Stats questions

[Gibbsy]

The fact that we can never go back to having crowds in excess of 110,000 or even 105,000 at the MCG does not mean modern-day grand final attendances have an asterisk beside them. The AFL Record Season Guide does not put an asterisk next to their grand final figures, Paul's AFL Tables website does not use asterisks either, so I would therefore ask: in what context are there asterisks next to modern-day grand final figures? Who is using asterisks in this sense?

I can't remember now, it may have been more of a thing around the time of the redevelopment. I just remember seeing, say, a list of grand finals and there being asterisks or hash signs next to some totals with a legend denoting 'capacity reduced due to MCG redevelopment'

 

[footyfan1978]

I can't remember now, it may have been more of a thing around the time of the redevelopment. I just remember seeing, say, a list of grand finals and there being asterisks or hash signs next to some totals with a legend denoting 'capacity reduced due to MCG redevelopment'

1990 grand final and maybe 2004 as such and 1991 was at Waverley Park so that in itself a big asterix for grand final capacity.

 

[Strauchanside]

1990 Grand Final (98,944) was basically at full capacity, the old Southern Stand just didn't have a roof.

 

[Derby103]

1990 Grand Final (98,944) was basically at full capacity, the old Southern Stand just didn't have a roof.

Spectators had been discouraged from sitting on the Southern Stand roof for a few years before that. The corragated iron had become badly rusted, so there was a danger of falling right through the roof.

 

[worbod]

1990 grand final and maybe 2004 as such and 1991 was at Waverley Park so that in itself a big asterix for grand final capacity.

Sorry but I love a good typo.

 

[Connor7395]

Going by names on AFL Tables, what's the longest player name chain you can come up with?
The best I've managed to come up with is a 22-chain: Brandon Jack George Anthony Darcy Cameron Bruce Andrew Graham Arthur Luke Donald Don Scott Russell Campbell Heath James Stewart Duncan Lindsay Ellis Hicks

Brandon Jack (Sydney: 2013-2015, 2017)
Jack George (Collingwood: 1930-1931, St. Kilda: 1931-1935, South Melbourne: 1936)
George Anthony (Footscray: 1926-1927)
Anthony Darcy (Geelong: 1992, Footscray: 1993-1994, St. Kilda: 1996)
Darcy Cameron (Sydney: 2018, Collingwood: 2020-present)
Cameron Bruce (Melbourne: 2000-2010, Hawthorn: 2011-2012)
Bruce Andrew (Collingwood: 1928-1932, 1934)
Andrew Graham (Carlton: 1983)
Graham Arthur (Hawthorn: 1955-1968)
Arthur Luke (Geelong: 1948)
Luke Donald (St. Kilda: 1990)
Donald Don (Richmond: 1917-1928)
Don Scott (Hawthorn: 1967-1981)
Scott Russell (Collingwood: 1990-1998, Sydney: 1999)
Russell Campbell (South Melbourne: 1978, 1980)
Campbell Heath (Sydney: 2010, Port Adelaide: 2013)
Heath James (Sydney: 1999, 2001, 2003-2004)
James Stewart (GWS: 2013-2016, Essendon: 2017-2018)
Stewart Duncan (Fitzroy: 1960-1964)
Duncan Lindsay (North Melbourne: 1925-1926)
Lindsay Ellis (Footscray: 1954)
Ellis Hicks (South Melbourne: 1956)

And what's the most you can do with duplicates, without repeating a player (using identical names for different players counts, but don't try pulling off the infinite Aliir Aliir chain)

 

[North park]

In Rounds 2-4, Carlton had a 1 point loss to Melbourne, a 2 point win against Geelong and then a 1 point win against Essendon.

So 3 consecutive games with an aggregate margin of 4 points.

What is the record for lowest aggregate margin in 3 consecutive games for a team:

a) where at least 1 game was a draw?
b) where no games were drawn? (ie. has a team ever had 3 consecutive 1 point games)

 

[RedmanWasHere]

What’s the biggest difference between the 2 highest scores from a round in VFL/AFL history?

 

[North park]

What’s the biggest difference between the 2 highest scores from a round in VFL/AFL history?

A quick search reveals two rounds where the difference was 100 points or more.

103 points - 1969 Round 2 - Carlton scored 30.30.210 against Hawthorn, with the next highest score North Melbourne 15.17.107

100 points - 1979 Round 17 - Fitzroy scored 36.22.238 against Melbourne, with the next highest score St. Kilda 19.14.128

 

[RedmanWasHere]

100 points - 1979 Round 17 - Fitzroy scored 36.22.238 against Melbourne, with the next highest score St. Kilda 19.14.128

That makes a difference of 110 points instead of 100.

This answers the question.

Thank you.

 

[North park]

That makes a difference of 110 points instead of 100.

This answers the question.

Thank you.

Went back a bit further (121 years to be exact) to find a larger difference.

117 points - Sectional Round 3 in 1899 - Geelong scored 23.24.162 against St Kilda 0.1.1. Next highest score was Fitzroy 6.9.45

 

[Connor7395]

On the other end: Largest difference between the round's lowest score and the round's second lowest score?

Best I've found:
59 points - Round 15, 1989: West Coast kicked 1.12.18. The next lowest was Brisbane Bears 11.11.77 and Footscray 10.17.77

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Thank you guys.

Next question.

What's Marlion Pickett's crowd average dropped to?

 

[footyfan1978]

Thank you guys.

Next question.

What's Marlion Pickett's crowd average dropped to?

Grand final crowd divided by number x, where x is the number of games Marlion has now played in his career now

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

1990 grand final and maybe 2004 as such and 1991 was at Waverley Park so that in itself a big asterix for grand final capacity.

The MCG northern half redevelopment affected 3 seasons and 3 GF's capacity, 2003,2004 and 2005. 2005 There was still one large area that wasn't finished and shut off to the public but, had a lot more seats than 2003 and 2004.

AFL Tables - Grand Finals

afltables.com

Year	Winner​		Score	Runner-up​		Score	Marg	Venue	Crowd

2006​	West Coast	4. 2 8. 7 10.10 12.13​	85​	Sydney	1. 4 4. 6 8.11 12.12​	84​	1​	M.C.G.​	97431​
2005​	Sydney	3. 0 6. 3 6. 5 8.10​	58​	West Coast	2. 4 2. 7 5. 9 7.12​	54​	4​	M.C.G.​	91828​
2004​	Port Adelaide	4. 5 6. 6 12. 8 17.11​	113​	Brisbane Lions	2. 2 6. 7 9. 9 10.13​	73​	40​	M.C.G.​	77671​
2003​	Brisbane Lions	5. 5 11. 7 14.12 20.14​	134​	Collingwood	3. 3 4. 7 9. 7 12.12​	84​	50​	M.C.G.​	79451​
2002​	Brisbane Lions	0. 4 4.12 8.14 10.15​	75​	Collingwood	1. 4 4. 4 8.10 9.12​	66​	9​	M.C.G.​	91817​

2001​

Brisbane Lions

3. 7 5.10 11.12 15.18​

108​

Essendon

3. 2 8. 6 9. 8 12.10​

82​

26​

M.C.G.​

91482​

What happened between 1983 and 1990? The crowd capacity in those intervening years dropped away but with the same 2 teams playing in 1983 and 1984 the crowd attending dropped 18k from 110k to 92k. Then once again same 2 teams went back up by 8k and hit 100k. Anyone know why this happened?

Year	Winner​		Score	Runner-up​		Score	Marg	Venue	Crowd

1992​	West Coast	2. 6 6. 8 11.15 16.17​	113​	Geelong	5. 5 8. 8 9.10 12.13​	85​	28​	M.C.G.​	95007​
1991​	Hawthorn	3. 4 7.12 12.15 20.19​	139​	West Coast	5. 1 7. 2 12. 5 13. 8​	86​	53​	Waverley Park​	75230​
1990​	Collingwood	2. 5 8. 9 11.10 13.11​	89​	Essendon	2. 2 3. 5 5. 6 5.11​	41​	48​	M.C.G.​	98944​
1989​	Hawthorn	8. 4 12. 9 18.13 21.18​	144​	Geelong	2. 0 7. 2 13. 7 21.12​	138​	6​	M.C.G.​	94796​
1988​	Hawthorn	4. 4 10. 9 14.16 22.20​	152​	Melbourne	1. 5 2. 8 5.14 6.20​	56​	96​	M.C.G.​	93754​
1987​	Carlton	3. 5 6. 8 10.11 15.14​	104​	Hawthorn	4. 2 4. 9 7.13 9.17​	71​	33​	M.C.G.​	92754​
1986​	Hawthorn	5. 6 8. 8 15. 9 16.14​	110​	Carlton	1. 5 4.11 6.13 9.14​	68​	42​	M.C.G.​	101861​
1985​	Essendon	6. 4 11. 9 15.11 26.14​	170​	Hawthorn	5. 1 9. 3 11. 5 14. 8​	92​	78​	M.C.G.​	100042​
1984​	Essendon	2. 4 3.11 5.15 14.21​	105​	Hawthorn	6. 1 8. 6 10. 8 12. 9​	81​	24​	M.C.G.​	92685​
1983​	Hawthorn	5. 6 12.10 16.18 20.20​	140​	Essendon	3. 0 4. 1 4. 3 8. 9​	57​	83​	M.C.G.​	110332​

 

[footyfan1978]

The MCG northern half redevelopment affected 3 seasons and 3 GF's capacity, 2003,2004 and 2005. 2005 There was still one large area that wasn't finished and shut off to the public but, had a lot more seats than 2003 and 2004.

AFL Tables - Grand Finals

afltables.com

Year	Winner​		Score	Runner-up​		Score	Marg	Venue	Crowd

2006​	West Coast	4. 2 8. 7 10.10 12.13​	85​	Sydney	1. 4 4. 6 8.11 12.12​	84​	1​	M.C.G.​	97431​
2005​	Sydney	3. 0 6. 3 6. 5 8.10​	58​	West Coast	2. 4 2. 7 5. 9 7.12​	54​	4​	M.C.G.​	91828​
2004​	Port Adelaide	4. 5 6. 6 12. 8 17.11​	113​	Brisbane Lions	2. 2 6. 7 9. 9 10.13​	73​	40​	M.C.G.​	77671​
2003​	Brisbane Lions	5. 5 11. 7 14.12 20.14​	134​	Collingwood	3. 3 4. 7 9. 7 12.12​	84​	50​	M.C.G.​	79451​
2002​	Brisbane Lions	0. 4 4.12 8.14 10.15​	75​	Collingwood	1. 4 4. 4 8.10 9.12​	66​	9​	M.C.G.​	91817​

2001​

Brisbane Lions

3. 7 5.10 11.12 15.18​

108​

Essendon

3. 2 8. 6 9. 8 12.10​

82​

26​

M.C.G.​

91482​

What happened between 1983 and 1990? The crowd capacity in those intervening years dropped away but with the same 2 teams playing in 1983 and 1984 the crowd attending dropped 18k from 110k to 92k. Then once again same 2 teams went back up by 8k and hit 100k. Anyone know why this happened?

Year	Winner​		Score	Runner-up​		Score	Marg	Venue	Crowd

1992​	West Coast	2. 6 6. 8 11.15 16.17​	113​	Geelong	5. 5 8. 8 9.10 12.13​	85​	28​	M.C.G.​	95007​
1991​	Hawthorn	3. 4 7.12 12.15 20.19​	139​	West Coast	5. 1 7. 2 12. 5 13. 8​	86​	53​	Waverley Park​	75230​
1990​	Collingwood	2. 5 8. 9 11.10 13.11​	89​	Essendon	2. 2 3. 5 5. 6 5.11​	41​	48​	M.C.G.​	98944​
1989​	Hawthorn	8. 4 12. 9 18.13 21.18​	144​	Geelong	2. 0 7. 2 13. 7 21.12​	138​	6​	M.C.G.​	94796​
1988​	Hawthorn	4. 4 10. 9 14.16 22.20​	152​	Melbourne	1. 5 2. 8 5.14 6.20​	56​	96​	M.C.G.​	93754​
1987​	Carlton	3. 5 6. 8 10.11 15.14​	104​	Hawthorn	4. 2 4. 9 7.13 9.17​	71​	33​	M.C.G.​	92754​
1986​	Hawthorn	5. 6 8. 8 15. 9 16.14​	110​	Carlton	1. 5 4.11 6.13 9.14​	68​	42​	M.C.G.​	101861​
1985​	Essendon	6. 4 11. 9 15.11 26.14​	170​	Hawthorn	5. 1 9. 3 11. 5 14. 8​	92​	78​	M.C.G.​	100042​
1984​	Essendon	2. 4 3.11 5.15 14.21​	105​	Hawthorn	6. 1 8. 6 10. 8 12. 9​	81​	24​	M.C.G.​	92685​
1983​	Hawthorn	5. 6 12.10 16.18 20.20​	140​	Essendon	3. 0 4. 1 4. 3 8. 9​	57​	83​	M.C.G.​	110332​

1983 dropped off distinctly. I think there must have been a change in standing room area policy and it be reduced or it just was Dons v Hawks did not draw as much crowd. Hard to say really but I suspect standing room numbers were reduced for health and safety reasons.

 

[North park]

1983 dropped off distinctly. I think there must have been a change in standing room area policy and it be reduced or it just was Dons v Hawks did not draw as much crowd. Hard to say really but I suspect standing room numbers were reduced for health and safety reasons.

Yes, standing room areas were removed and replaced with seats. I went to the 1983 Grand Final and stood in that concrete area behind the goals at the Ponsford Stand end. In 1984 that area had been replaced by seating. That by itself wouldn't explain the 18k decrease though - there must have been other reasons. I do recall a couple of instances around that time when there were large areas with empty seats because a club/s had forgotten about their Grand Final seat allocation and left some in a safe instead of selling them. Anyone recall the years?

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

1983 dropped off distinctly. I think there must have been a change in standing room area policy and it be reduced or it just was Dons v Hawks did not draw as much crowd. Hard to say really but I suspect standing room numbers were reduced for health and safety reasons.

Hawks v Dons played in 1983, 1984 and 1985 GF's. Crowds were 110k, 92k then 100k. So the same fans from the same clubs were in play as well as the neutrals.

North park's reply provides a logical reason why there would be such a big swing. Standing room replaced by seats might account for 10k of 18k reduction, other reasons for the other 8k, which then were corrected for the 1985 GF.

 

[North park]

Hawks v Dons played in 1983, 1984 and 1985 GF's. Crowds were 110k, 92k then 100k. So the same fans from the same clubs were in play as well as the neutrals.

North park's reply provides a logical reason why there would be such a big swing. Standing room replaced by seats might account for 10k of 18k reduction, other reasons for the other 8k, which then were corrected for the 1985 GF.

Looking at Grand Final attendances, they were generally around the 110k mark for the decade leading up to 1983. There was a big drop in 1984 before returning to 100k in 1985. That is the new capacity, with the largest Grand Final crowds since being 101,861 in 1986 and 100,042 in 1985.

 

[footyfan1978]

Hawks v Dons played in 1983, 1984 and 1985 GF's. Crowds were 110k, 92k then 100k. So the same fans from the same clubs were in play as well as the neutrals.

North park's reply provides a logical reason why there would be such a big swing. Standing room replaced by seats might account for 10k of 18k reduction, other reasons for the other 8k, which then were corrected for the 1985 GF.

Are you sure 83 was 110K ? I thought that was the 93K year...

 

[footyfan1978]

Double checked. Seems like it was.
Been a long time since two teams played each other three grand finals in a row.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Are you sure 83 was 110K ? I thought that was the 93K year...

Look at the Link, it is from AFL Tables as that's where I cut and pasted it from. I doubt they are wrong.

Page 1023 of the AFL Record Season Guide 2020 book. It confirms the 110,332 figure.

 

[Gordon Farkas]

Hawks v Dons played in 1983, 1984 and 1985 GF's. Crowds were 110k, 92k then 100k. So the same fans from the same clubs were in play as well as the neutrals.

North park's reply provides a logical reason why there would be such a big swing. Standing room replaced by seats might account for 10k of 18k reduction, other reasons for the other 8k, which then were corrected for the 1985 GF.

1984 was the first year that VFL Park members (now AFL members) had access to the GF. This was the result of negotiations to keep the GF at the G after the VFL had tried to move it to Waverley. The VFL Park members had access to a big section of the Northern Stand on a ‘walk up’ basis, however the number of members who were likely to turn up was greatly over-estimated. It was also a rainy day and members are generally wimps when it comes to weather conditions. On the day there were thousands of no shows and the top deck of the old Northern Stand was virtually empty. This issue was addressed the following year, hence the rise in the attendance to 100k.

 

[footyfan1978]

1984 was the first year that VFL Park members (now AFL members) had access to the GF. This was the result of negotiations to keep the GF at the G after the VFL had tried to move it to Waverley. The VFL Park members had access to a big section of the Northern Stand on a ‘walk up’ basis, however the number of members who were likely to turn up was greatly over-estimated. On the day there were thousands of no shows and the top deck of the old Northern Stand was virtually empty. This issue was addressed the following year, hence the rise in the attendance to 100k.

Sounds like mystery solved. Never knew that. Did not even know much about AFL membership even existing back then.

 

[Gordon Farkas]

I do recall a couple of instances around that time when there were large areas with empty seats because a club/s had forgotten about their Grand Final seat allocation and left some in a safe instead of selling them. Anyone recall the years?

I've heard that story:
At the 1975 GF between Hawthorn and North Melbourne each club had an allocation of tickets to sell. In those days the only way this could be done was to give the wads of tickets to the clubs for them to sell and hand over to the buyers. Unfortunately, Hawthorn had a wad of tickets fall down behind a huge filing cabinet or safe at Glenferrie Oval. The filing cabinet/safe was too big to move so the tickets remained unsold and on the day there was a patch of empty seats in the outer wing position.