  8 WC
57 Ablett junior, Gary GC 2011  8 Ad
55 Millane, Darren     Co 1987 20 Ne
54 Dwyer, Mick         St 1989  5 Es
53 Judd, Chris         Ca 2010  6 Co
52 Buckley, Nathan     Co 1998 14 Br
51 Goodes, Adam        Sy 2009  7 Ge
50 Tzatzaris, Zeno     WB 1989 19 Ge
50 King, Clinton       Co 1999  4 Ri
50 Ablett junior, Gary GC 2011 15 Fr
48 Hughes, Danny R.    Me 1987 14 Fi
47 Lockett, Tony       St 1987  4 Me
47 Carey, Wayne        NM 1992 20 WB
46 Kelly, Paul         Sy 1992 19 WB
46 Daniher, Chris      Es 1992 24 Ge
45 Shaw, Tony          Co 1985 21 WB
45 Hanna, Mil          Ca 1991  4 Me
45 Holland, Nick       Ha 1995 21 NM
44 Knights, Matthew    Ri 1993  3 WC
44 McAdam, Gilbert     Br 1995 12 NM
43 Mossop, John        Ge 1984  8 Es
43 Greig, Keith        NM 1984 15 Me
43 Buckley, Nathan     Br 1993  7 Ha
42 Kickett, Derek      Sy 1995 11 Ha
41 Cunningham, Geoff   St 1985 18 Ha
41 Bradley, Craig      Ca 1997 18 Ad
41 West, Scott         WB 2004 14 Fr
41 Moloney, Brent      Me 2010 11 Ca
40 Pike, Martin        Fi 1996 16 Co
40 Hall, Ray           Ri 2002 22 Sy
 
Bluish said:
1) Jason Blake from St Kilda is widely known as the player to have played the most games for no Brownlow votes, but who has kicked the most goals and never received a vote?

2) North had 15 goalkickers against GWS in round 2, is this a club record?
Click to expand...

Anyone? :cool:
 
Following on from the question from Bluish.

Most goalkickers for one team is 16. But what's the most players that have kicked 2 goals for one team? 3 goals? 4? etc.
 
The most goals without a Brownlow vote, technically, is Dick Lee (707), whose career was played before the Brownlow was instituted.

After looking at the AFL Tables list of all players with over 200 goals, the "winner" would have to be Ted Johnson (385 goals), who played for South Melbourne between 1923 and 1931. This means 8 of his 9 seasons were able to attract Brownlow votes.

Jimmy Freake (442 goals from 1912-1924) played one season in which he could garner votes without doing so.

Don't know who has the most goals without a vote for a career which has occurred exclusively during Brownlow seasons, but they would have less than 200 goals.
 

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red+black said:
Following on from the question from Bluish.

Most goalkickers for one team is 16. But what's the most players that have kicked 2 goals for one team? 3 goals? 4? etc.
Click to expand...

Code: 
G Pl Cb Year Rd Op Goalkickers
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 11 Sy 1987 17 Es Capper 6, Wright 5, Healy 4, Bayes, Mitchell, Neagle, Scott 3, Browning, Hawke, T.Morwood, Thripp 2
3  7 WB 1977  6 Es Templeton 5, Jennings, Morrison 4, Dunstan, Edmond, Huppatz, Low 3
     Fi 1979 17 Me Beecroft 10, Irwin 5, Conlan, Quinlan 4, Allan, Walls, Wilson 3
     Sy 1979 18 WB Morrison, P.Morwood, T.Morwood, Round 4, Fields, Quade, Smith 3
     Sy 1987 17 Es Capper 6, Wright 5, Healy 4, Bayes, Mitchell, Neagle, Scott 3
     Ge 1989  2 WC Morgan 5, Brownless 4, Bairstow, Cameron, Couch, G.Hocking, Scott 3
     Ge 2007  6 Ri N.Ablett, Chapman, Hawkins, Mackie 4, G.Ablett, Ling, Varcoe 3
4  5 Ha 1991  6 Fi Allan, Jarman 7, Dunstall 6, Hudson 5, Condon 4
5  4 Me 1958 17 St Barassi, Crompton, Johnson, Webb 5
     Ha 1991  6 Fi Allan, Jarman 7, Dunstall 6, Hudson 5
6  3 WB 1946 18 Ha Collins 9, Thoms, Ware 6
     Ca 1971 17 Sy Gallagher, Jesaulenko 7, Barrot 6
     Ca 1972 GF Ri Jesaulenko 7, Nicholls, Walls 6
     Ha 1977 15 Ge Hendrie, Hudson 8, Matthews 7
     Fi 1983 13 NM Rendell 8, Conlan, Quinlan 7
     Ge 1987  5 Fi Lindner, Turner 7, Brownless 6
     Ha 1991  6 Fi Allan, Jarman 7, Dunstall 6
7  3 Ha 1977 15 Ge Hudson, Hendrie 8, Matthews 7
     Fi 1983 13 NM Rendell 8, Conlan, Quinlan 7
8  2 Ri 1931  2 NM D.Strang 14, Titus 8
     Ca 1939 15 WB Baxter, Schmidt 8
     Ha 1977 15 Ge Hendrie, Hudson 8
     NM 1993  6 Sy McAdam 10, Longmire 9
     Br 1993  8 Sy Merrett, Murphy 8
     Ha 1993 17 Sy Dunstall 9, Hudson 8
     Me 1993 21 Ri Jakovich, Lovell 8
9  2 NM 1993  6 Sy McAdam 10, Longmire 9
 
worbod said:
The most goals without a Brownlow vote, technically, is Dick Lee (707), whose career was played before the Brownlow was instituted.

After looking at the AFL Tables list of all players with over 200 goals, the "winner" would have to be Ted Johnson (385 goals), who played for South Melbourne between 1923 and 1931. This means 8 of his 9 seasons were able to attract Brownlow votes.

Jimmy Freake (442 goals from 1912-1924) played one season in which he could garner votes without doing so.

Don't know who has the most goals without a vote for a career which has occurred exclusively during Brownlow seasons, but they would have less than 200 goals.
Click to expand...

Further to the above...Most goals scored in Brownlow-eligible matches without a career vote:

Code: 
Gls Player             BMa Club(s)    Career  CGl CMa
-----------------------------------------------------
333 Johnson, Ted E.    118 Sy       1923-1931 385 136
184 Davie, Harry        56 Me,Ca    1924-1928 186  58
177 Dummett, Bob        71 Ri       1954-1961 199  77
164 Sudholz, John       80 Sy       1966-1971 176  86
152 Shelton, Jack F.    57 St       1925-1928 152  57
138 Watts, Ray          54 Es       1937-1941 149  59
135 Ryan, Jack L.       66 Ha       1929-1933 142  70
129 Dunn senior, Harvey 66 Ca       1924-1929 139  71
127 Fisher, Brad        99 Ca       2003-2010 127  99
123 Love, Jason         67 NM,Sy    1986-1992 123  68
119 Rayson, Arthur      92 Ge       1924-1931 127 101
114 Hunter, Kingsley    99 Fr,WB,Ha 1995-2003 115 100
110 Schultz, Graeme     71 Es       1971-1983 115  77
106 Moyes, Harry        47 St,Me    1915-1927 234 106
104 Burke, Gerald       80 Ca       1953-1960 113  87
104 Farrant, Doug       66 NM       1968-1973 110  70
102 Gillett, Ian       126 Sy       1951-1958 112 135
101 Dowling, W. John    62 NM,WB    1927-1933 108  66

Bear in mind that only one vote (for BOG) was awarded in matches played 1924-30.
 
As usual RTB, you go above and beyond :thumbsu:

I would have never guessed that the record number of players to kick two goals for a side was 11. I remember that match where the Swans killed us. I ended up baracking for them and was wishing they'd kick more and more goals. I was disgusted with our effort that day.

All of the figures are quite amazing. Imagine three players kicking 7 goals or five players kicking 4 goals! And wasn't 1993 a year! Four games where two players on the same team kicked 8 or more goals each!
 
In relation to the most goals in a career without attracting any Brownlow votes, the most goals in a home and away season which did not receive any votes are:


118 Gordon Coventry Collingwood 1929
104 Gordon Coventry Collingwood 1930
.91 Doug Wade . . . North Melb .1974
.90 Doug Wade . . . Geelong . . 1972
.88 Sel Murray . . .North Melb .1941
.83 Jack Moriarty . Fitzroy . . 1927
.78 Gordon Coventry Collingwood 1928
.77 Gordon Coventry Collingwood 1935
 

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the norm smith started in 1979. Was there a recognised award before this? maybe a newspaper or similar.

I'm sure there was also a recognised award before the brownlow as well but can't figure out what it was called? (Champion of the Land?)
 
mHmmm said:
Was pondering something lately just how often it occurrs when a team wins a game but only wins the scoring in 1 quarter. i.e. they win for instance the 2nd quarter but lose quarters 1, 3, and 4 yet still win the game.
Click to expand...

Has happened at least once every year for the past 60.

Code: 
Year TM M   Year  TM M   Year  TM  M   Year  TM M   Year  TM M
---------   ----------   -----------   ----------   ----------
1897 62 0   1921  76 2   1944 112  1   1967 112 4   1990 161 4
1898 70 2   1922  76 2   1945 124  5   1968 124 2   1991 172 6
1899 69 0   1923  76 3   1946 119  0   1969 124 3   1992 172 6
1900 70 1   1924  78 1   1947 118  7   1970 136 4   1993 157 1
1901 71 3   1925 106 3   1948 119  4   1971 136 2   1994 174 9
1902 72 0   1926 112 4   1949 118  3   1972 139 4   1995 185 1
1903 71 0   1927 111 1   1950 112  6   1973 138 4   1996 185 4
1904 71 3   1928 112 5   1951 112  0   1974 138 5   1997 185 5
1905 72 0   1929 112 2   1952 118  4   1975 138 1   1998 185 7
1906 71 0   1930 112 2   1953 112  3   1976 138 7   1999 185 5
1907 71 0   1931 112 2   1954 112  5   1977 139 3   2000 185 4
1908 93 2   1932 112 2   1955 112  4   1978 138 3   2001 185 6
1909 94 2   1933 112 2   1956 112  2   1979 138 1   2002 185 2
1910 94 0   1934 112 4   1957 112 10   1980 138 3   2003 185 7
1911 93 1   1935 112 4   1958 112  2   1981 138 4   2004 185 4
1912 94 1   1936 112 3   1959 112  2   1982 138 6   2005 185 8
1913 94 1   1937 112 1   1960 112  4   1983 138 6   2006 185 1
1914 94 2   1938 112 3   1961 112  3   1984 138 3   2007 185 3
1915 76 1   1939 112 6   1962 113  4   1985 138 3   2008 185 5
1916 28 5   1940 112 2   1963 112  2   1986 138 2   2009 185 4
1917 49 3   1941 112 4   1964 112  4   1987 160 6   2010 186 4
1918 59 0   1942  84 3   1965 112  4   1988 160 2   2011 196 6
1919 76 2   1943  84 3   1966 112  4   1989 160 5   2012  40 0
1920 76 2

WLLL (won 1st quarter, lost the rest): 75
LWLL: 108
LLWL: 98
LLLW: 82
 
Thanks for that. It's more common than I would have thought but assumed it'd happen a couple of times a year. As an added for the last 5 or so years is it possible you could show each clubs tally? Curious to see if it is even across the board or if the more prominent clubs have blown away sides 1 quarter and taken the foot of the rest, so to speak.
 
mHmmm said:
Thanks for that. It's more common than I would have thought but assumed it'd happen a couple of times a year. As an added for the last 5 or so years is it possible you could show each clubs tally? Curious to see if it is even across the board or if the more prominent clubs have blown away sides 1 quarter and taken the foot of the rest, so to speak.
Click to expand...

From 2007:
4 Carlton
3 St.Kilda
2 Brisbane, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond, Western Bulldogs
1 Geelong, Gold Coast, Port Adelaide, Sydney, West Coast

Against:
3 Fremantle
2 Adelaide, Hawthorn, Port Adelaide, St.Kilda, Sydney, Western Bulldogs
1 Carlton, Essendon, Geelong, Gold Coast, Melbourne, North Melbourne, West Coast
 
Thanks for the answers to my quustions re goalkickers/brownlow votes, much appreciated.

Another one:

With the outside chance that Melbourne VS GWS in RD13 could be a match between 2 winless sides (considering Melbourne's horror run of matches coming up), what is the latest round in a season there has been a match between sides yet to win a game?
 
St Oxley said:
the norm smith started in 1979. Was there a recognised award before this? maybe a newspaper or similar.

I'm sure there was also a recognised award before the brownlow as well but can't figure out what it was called? (Champion of the Land?)
Click to expand...

In 1951 Geelong's Bernie Smith received the Bert Franks award for best on ground in the Grand Final.

In 1952 Geelong's Geoff Williams in his debut season, received the Bert Franks award for best on ground in the Grand Final.

The Bert Franks award was donated in his memory by his widow. There is no evidence of it being awarded after 1952.

Do a search for 'Bert Franks' to find out more.
 

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